To V20c as a lifelong DF roadie

[HeyHealy]

im a jump in the deepend kind of guy…haha, but i believe Im going to test ride another type of cruzbike this weekend, maybe one of those? thanks man

My recumbent journey began on my dad's old Rans V-Rex. I then bought a used Cruzbike Quest from a guy in Denver. Then bought a used Bacchetta Carbon Aero 2.0.

Last summer, I bought a new S40 and love it. Have put almost 1,000 miles on it and done a lot of climbing with it using just the single up front (super steep stuff too).

I haven't ridden the V20c, but might buy one in the next 12 months. The advantage of the S40 is that it's a more relaxed riding position, easier to chat with buddies on uprights. I've also heard the S40 might be better for climbing (easier to push back into the seat), but I don't know since I've not ridden the V20. I'm curious to find out though.

 

[chicorider]

Last year a friend of mine was sprinting up one of the many draw-bridges here...we call the metal surface "cheese-graters" for a reason. It was wet, he went down face first. It was gruesome, he's still not back. Those metal bridges, especially when wet, are a menace. Sorry to hear about your accident, can't have been easy. Congrats on coming back strong. Makes me wonder, per capita, are Cruzbike crashes more common than DF bike crashes...is anyone aware of any statistical analysis about this? I hate to hear these horror stories always, but I'm particularly concerned when I'm still not comfortable riding at 18mph+, and can't seem to do that in a very straight line yet.

I've only had one crash on my V20: a downhill on chattery pavement, grabbed just a little too much front brake in a left-hand turn, lost the front end, and slid to a stop on my left flank. Nothing broken, just a lot of road rash and public indecency. I knew that it was my error before I even hit the deck--just a little too much speed for the corner, and a little too much brake to scrub the speed.

That was a few years ago, and it taught me a lot about paying a little more attention to road surfaces--not to the point of being nervous, but to respect the conditions of the moment, especially in corners. A bit of water? Back off a bit. Some incidental gravel from the shoulder? Ease up some. Metal grates? Yeah, watch those. I don't think that the V is inherently less safe, but it does sometimes demand a slightly higher awareness, which, once tuned to it, is not really a bad thing.

The V handles well, and carves nice corners, but compared to a DF bike it isn't quite as planted in the twisties and it carries more speed. So I'm a little more mindful with how and when I use the brakes. Still, yesterday I descended a two-mile stretch of glass-smooth, gently curving asphalt, and Strava says I hit 62 mph. I am skeptical of that number (Strava has clocked me doing 90+ in the past), but it was a fast, no-braking descent, and I felt in control because the conditions were ideal and I was familiar with the road. The whole thing was hoot! Could a squirrel have run out in front of me? Yeah. Could I have blown a tire? Sure. But to entertain such questions too much is to eventually conclude that cycling on any kind of bike is just too risky.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Last year a friend of mine was sprinting up one of the many draw-bridges here...we call the metal surface "cheese-graters" for a reason. It was wet, he went down face first. It was gruesome, he's still not back. Those metal bridges, especially when wet, are a menace. Sorry to hear about your accident, can't have been easy. Congrats on coming back strong. Makes me wonder, per capita, are Cruzbike crashes more common than DF bike crashes...is anyone aware of any statistical analysis about this? I hate to hear these horror stories always, but I'm particularly concerned when I'm still not comfortable riding at 18mph+, and can't seem to do that in a very straight line yet.

No data to present as evidence, but I don't think it would be inaccurate to claim that Newbie DF riders switching to bents probably have more low speed crashes in the beginning of the switch, but that could just be my case.

Normally, I jump head first into everything without planning and just wing it on the way. Solve the biggest problems first and then just go down the list and solve the rest. My riding style and routine on my DF and now V20 has been virtually identical, which is just mash on the gas and try to hang on for as long as possible. Occasionally I do a smart thing and follow a plan for about half a ride, but that only happens every couple of months.

1 difference though is that I had stalled in performance on my DF for a bit just before I got my V20 due to neck and back issues, and the close calls I had on my DF didn't kick on my survival instincts since I arrogantly felt my bike handling skills and luck would keep me out of trouble. But on the V20 though, something just clicked. Maybe it was the new position, faster speed, or the understanding that the V20 isn't as nimble to bail me out of the trouble that my carelessness and faster speed was getting me into. Now during my rides I focus like Tool's drummer Dana Carey on absolutely everything. Not because of the danger though. Riding my V20 is Zen like. Therapy. Which part of the asphalt is smoothest? How fast am I going? How much power am I putting out? Are any of my clothes flapping? Is my lense sitting low enough on my face to prevent bugs from getting in? Is my helmet rubbing on the head rest bars. Is anyone going to reach the gate at the same time as me forcing me to either slow down to let them through or pass them before we get to the gate? What are my rpms and do I need to change gears? Am I simply pushing or also pulling the pedals? Is the bite down tube poking up in the wind or is it lying flattish on my shoulder? Is anyone catching up to me? Who is in front of me? How many are there ? Are they walking or riding? Are they serious riders I can expect to hold their line? Are they teenagers returning home after school and riding 6 abreast blocking the whole path? Are they Japanese mothers on a Mamachari with 1, 2 or 3 kids aboard and who will weave like the Tasmanian Devil eating through trees in a forest? Which side of the bike path are they on? Are they holding their line or kinda cutting across? Is their head stuck in their phone? Which is the safest side to pass on? Do they see me? Is there an exit approaching for a potential head on collision? If they suddenly jump in front of me and I have to bail should I lay it down or ride off the path into a field? Click my right earphone to advance to the next song in the playlist or the left one to play this song again? Is a baseball, football or frisbee approaching me from that field? Is this roadie going to try and latch on? He looks pretty fast so let me pass him quickly enough so he hopefully won't try to, or will have to spend so much energy trying to catch up that he won't hang on for long. What's my speed and power output now? Are my sleeves flapping yet? How's my position?

These things and more are my drums and like Dana Carey I use all of them continuously or infrequently depending on my surroundings and how they change. Once I get past the 25km marker heading up the river it gets less crowded so I can start removing some of those from the "thought playlist."

 

[gaspi101]

I've only had one crash on my V20: a downhill on chattery pavement, grabbed just a little too much front brake in a left-hand turn, lost the front end, and slid to a stop on my left flank. Nothing broken, just a lot of road rash and public indecency. I knew that it was my error before I even hit the deck--just a little too much speed for the corner, and a little too much brake to scrub the speed.

That was a few years ago, and it taught me a lot about paying a little more attention to road surfaces--not to the point of being nervous, but to respect the conditions of the moment, especially in corners. A bit of water? Back off a bit. Some incidental gravel from the shoulder? Ease up some. Metal grates? Yeah, watch those. I don't think that the V is inherently less safe, but it does sometimes demand a slightly higher awareness, which, once tuned to it, is not really a bad thing.

The V handles well, and carves nice corners, but compared to a DF bike it isn't quite as planted in the twisties and it carries more speed. So I'm a little more mindful with how and when I use the brakes. Still, yesterday I descended a two-mile stretch of glass-smooth, gently curving asphalt, and Strava says I hit 62 mph. I am skeptical of that number (Strava has clocked me doing 90+ in the past), but it was a fast, no-braking descent, and I felt in control because the conditions were ideal and I was familiar with the road. The whole thing was hoot! Could a squirrel have run out in front of me? Yeah. Could I have blown a tire? Sure. But to entertain such questions too much is to eventually conclude that cycling on any kind of bike is just too risky.

Very well said and informative, thank you. I look forward to getting sure-footed at higher speeds.

 

[gaspi101]

No data to present as evidence, but I don't think it would be inaccurate to claim that Newbie DF riders switching to bents probably have more low speed crashes in the beginning of the switch, but that could just be my case.

Normally, I jump head first into everything without planning and just wing it on the way. Solve the biggest problems first and then just go down the list and solve the rest. My riding style and routine on my DF and now V20 has been virtually identical, which is just mash on the gas and try to hang on for as long as possible. Occasionally I do a smart thing and follow a plan for about half a ride, but that only happens every couple of months.

1 difference though is that I had stalled in performance on my DF for a bit just before I got my V20 due to neck and back issues, and the close calls I had on my DF didn't kick on my survival instincts since I arrogantly felt my bike handling skills and luck would keep me out of trouble. But on the V20 though, something just clicked. Maybe it was the new position, faster speed, or the understanding that the V20 isn't as nimble to bail me out of the trouble that my carelessness and faster speed was getting me into. Now during my rides I focus like Tool's drummer Dana Carey on absolutely everything. Not because of the danger though. Riding my V20 is Zen like. Therapy. Which part of the asphalt is smoothest? How fast am I going? How much power am I putting out? Are any of my clothes flapping? Is my lense sitting low enough on my face to prevent bugs from getting in? Is my helmet rubbing on the head rest bars. Is anyone going to reach the gate at the same time as me forcing me to either slow down to let them through or pass them before we get to the gate? What are my rpms and do I need to change gears? Am I simply pushing or also pulling the pedals? Is the bite down tube poking up in the wind or is it lying flattish on my shoulder? Is anyone catching up to me? Who is in front of me? How many are there ? Are they walking or riding? Are they serious riders I can expect to hold their line? Are they teenagers returning home after school and riding 6 abreast blocking the whole path? Are they Japanese mothers on a Mamachari with 1, 2 or 3 kids aboard and who will weave like the Tasmanian Devil eating through trees in a forest? Which side of the bike path are they on? Are they holding their line or kinda cutting across? Is their head stuck in their phone? Which is the safest side to pass on? Do they see me? Is there an exit approaching for a potential head on collision? If they suddenly jump in front of me and I have to bail should I lay it down or ride off the path into a field? Click my right earphone to advance to the next song in the playlist or the left one to play this song again? Is a baseball, football or frisbee approaching me from that field? Is this roadie going to try and latch on? He looks pretty fast so let me pass him quickly enough so he hopefully won't try to, or will have to spend so much energy trying to catch up that he won't hang on for long. What's my speed and power output now? Are my sleeves flapping yet? How's my position?

These things and more are my drums and like Dana Carey I use all of them continuously or infrequently depending on my surroundings and how they change. Once I get past the 25km marker heading up the river it gets less crowded so I can start removing some of those from the "thought playlist."

Dude...that was like living in your brain for a little bit haha...I like your writing style! If we were not several oceans away, I have a feeling we'd be good riding pals. Thanks for the input, man. I also get into a "zen-like" state when riding my DF bike, but I don't usually think of all of these things you wrote...I don't have music either...my mind goes blank and it's just the suffering and the hum of the wheels on the road...I think I was almost in that state when I crashed...I didn't think of sitting up at the turn, I just mechanically tried to turn without thinking...my brain needs to rewire from DF riding...I was very agile on the DF bike...I would do wheelies one handed, track-standing, bunny-hopping, etc....none of that transfers, of course, but I think it's worse because if I'm not actively thinking about it, I have a false sense of confidence in my ability to control the bike at speed...So I think the solution is to take it slower, get more miles in at a slower speed, be more deliberate, and let my brain get rewired so when I get zen, my brain reacts appropriately.

 

[vosadrian]

I've been riding my V20 for about 18 months and 10,000kms. I took a fairly structured approach to learning and did low speed quiet street stuff for a couple weeks before venturing to a bike path at moderate speed for a few rides and then ramping up the speed there before hitting the roads with cars. I've only had a few low speed topples when first starting, and one time I toppled about 6 months in when stopped at lights on some slippery gravel and my foot slipped after being stopped for some time. That was embarassing as the traffic was high and the cars waiting near me got some amusement from it. Luckily I've never had a big one.

Once experienced the V20 is quick through corners.... but different to a DF. It can go as quick, but on the DF you can adjust your lines more easily as you can move you weight around over the bike. With the V20 you have to commit your lean angle well before the apex, and to adjust is difficult and can upset the bike balance. You can do it, and I have in emergencies (by lifting my head suddenly), but it was not pretty and felt like I was moments from disaster. If you know exactly what the corner is doing (can see through it or know it), the V20 is as fast as the DF.

Personally, although I can do it, I find interrupted riding on the V20 frustrating. For me, the V20 is more like a TT bike. I just want to lock into position and go without interruption. Sure I can stop at lights, but I hate using the V20 on roads with lots of stops. You just get your momentum and then have to stop again. Getting going on the V20 is more effort than the DF. It mostly requires pulling myself forward for the low speed start and then settling back, getting clipped in and building momentum at a slower rater than my DF (typically on the DF, I stand a few seconds and hit cruising speed very quickly). For me when I ride the V20 I stick to roads/paths I can ride with minimal interruption. This probably also reduces chance of crashes, as it is mostly just high speed cruising without many crossroads or tight corners. Admittedly, I am a bit of a speed junkie on any bike. I am constantly looking at my bike computer and trying to get the average speed up and beat my PRs. That may be the main reason for the way I ride the V20!

 

[Frito Bandito]

Dude...that was like living in your brain for a little bit haha...I like your writing style! If we were not several oceans away, I have a feeling we'd be good riding pals. Thanks for the input, man. I also get into a "zen-like" state when riding my DF bike, but I don't usually think of all of these things you wrote...I don't have music either...my mind goes blank and it's just the suffering and the hum of the wheels on the road...I think I was almost in that state when I crashed...I didn't think of sitting up at the turn, I just mechanically tried to turn without thinking...my brain needs to rewire from DF riding...I was very agile on the DF bike...I would do wheelies one handed, track-standing, bunny-hopping, etc....none of that transfers, of course, but I think it's worse because if I'm not actively thinking about it, I have a false sense of confidence in my ability to control the bike at speed...So I think the solution is to take it slower, get more miles in at a slower speed, be more deliberate, and let my brain get rewired so when I get zen, my brain reacts appropriately.

Thanks, glad you liked it hahaha. Well, if you or anyone here ever comes to Tokyo with your CB I'd be happy to ride with yaz. When I get to travel with my V20 then I will post it on my thread and hopefully be able to hook up with someone in the area for a ride or 3.

That is what my brain is doing when I am on any project. I wasn't good enough to do wheelies, track stands or the stuff on my DF bike that you did, I just focused on power, position and music without hitting anyone then. Where I always ride is basically a 43km stretch (26 miles) with no cars and only 1 traffic light, and quite smooth asphalt. So there is plenty of time to not have all that stuff bouncing around. Only then is when I actually listen to music, on the roads getting there I need to hear the traffic as well as see it.

If you haven't already noticed it yet, doing stuff like letting go of 1 side of the bar, sticking your hand out to grab a bottle, even as small as leaning your head to one side affects your direction more than on a DF. Balancing and turning will become 2nd nature quickly though since you already have the main wiring in place. In the beginning when my brain was rewiring itself panic alarms were going off at every twitch making headphones a nuisance.

 

[gaspi101]

I've

Well, if you or anyone here ever comes to Tokyo with your CB I'd be happy to ride with yaz. When I get to travel with my V20 then I will post it on my thread and hopefully be able to hook up with someone in the area for a ride or 3.

Same thing braddah! If you ever come to Miami, you’ve got a riding partner. what a great community this is, people from every corner of the world. thank you for your tips and great writing.

 

[M.J]

I was never more than a casual cyclist on upright bikes. I rode everywhere as a kid but only occasionally as an adult. I got my first recumbent three years ago, joined Strava, figured out I might be pretty fast, received a "sponsorship" V20 and have been hauling ass ever since : )
I ride my V everywhere, even in its current TT-optimized form. It's the perfect real road superbike. I even enjoy riding it in town.
All the talk about transitioning from fast upright riding to V20 riding makes me glad I started with the V. I'd like to ride one of the new carbon wonderbikes from Pinarello or Specialized just to see what they're like, but I'd never switch.

 

[gaspi101]

I was never more than a casual cyclist on upright bikes. I rode everywhere as a kid but only occasionally as an adult. I got my first recumbent three years ago, joined Strava, figured out I might be pretty fast, received a "sponsorship" V20 and have been hauling ass ever since : )
I ride my V everywhere, even in its current TT-optimized form. It's the perfect real road superbike. I even enjoy riding it in town.
All the talk about transitioning from fast upright riding to V20 riding makes me glad I started with the V. I'd like to ride one of the new carbon wonderbikes from Pinarello or Specialized just to see what they're like, but I'd never switch.

Sponsorship? Do you compete?

 

[M.J]

Sponsorship? Do you compete?

Yeah, when I can. Mostly for Strava crowns, but I compete at the Blue Streak TT in Ohio several times a year.

Blue Streak Time Trial - Powered by the Air Force Marathon

Join us at Wright-Patterson AFB for a cyclist's dream time trial loop course. All Blue Streak Time Trial events are open to the public.

bluestreaktt.com

I hope to get things together enough to do Bike Sebring at some point since there's always such a strong CB contingent there.

 

[gaspi101]

Yeah, when I can. Mostly for Strava crowns, but I compete at the Blue Streak TT in Ohio several times a year.

Blue Streak Time Trial - Powered by the Air Force Marathon

Join us at Wright-Patterson AFB for a cyclist's dream time trial loop course. All Blue Streak Time Trial events are open to the public.

bluestreaktt.com

I hope to get things together enough to do Bike Sebring at some point since there's always such a strong CB contingent there.

Sebring is about 3 hours from me...I heard about it recently...I'll be there next year for sure.

 

[vosadrian]

All the talk about transitioning from fast upright riding to V20 riding makes me glad I started with the V. I'd like to ride one of the new carbon wonderbikes from Pinarello or Specialized just to see what they're like, but I'd never switch.

Carbon wonderbikes are in their element in the hills (and by hills I mean rides with >10 minute >5% climbs with correspinding descents for much of the ride). The V20 cannot compete with them in that environment. I don't know of any riders serious about trying who can put out more power reclined than on a DF, and the carbon wonderbikes are half the weight. I suspect for most of the USA where most riders on this forum ride, the carbon wonderbike just does not make sense over a V20 (if you want to go fast).... unless you are into bunch riding, and then it makes a lot of sense.

I prefer to ride my DF. For most of my regular rides, the DF makes more sense, and I have to go searching for rides that suit the V20 better. I also like to ride in bunches with other DF riders. Unfortunately my lower back is not great for the DF, so the V20 is just much more comfortable for me, and that is why I ride it.

 

[M.J]

Right on.
I ride mostly flat stuff and am not into group rides, so I guess I'm the right fit

 

[cpml123]

Carbon wonderbikes are in their element in the hills (and by hills I mean rides with >10 minute >5% climbs with correspinding descents for much of the ride). The V20 cannot compete with them in that environment. I don't know of any riders serious about trying who can put out more power reclined than on a DF, and the carbon wonderbikes are half the weight. I suspect for most of the USA where most riders on this forum ride, the carbon wonderbike just does not make sense over a V20 (if you want to go fast).... unless you are into bunch riding, and then it makes a lot of sense.

I prefer to ride my DF. For most of my regular rides, the DF makes more sense, and I have to go searching for rides that suit the V20 better. I also like to ride in bunches with other DF riders. Unfortunately my lower back is not great for the DF, so the V20 is just much more comfortable for me, and that is why I ride it.

I think the unicorn is @RojoRacing Jason Perez. He won California triple crown with a V20 out climbing and of course going downhill over everyone else.

 

[vosadrian]

I think the unicorn is @RojoRacing Jason Perez. He won California triple crown with a V20 out climbing and of course going downhill over everyone else.

If the downhills are not technical (meaning you can mostly barrel down them full speed without braking), and the up hills are not a large percentage of the course or are not that steep (<5%), then the V20 could be quicker. Or the rider just might be so strong he could have done the same on a DF. I am more talking about rides that have you in the small ring <10mph for a large portion of the ride. That is where the carbon superbikes shine.

Most road bike racing that the carbon wonderbikes are designed for take place in high mountains in Europe. That is what the bikes are designed for. That is the environment where a bent would struggle to keep up with them and they are just fun.

I am not knocking the V20 here. I think for most people who ride a bike, a bent of some description would enable them to ride more efficiently and comfortably and the V20 is the ideal bent for those who like speed. I was just responding to MJ in saying he would like to try a carbon wonderbike. For him in his environment (and for most forum users here), it would not fair well. For me, coming from a road bike racing background with lots of bunch riding and living in a hilly area, I prefer riding my DF if not for my lower back pain. For flatter solo rides, the V20 is definately faster than my DF by some margin. But there are rides I do regularly on my DF that I have never done on my V20 because I fear they will involve walking up steep hills. Almost every DF ride I do has significant sections >15% incline and an overall elevation of 2500ft in 30 miles. If the descents were smooth and straight, I might get some time back on the DF, but they are bumpy with switchbacks, so I can't really use the strength of the V20.

If I did not have the DF racing background, I think things would be different. I just miss my fast bunch rides/races racing up hills to beat my mates and the most scenic riding for me is through the national parks where the hills are and the roads are quiet. The flat roads for the V20 are where I am with lots of traffic just trying to stay alive!!

 

[cpml123]

If the downhills are not technical (meaning you can mostly barrel down them full speed without braking), and the up hills are not a large percentage of the course or are not that steep (<5%), then the V20 could be quicker. Or the rider just might be so strong he could have done the same on a DF. I am more talking about rides that have you in the small ring <10mph for a large portion of the ride. That is where the carbon superbikes shine.

Most road bike racing that the carbon wonderbikes are designed for take place in high mountains in Europe. That is what the bikes are designed for. That is the environment where a bent would struggle to keep up with them and they are just fun.

I am not knocking the V20 here. I think for most people who ride a bike, a bent of some description would enable them to ride more efficiently and comfortably and the V20 is the ideal bent for those who like speed. I was just responding to MJ in saying he would like to try a carbon wonderbike. For him in his environment (and for most forum users here), it would not fair well. For me, coming from a road bike racing background with lots of bunch riding and living in a hilly area, I prefer riding my DF if not for my lower back pain. For flatter solo rides, the V20 is definately faster than my DF by some margin. But there are rides I do regularly on my DF that I have never done on my V20 because I fear they will involve walking up steep hills. Almost every DF ride I do has significant sections >15% incline and an overall elevation of 2500ft in 30 miles. If the descents were smooth and straight, I might get some time back on the DF, but they are bumpy with switchbacks, so I can't really use the strength of the V20.

If I did not have the DF racing background, I think things would be different. I just miss my fast bunch rides/races racing up hills to beat my mates and the most scenic riding for me is through the national parks where the hills are and the roads are quiet. The flat roads for the V20 are where I am with lots of traffic just trying to stay alive!!

Oh I agree. I have a V20 and go uphill slowly and leisurely. It's the unicorn like @RojoRacing Jason Perez who gives me hope!

 

[cpml123]

There is the dude Jason Perez @RojoRacing . http://www.caltriplecrown.org/2016/2016FinishersbyName.asp?Action=StageRace&Action2=Time&ClubID=
Winner of 2016 California Triple Crown with a V20.

 

[vosadrian]

I'm sure he is an incredible ride on whatever bike he chooses!

 

[Tinker]

You must have great balance and an agile mind to have taken on such a long ride on your 2nd day.
I'm firmly in the Wobble Around In The Parking Lot crowd, lol. Sitting up makes things easier, leaning all the way back into the seat is still kinda scary.

Did manage to ride the straights back home on my second day, including uphill, but cornering feels very volatile to me. I get locked into one direction, feeling like i've leaned the bike over too far. No trouble just putting a boot down at wobble-speeds, though