TTrike!!!!

Rick Youngblood

CarbonCraft Master
I'm laughing to myself while

I'm laughing to myself while reading a few of the lame comments over on BROL about the TTrike. And am at the same time restraining myself from commenting against them, as I don't want to see war break out over there on such a great post. However I do appreciate Thom posting some vary positive comments.

I see this as a great concept to introduce folks currently on trikes back into performance cycling. Or the newbie wanting to get into bents, but are intimidated on two wheels.

Three and a half years ago when the wife and I were looking into recumbents, we chose Catrikes. We were steered away from 2-wheeled bents (by the dealer), due to the instability. I showed my wife the video's of Maria and Jim, and she said I would have bought that over the trikes. Personally it would have saved me (what seems like millions). I see a market for the TTrike.

Some folks say they don't see the comparison between the TTrike and a tadpole or traditional trike. And I say, why would you, this is something different and in between. It's lighter and will be faster and corner better than any trike. Yes it it heaver than a 2 wheeled recumbent, but it's more stable too...and it can be converted between 2 and 3 wheels.

Ha, got that off my chest. That's why I love this board and it's community.
 

Rick Youngblood

CarbonCraft Master
Hmm...I was thinking, pulling

Hmm...I was thinking, pulling up to a stop and locking up the rear dual disc brakes, would that also lock the crank arms in place, keep them from rotating and therefore lock the tilt? Or am I missing something?
 

tiltmaniac

Zen MBB Master
Sortof, kinda.



It would lock the crank arms in place if the static friction of the rubber/wheel and road was high enough.
... but it isn't.

Net net, you need either a system which gives mechanical advantage to balance (like my design or that of Jetrike) or a tilt lock, else the wheels just skid and you fall over.

Now, does locking the brakes help? Yea, sure. You might be able to do a track-stand like that more effectively. But don't count on it holding you up :)
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
The Black Max used a friction

The Black Max used a friction shifter to activate the disc brake tilt lock, so the amount of tilt friction is adjustable from zero for normal riding, so there is NO interference with the normal leaning to take a corner at high speed, to 50% while riding at less than 10kph so you can still turn corners without tipping over, and 75% to 100% when stationary at a stop light.

Having the rear brake activate the tilt lock could be dangerous in an emergency braking condition when in a corner or just before a corner as the tilt is locked.
 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
I believe the Black Max

I believe the Black Max builder, forgot his name, ended up taking the tilt-lock brake off and just relied on stiction after some more extensive use.

In other words he keep the hinge point or points a bit tight so if you were standing next to the trike just holding it upright the thing didn't just flop over immediately if you let it go. The tilt hinge or bearing would stick just a bit before weight, etc overcame the friction and then it would move.

-Eric
 

mzweili

Guru
self-centering

just to throw a possible solution in this discussion:
replace that BB by a ROSTA element.
http://www.rosta.ca/
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
just to trough a possible

just to trough a possible solution in this discussion:
replace that BB by a ROSTA element.
http://www.rosta.ca/

Huh. That's not crazy at all. I can imagine it might not work out (or need to be tuned to rider weight), but definitely worth a look.
 

snilard

Guru of hot glue gun
From my point of view tilt

From my point of view tilt lock is useless. It will only add weight and complexness. Maria Parker is showing hands free ride in the video. What is huge benefit from my point of view.
With tilt lock rider will crash in first curve when he forgot to unlock tilting.
 

Apollo

Well-Known Member
Apparently, tilt-lock is

Apparently, tilt-lock is going to be included according to the grape vine.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Marc,
And that's why we put


Marc,

And that's why we put up with you Engineering types; somebody out there has an idea of an elegant ways to do these; let's hope they are on the design team. That one is probably worth emailing to Jim if Robert doesn't chime in that he saw the post.
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
 Maria Parker is showing

Maria Parker is showing hands free ride in the video. What is huge benefit from my point of view.

I think this is something of a red herring as I as well as many others (and probably Maria) can ride these bikes easily with no hands.
 

tiltmaniac

Zen MBB Master
Tilt lock or balance assist

Tilt lock or balance assist is great for climbing really steep and/or long things, especially if carrying weight, and for starting/stopping.

So basically it is great for low speed stuff.
 

Wannabe

Well-Known Member
watch the video of maria closely &....

Watch the video closely. On the S3 the left wheel leads but on the V the right does. I wonder why?

Also this would really be great on the Quest!


I wonder where the idea came from?

this was on Bent rider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99tyVdE9ADA&feature=youtu.be


 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Watch the video closely. On

Watch the video closely. On the S3 the left wheel leads but on the V the right does. I wonder why?

I assume that when you put the trike on the ground, one of the wheels is up front, but it probably doesn't matter why. So I'd expect that half the time you'll have the right one up front.
 

KiwiGuy

Well-Known Member
Outstanding innovation

Hats off to Jim and Maria for the continuing innovation at Cruzbike.

Given the reportedly large market for recumbent trikes in the North American market (compared to recumbent bicycles), it makes sense to tap that market if possible.

To my mind this TTrike innovation has several advantages over regular recumbent trikes - the dominant one being lying on your back at a height above the road that is below the wheel arch of a SUV. How anyone feels comfortable doing that is beyond my comprehension. The higher rider position, and thus increased visibility to motorists, is a huge win for the TTrike- unless you do all your riding on MUPs. In addition, I suspect the TTrike will be lighter and faster.

Even if this innovation draws any interest at all from only 5 - 7% of trike buyers (the innovators and some of the early adopters), it's going to make a big difference to Cruzbike and build a critical mass for the future.

A mechanism for ensuring stability when stopped and at low speed, and incorporation of rear braking, need to included in this innovation for it succeed - and I take it as a given that both will be well addressed in the final product. Once released, I don't see much immediate direct competition for Cruzbike. The chosen approach is perfect for front-wheel drive recumbents - and there are not many of them outside Cruzbike.

Not a direction I expected, but it is clever thinking.

Kind regards...
 

will_rifkin

New Member
Great stuff, been working on same thing

Development of the TTrike is something that I have been looking forward to ... and working toward on my own for the past few years. You will see some entries in this forum on my only partially successful attempts.

Tried the crank mechanism with offset wheels a year or two ago. I used the original bottom bracket of the mountain bike frame of my Cruzbike conversion as the pivot point (a very short wheelbase resulted). Had conceived of it myself, but then saw Vuong's Python design, which confirmed the idea.

Investigation of wheel offset for motorcycle sidecars revealed that the offset distance of the rear wheel axles needs to be less than 10-15% of the entire wheelbase to prevent scrubbing on turns. Hence, short crank arms are needed. One can just drill holes in regular cranks to fit the wheel axles closer to the bottom bracket axle (now that I have a drill press, of course).

Tilt locking is tougher than it looks. I have tried several strategies. The distance of the centre of mass from the pivot point for the rear wheels is key. My butt is 50-60 cm from the pivot point of the mountain board truck that I am using now on the rear of my Cruzbike. Make that 40cm from the pivot axis on the perpendicular.

Even the friction of a disc brake is not enough. Next step for me is splines with the same disc brake mechanism. Am working on this for my setup with the mountain board truck attached at the rear dropouts.

Offsetting the cranks arms by 90 degrees in the TTrike will not give satisfactory results. Same issue - position of the centre of gravity, not the position of the centre of the pivot.

What gives stability to the setup over a bi-cycle seems to be the intertia of two rear wheels rotating around the bottom bracket bearing. So, when you lean, you are actually trying to pick up one wheel and rotate the other toward the ground. If you use smaller, lighter wheels, you should get less stability.

It would be interesting to experiment with wheel size. The ease of rotation of an assembly with very small wheels could help to negate the potential loss in effective rolling resistence from using a smaller wheel on a bumpy surface. Small wheels would also spin up to speed faster and weigh less overall than larger ones.

My mountain board truck has springs that resist leaning. They provide too little support near the vertical to be of use in keeping me upright at a standstill. That is Hooke's law: force = displacement x a constant. Small displacement means not much force.

For stability at standstill, I may try a mountain bike air shock with a lockout mechanism. However, they are not an absolute lock, from what I have read.

Finally, the appeal of this sort of leaning three-wheeler may be for new owners, those who find recumbents unstable. It cuts the learning curve to practically nothing. That is a big plus when you are trying to get an infrequent rider to fork over $1,500+ for a new bicycle. The appeal to me is the ability to ride slowly in crowded areas and to leave my feet in the pedals at a standstill - urban riding.

Sorry about the long entry. Been working for a while on this one on my own.
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
Mr Black Max removed the tilt

Mr Black Max removed the tilt disk due to it limited his lean to one side, as he only used half of a disc.
He tightened up the wheel tilting bushes to create the friction to hold the bike ONLY upright when stationary.
It was a racing trike, so he did not stop at stop lights very often, and his backside was that close to the ground that he could use his hands to stabilize him, as the two wheeled low racers do!
 

Wannabe

Well-Known Member
I can hear it now... Jim

I can hear it now... Jim Parker calling Mr. Will Rifkin! Awesome entry Will. Bicycle/ motorcycle dynamics are very VERY complex!
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
Cruzbike is definitely on the

Cruzbike is definitely on the correct path for an addition to a Cruzbike Silvio, Vendeta or Quest to convert it into a FWD MBB Tilting Delta trike in 10 minutes that handles like a 2 wheeled Cruzbike when moving fast.

A stable delta trike when going slower than 10 kph (6 mph) with the tilt lock fully or partly activated.
It is lighter than most trikes.
Has a more efficiency and much shorter drive train.
With a 550 mm (22") high seat it will be much easier to sit on, and especially climb off, compared to a normal trike with a seat 200 mm (8") off the ground, especially if you have crook knees and are slightly overweight.
Being at 550 mm seat height, the visibility to drivers will be the same as a DD bike.
You don't have to unclip at stop lights, so a much faster take off.
Three 700C racing wheels have much less rolling resistance than normal trike 16" or 20" wheels.
A tilting delta trike corners at 50% faster speeds than a tadpole trike, as seen on this video of Tim Hick's the Black Max. http://wn.com/2009_hpra_indy_recumbent_trike_ and with little tyre scrub and lost speed.

I think that the I Lean is the wrong arrangement, and a modified Black Max is the correct arrangement.
Following are the reasons why the I Lean tilting system has problems.


SCRUBBING the rear Tyre
http://cruzbike.com/fwd-mbb-delta-trike
Scroll down until you see the i Lean python delta trike with its BB crank, and especially the rear right hand tyre that is worn out due to scrubbing as the Centre Line of the front wheel cannot intersect with the rear two wheels as shown on.

http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0020/0020.html.

It is like the rear tyres on a tri axle semi trailer nearly being ripped sideways off the wheels when the semi does a tight U turn, as the trailer pivots around the front of three axles! The noise is like a nail being dragged across a blackboard.

TILT arms to allow for 45 degree lean

Another article on the i Lean suggests that the crank lengths be reduced to 90 mm down from 175 mm, to reduce the scrubbing.
All tilting trikes that I have seen on the internet, are designed to lean over to 45 degrees for fast tight corners i.e. 55kph on a 22 m radius corner, so the minimum tilt crank length is 150 mm for a 300 mm wide track, with the crank vertical.
It would be better with 160mm so the right wheel is always behind the front so that the brake and tilt lock cables do not get twisted.
Changing the cranks from 180 degrees separation to 90 will reduce the effective length but also lower the rear end 51 mm which would upset the bike steering geometry, and require the BB crank being raised 51 mm above the rear axle height. It is too short for the trike to lean over 45 degrees.

WEIGHT BALANCE for handling

Moving the BB crank pivot of the rear wheels approx. 300 mm aft of the existing rear axle, will reduce the TWO rear wheels with a 80 kg rider from 40 kg down to 15 kgs instead of 20 kg if the wheelbase is not changed.

Both Black Max (?? mm) and the Raptor trike (200 mm) have the rear wheels further aft.
Black Max had handling problems as the rear would loose traction on corners, as there was not enough weight on them. He was going to shorten the wheelbase to improve the handling, but has stopped updating his web site.

TORQUE induced into the rear stays due to impact loads

The TTrike reaction arm puts a vertical point load into the middle of the carbon Fibre rear stay of the Silvio which is NOT stiff in this plane and would bend it, which would then bend the rear upper seat stay strut.

The max deceleration due to the rear brake is 0.1 g before rear tyre skidding, so the design disc brake torque would be approx. 42 n.m. and this is the only torque the Silvio V2.0 onwards rear stays would be designed for.

By moving the centre of the two rear wheels approx. 300 mm aft of the existing axle location, the torque on the rear suspension when hitting a sunken water main manhole cover (600mm dia. So both rear wheels drop) and 3 G acceleration creates 40 kg*9.83*3*0.3 = 354 n.m torque around the old rear axle location.
This is 354/42 = 8.4 times the design disc brake torque and I think the rear stays will collapse.

One option is to extend the torque arm to the main frame, so it takes the torque reaction, OR move the wheels so the two wheels pivot point is in line with the old rear axle.

Instability under braking

At maximum braking when the rear wheel(s) lift off the ground, using the front brake only, 0.66 g deceleration can be achieved, with 280 n.m disk or rim brake torque.
If breaking hard with the front brake at 0.5 g, then the load on the two rear wheels drops from 35 kg/ 2 wheels down to (1-.5/.66)*35 = 8.4 kg/ 2 wheels.
If the rear brakes are applied at 40 n.m, then the front (left)of the two rear wheels will lift the rear of the trike 40/0.16 = 250 n (25 kg.f) uplift, so only the left wheel touches the ground, and the right is in the air.
This will tip the trike over sideways!!!

I think this is why I have only seen I Lean trikes with NO rear brakes.

Proposed alternative to I Lean is a modified Black Max with the two wheels in line with the existing rear axle

https://web.archive.org/web/20130801105546/http://fleettrikes.com/
The Rapto Trike is a refined version of the Black Max racing trike, but the Black Max has been well documented, even with his failures, and both are more refined and geometrically correct compared to the iLean (TTrike).
Two 140 mm disc braked wheels of the Black Max are 720 gm lighter than the Sturmey Archer 70 mm drum braked wheels of the Raptor.

Both should be quick release wheels.
The Raptor uses a 70mm drum brake? as the tilt lock and central pivot which is innovative.



The Black Max uses a 1" steerer stem as the central pivot, which is longer than needed to use the threaded end and the thicker end for the bottom bearing.
This could be replaced with a much shorter 25.4 mm hollow tube, so the tilting SHS beam is closer to the wheel CL to reduce bending moments.


The solid M12 axle bolt needs to be replaced with a hollow M15 quick release through bolt.
The solid M12 wheel tilt bolt needs to be replaced with a hollow 19 mm od hollow shaft with impregnated plastic bushes.
The brakes and parallel link posts should be vertical up, instead vertical down to reduce air drag, and make storage in the back of a car without the quick release wheels easier and more compact.

I apologize for being negative about the i Lean system, but it has the chance of hurting someone due to the braking lifting one rear wheel.

 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
Florida HPRA TTrike racing results!


I really appreciate all the great comments and suggestions. Please keep them coming.
This TTRIKE prototype gave us a great way to test the concept of a drop-in tilting bike-trike converter.

There is nothing like racing to put a design to the test. Below is a link to all the results:
The first day of racing was on the Crit course, and the second day of racing in the Velodrome.

2015 Trike racing results

I raced my red V20 with the prototype adapter and won 6 of the 7 trike races. Troy Timmons edged my 30.44 mph mark out with a 30.69 mph effort in the 200m velodrome race. This was the first time I've ever had a recumbent in a velodrome and only the second time I've ever been in a velodrome. And the first time was a bad experience on an upright fixie, still have the scars as a memento.

The 20-lap race in the inner track was interesting. I was slow coming out of the start, since everyone else had both feet clipped in already. I mostly just stayed to the outside and gradually passed everyone. The TTrike cornered very well, although I'm not particularly talented at taking corners fast. In the warm-up on this small oval track, I found having the leading wheel on the inside eliminated any scrubbing during the fast turns.

The bottom line is the Vendetta TTRIKE is very fast. We had two engineers/designers with us and they got to see it first-hand and concur with many of the ideas already presented here. Keep them coming!

The TTRIKE device as we installed it actually propped me up a bit more vertical than normal. It could have easily been setup to make me more reclined, and faster. Add on disk wheels and I could have gone even faster. So in addition to adding stability, this design offers great potential for speed. I switched back and forth on the same V20 frame and competed in the same events and was just a little slower on the TTRIKE vs. the V20-bike with a full disk wheel in the rear. These HPRA results can give some objective comparison to the bike vs. Ttrike performance.

We got a lot of video at the event, which we'll share later. We are racing long-distance at Sebring this weekend, but not on the TTRIKE.

Jim

 
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