V20 Vs Slyway Ultra

[Karl42]

The price is very attractive for the frameset—I’m in contact with the brand's owner. According to the catalog, it's 3125 Euro including all taxes, with shipping to Poland costing €155. The price is a game-changer. I would really love to be able to buy a Cruzbike in Europe without the shocking shipping or duty costs.

I agree. The V20c frameset on the Cruzbike website would currently cost over 6000 Euro including shipping and duties, almost double the price of the Slyway Ultra frameset. As much as I love my V20, it is a tough sell to prospective new Cruzbike riders here in Germany because of this high price.



By the way, I don't understand the calculations for duties and taxes shown in the screenshot here. Importing a frameset into the EU should cost 19% VAT and 5% import tax on the base price + shipping. I don't understand how this adds up to over 6000€, and by my calculations it should be much less. @Robert Holler , @Maria Parker, or someone else from the Cruzbike team, could you verify this?

It seems that your shopping system assumes a 15% import tax, but that is the rate for a complete bike, while bike components only incur a 5% import tax.

 

[Karl42]

I just checked the website of the german tax office (here, in german), and according to them, there is the following import rate:

Bicycles, complete
Customs duty: 10.0%
Import sales tax (VAT): 19.0%

Bicycle parts
Customs duty: 4.7%
Import sales tax (VAT): 19.0%

With that, ordering a V20c framekit to Germany should cost 5477 Euro at the current exchange rate. Still expensive, but certainly not more than 6000 Euro.

 

[Damien]

This is todays calculation for this same item but in PLN (Polish currency).

In Euro:
Frameset 4249 Euro
Shipping: 329 Euro
Duties: 686 Euro
Taxes: 1211 Euro
Total: 6746 Euro

In Poland we have 23% VAT where in Germany 22%. Duties are equal for all European Union countries.
Interesting is shipping cost. To Germany is much more cheap - I wondering why.

And final price is 6746 Euro vs 6015 ...

 

[Karl42]

That still doesn't add up correctly. For Poland, it should be this (assuming the import tax for bike parts is the same at 4.7% instead of the 15% that the Cruzbike shop system uses):
Frameset: 4249€
Shipping: 329€
Subtotal: 4578€
4.7% Import Duty: 215€
23% VAT on Subtotal + Duty: 1102€
Total: 5896€

 

[Damien]

Thanks Karl for pointing this out. Something seems to be not correct. But I am not a taxes expert - maybe we don't know how calculate this in proper way.

 

[Karl42]

Well the german tax office website is pretty clear that the import duty for bicycle parts is 4.7%, and that's what I have always paid on my previous orders from Cruzbike. That their shopping system tries to calculate and collect the taxes in advance seems to be new, and doesn't seem to work correctly yet.

 

[Robert Holler]

I agree. The V20c frameset on the Cruzbike website would currently cost over 6000 Euro including shipping and duties, almost double the price of the Slyway Ultra frameset. As much as I love my V20, it is a tough sell to prospective new Cruzbike riders here in Germany because of this high price.

View attachment 17741

By the way, I don't understand the calculations for duties and taxes shown in the screenshot here. Importing a frameset into the EU should cost 19% VAT and 5% import tax on the base price + shipping. I don't understand how this adds up to over 6000€, and by my calculations it should be much less. @Robert Holler , @Maria Parker, or someone else from the Cruzbike team, could you verify this?

It seems that your shopping system assumes a 15% import tax, but that is the rate for a complete bike, while bike components only incur a 5% import tax.

Hmm. Hey all this is something I believe we can look into. I am not an expert on the Shopify thing and I believe (?) much of those calculations are baked into the system.... but I am not 100% sure. We can check it out though!

Of course we would rather you all be on the superior machine and indeed import fees are a real bummer in this regard.

 

[Karl42]

Hmm. Hey all this is something I believe we can look into. I am not an expert on the Shopify thing and I believe (?) much of those calculations are baked into the system.... but I am not 100% sure. We can check it out though!

Could it be that the V20c frameset is incorrectly labelled as a complete bike in the shop system? It should be classified as "bike parts" or "bike frame", as those have a lower import duty rate than a complete bike.

 

[Maria Parker]

Thanks so much for flagging this. We do love our international customers and appreciate that our owners want other other people in Europe and the UK to affordably have a Cruzbike. It turns out that the company that handles collecting our international tarrifs had made some changes to their program that made erors in the tax estimates. We are working with them now to try to straighten this out. Thanks so much!

 

[Karl42]

I put some other bike parts in my shopping cart and they got the correct import duty rate of 4.7%.
So I believe it's just the frameset that is incorrectly classified in your system.

 

[Boreen bimbler]

Thanks so much for flagging this. We do love our international customers and appreciate that our owners want other other people in Europe and the UK to affordably have a Cruzbike. It turns out that the company that handles collecting our international tarrifs had made some changes to their program that made erors in the tax estimates. We are working with them now to try to straighten this out. Thanks so much!

Imagine trying to sort something like this out with Giant, specialized or some other massive faceless company. It's nice to be in a niche where business people can still be human.

 

[Karl42]

Thanks so much for flagging this. We do love our international customers and appreciate that our owners want other other people in Europe and the UK to affordably have a Cruzbike. It turns out that the company that handles collecting our international tarrifs had made some changes to their program that made erors in the tax estimates. We are working with them now to try to straighten this out. Thanks so much!

So far nothing has changed. The V20c frameset is still calculated at 15% import duty instead of 4.7%, which causes a price difference of about 500$. Did you already hear back from the company that handles your international tarrifs?

 

[Bill Wightman]

I put in a request for quote plus delivery of a Slyway ULTRA Road frameset and Stefano at SlywayInnovations sent back a quote of € 4092,78 (this cost included some vendor cuts and drilling for boom sizing). I am not actually sure if there are any other import/export costs. Ordered the frameset about a month ago. I am rounding out my stable of Giant TSR diamond frame, Priority 600X trekking, and Cruzbike V20. I don't ride the Giant DF really, but I should. The Slyway ULTRA required buying all the other stuff like wheels, hydraulic brakes, derailleurs, etc. and I will build it up when the frameset gets here. It is only shipped as a frameset currently. Part of the appeal is the essentially monocoque stiff carbon fiber frame from bow to stern. The seat is adjustable from 13.5 to 25 degrees but not in realtime. I love tinkering with aerodynamics and 3D printed items, so I just needed a new platform (sandbox) to play in. I love the V20 still, but I just retired and my hobby budget says I can afford more toys. I am not defecting, just expanding the options.

 

[Jeffers]

A V20 vs. Slyway Ultra comparison would be awesome !

 

[Bo6]

I put in a request for quote plus delivery of a Slyway ULTRA Road frameset and Stefano at SlywayInnovations sent back a quote of € 4092,78 (this cost included some vendor cuts and drilling for boom sizing). I am not actually sure if there are any other import/export costs. Ordered the frameset about a month ago. I am rounding out my stable of Giant TSR diamond frame, Priority 600X trekking, and Cruzbike V20. I don't ride the Giant DF really, but I should. The Slyway ULTRA required buying all the other stuff like wheels, hydraulic brakes, derailleurs, etc. and I will build it up when the frameset gets here. It is only shipped as a frameset currently. Part of the appeal is the essentially monocoque stiff carbon fiber frame from bow to stern. The seat is adjustable from 13.5 to 25 degrees but not in realtime. I love tinkering with aerodynamics and 3D printed items, so I just needed a new platform (sandbox) to play in. I love the V20 still, but I just retired and my hobby budget says I can afford more toys. I am not defecting, just expanding the options.

Looking forward to your impression and analysis of the differences. I have to admit I looked at a Slyway before purchasing a V20.

 

[Bentsoup]

A V20 vs. Slyway Ultra comparison would be awesome !

Ditto, and bump. Anyone rode both and can compare?

 

[Bill Wightman]

Ditto, and bump. Anyone rode both and can compare?

Let me first say that this is a Cruzbike forum so I am reluctant to say anything not technical regarding any other brand. I have now ridden over 1000 miles on the Slyway ULTRA. Orientation wobbles were gone in about three to four miles. The heal strike is real but only happens practically at really low speeds when trying to make a sharp turn and pedal simultaneously. You either need enough speed going into a tight turn (and hold crank arms ~horizontal) or you will have to stop and do it manually, otherwise the front wheel will kick your shoe out of the pedal causing no other adverse issues. The power transmission during starts and sprints is very efficient (for me at least) because the upward curvature of the seat at the shoulders (seat pan adjustable from 16-25 deg, mine is 20) allows you to push directly into the pedals without significant upper body effort (similar to barbell weight lifting) and with finger light grip on the handlebars. This means for me that I am basically just doing alternating horizontal one leg presses and find it very easy to sprint from a red light or climb hills (live in flat Houston so no real extended climbing yet) and keep up with any upright bike. There are no comfort issues on longer rides. I will add that my hands are not fatigued after a long ride. On the V20 I pull on the bars too much and wear out my fingers, should be pushing. On the ULTRA my knees like the simple requirements of just mashing the pedals and no circular type pedaling. Also high speed sessions are relatively relaxing because there is very little upper body involvement except direct line load at the shoulders from the pedal. The chain is equal to three upright chains minus ~10 links. Have not had any (waxed) chain issues even over big bumps and the transmission efficiency is essentially identical to uprights despite a single idler on the tension power side. Had to change a flat on the rear. No problem. The V20 and ULTRA are very similar in speed for the same effort from my experience so far. Very stable at high speed, my current max is ~40 mph down an overpass. (edited to fix pedal spelling)

 

[Frito Bandito]

Yeah, it is hard these days to even write anything other than glowing reviews of an item without coming off as a hater, regardless of how much time you spend in crafting your words.

Anyway, I like what you wrote about turning while pedaling, especially with a bike that has heel strike possibility. There is 1 ascending switchback on my usual route which is right after the 1 and only traffic signal on the whole route. As you know on a MBB there is a limit on how much you can turn the bars and still be able to pedal. Well, on this pretty tight switchback I can turn and still accelerate in it without any problems. I can only imagine that leaning the same amount on the Slyway would result in being able to turn and accelerate the switchback just as effectively.

The triple chain weight wouldn't really be a deal breaker for me on the flats in Houston, but if I had to nitpick then that would be the low hanging fruit. Then again, the extra weight issue could at least be argued that once you are up to speed the weight helps to keep your momentum.

I am not sure if you have been doing any aero testing with the MyWindSock (MWS) app, but here is what my V20 in the current setup with a 0.190-0.200 CdA has been spitting out. FWIW I am about 5'9" and 178lbs with wide shoulders...


You can see exactly in the CdA where I made changes in my position to improve my aerodynamics, but sadly how it also reduced my ability to put out power. I dont know how much faster over this same course I'd be at 170lbs, but at least you have a bit of the basics to roughly see how your Slyway compares to a V20 aerodynamically.

 

[Bill Wightman]

but at least you have a bit of the basics to roughly see how your Slyway compares to a V20 aerodynamically.

I always tell people that the V20 (also ULTRA) has an aero drag less than a good time trialist and your real numbers show that.

I am riding short fast ride groups that run between 24 and up to 33 mph and the effort expended is no different at the legs than on the V20.

I don't want to lower the seat angle below 20 because it can also lead to digestion/reflux if you are not careful. The upward curve of the seat at the shoulders on ULTRA helps substantially with that as I have not had a single problem.

Like you said, when the seat angle is lowered you lose power (-6.9% power versus -25% CdA) but it looks like it might worth the effort to try to train the power back in the lower position considering the large CdA drop. Not sure if that is easy or hard. In other words I think you must be going faster now despite a (temporary?) loss in power. Your data below. We have to remember that power required is proportional to the cube of the speed, all else the same.

 

[Frito Bandito]

That's awesome Bill, thanks for that data sheet! I really wish I could train my legs in the lower seat angle. My knees, ankles and back have no issues at all but I just can't get below a 22 seat angle because of reflux and vision problems. A curved seat might help though.