Vendetta or Silvio?

[Jake514]

Silvio and/or Vendetta Riders,

I have been reading this site and trying to educate myself - there certainly is a lot of information available. Also thanks to Eric, LAVS, and others for the great tutorials on building your Cruzbikes. It feels like we are right there beside you building it.

Probably like many others, I am torn between building the Silvio or Vendetta. I am slightly leaning to the Vendetta since I have never heard anyone say "I wish I had a heavier bike," or "I wish I had a slower bike."

Me:

• 60 yrs. old
• 6' 2," 205 lbs.
• ~44 ½" X-seam
• Average experience on DF but only 10 minutes of recumbent experience on a Bacchetta Corsa
• Riding terrain around here is mostly flat; any rolling hills start 40 miles away
• The vast majority of my past DF pleasure riding is for exercise on suburban streets with low traffic count. I have not entered contests or group rides in the past, however I may try an occasional group ride in the future but this would be very seldom and will not be my main riding pattern.

Questions to all:

1. Is there anything you would do differently if you were building your Silvios or Vendettas again?
2. Would I fit one or the other better? I think I read a long torso would work/fit better on a Vendetta, but I do not know what qualifies as a long torso.
3. Any other comments or suggestions?

Your thoughts and experiences with your Cruzbikes will help this 'bent beginner as I am still even learning the name of the various bike parts.

Thanks in advance.

 

[John Dorlon]

As an owner of a Silvio 1.5

As an owner of a Silvio 1.5 and Vendetta 2.0, I think a couple of questions you might want to ask yourself are:

1) Would you like to have a suspension? Only the Silvio has a suspension, and it does make a difference! It does not feel squishy at all and it really does help smooth out rough roads.
2) Which seat angle do you think you would prefer? 20 degree seat angle (Vendetta) vs 27 degree seat angle ( Silvio 2.0 ) vs 45 degree seat angle (Silvio 1.0 or 1.5, if you can find one used)?

The Silvio is a little heavier than the V, but the Silvio does not feel "heavy" when you ride it, especially if you are mostly riding in the flats. Make no mistake, the Silvio is a fast bike. I am about 2 mph faster overall on my Silvio than I was on my DF. It also happens to be very comfortable. The Vendetta is a ver y fast bike. I think of a luge every time I am on it and start down a hill! It's just not quite as comfortable as the Silvio (in my opinion) but still more comfortable than a DF.

The handlebars are higher on the Silvio than they are on the Vendetta. Part of the reason that I got a Vendetta is that I wanted to have my hands lower while riding. One thing I realized after getting lower handlebars on the V is that handlebar mounted mirrors on the Silvio are closer to the center of field of view when looking forward down the road. As a consequence, on the V, I find that I have to be more deliberate about watching the mirrors for traffic from behind. On the Silvio, the mirrors are just more 'noticable' when riding. But then again, the V is faster.

Your last point in your "me" description makes me want to steer you towards a Silvio since it sounds like you are more of a 'pleasure rider' than race. John's sizing chart here http://cruzbike.com/how-choose-your-vendetta-setup says that you will fit either one. I have seen the "long torso" comments like you mention, and like you, I am not sure what qualifies as long. Maybe that comment doesn't apply to Silvio 2.0 as it did to the 1.0 and 1.5. Perhaps John Tolhorst could clear that up.

For me, the jury is still out on which bike I like best, but that may not even matter since to you since my Silvio is not the latest model. There are things I like and dislike about both bikes, but the scale weights heavily on the "like" side for both of them. I am very pleased with both.

-John

 

[John Tolhurst]

The long torso question arise

The long torso question arise with the seat back of the CB-kit, Sofrider and Quest, when that seat back is lowered down further than about 50 degrees.

Silvio 1.0 and 1.5 have 45 degrees and 25mm added to the seat back,
Silvio 2.0 and Vendetta have much lower angles and 75mm added to the seat back.

Its unusual for me to hear from someone that the seat is too short for the intended recline. I'm confident the seats are sized optimally.

 

[Jake514]

John and John,
Thanks for the

John and John,

Thanks for the replies and information - much to think about.

 

[Ivan]

As compared to Vendetta, the

As compared to Vendetta, the handlebars are higher on Silvio 2.0 only when NOT using the chainstay extension. I have built my Silvio 2.0 with the 100mm chainstay extension and the position looks very much like Vendetta. With the chainstay extension, the aerodynamics of Silvio 2.0 would be very close to that of Vendetta. I would recommend this extension to Jake given his height and the fact that he likes Vendetta positioning),

Jake, I chose Silvio 2.0 over Vendetta as it's cheaper, my first recumbent (like you, I have only trialed on a Bachetta), elegant suspension for long distance comfort, and slightly more upright for urban city riding with heavy traffic. The 45 deg angle of earlier Silvio's did not appeal to me. I am still building mine and will post a full build write-up soon which will help you with more information for your decision...probably early next week as the weekend is full, but I will have Monday to work on the bike.

If I lived in an area with less traffic perhaps I would gone for Vendetta. Either would be absolutely fabulous.

 

[Jake514]

Ivan,
Thanks for the insight

Ivan,
Thanks for the insight and opinion on the extension - it does sound like I would prefer it. Good luck with your build and I look forward to see info on your build.

 

[Taveray]

Thank all of you active Forum

Thank all of you active Forum contributors. I have learnt a lot from reading your comments (on many issues).
I am keen to try a Cruzbike. I'm considering either a Vendetta or Silvio 2 and would like to hear the advice of those who've considered these models.
I have been riding DFs for 35 years (semi-competitively) but not for the last 3 years (on doctor's advice). I've tried a Silvio 1.5 for 20 minutes only, so I struggled with peddling. My riding territory is moderately hilly (Adelaide Hills, South Australia) and I'd like to get back to riding with my old group, who are not particularly social and don't wait for slower riders. In short, I therefore favour the Vendetta because past experience suggests that an extra 2 kg is quite important. (I am willing to go from 7kg to 10kg to get the "straighter" body position of the V or S2, but not sure about the additional 2kg.) So, some of the time I'd be riding with the group of 6-8 folk, but mostly they drop my on the climbs (my weak point). With the V (or even the S2), I think I might catch them on the downhills and flats. A key question is how much more difficult the V is to ride in a group than the S2?
Other issues that could be important:
1. Comfort: the S2 suspension sounds neat, but I've never had a comfort problem on DFs. My reason for changing is to reduce kinking of the femoral? artery, not comfort. That's why I need a "straight" body position, even if it means a lower BB position. I'd definitely go for the Small V if I get one.
2. The S2 ability to add the extension piece, as Ivan has done, is also neat. But with an X-seam of 38.5"(97.5cm), I might not be long enough for that.
So I'm very keen to hear your thoughts. John T is suggesting the S2 in preference to the V, so perhaps general ease of handling, e.g. in a group, is the critical aspect that he is concerned about. Incidentally, I realise either will involve a few months familiarising, with the V a bit more so. For that, I have a good car-free circuit close by.

 

[Jeremy S]

Philip, my only comment is

Philip, my only comment is that adding a chainstay extension to the Silvio may compromise the straighter body position you are after. The bike should fit you fine without an extension, and your BB should still be significantly higher than (for example) mine due to your shorter x-seam.

 

[Ivan]

Phillip, if your X-seam is

Phillip, if your X-seam is 38.5" you could fit the chainstay extension but only just. Your boom would be horizontal (mine has a slight downward slope) and your handlebars would be very low and near your body. It would rather tight in the cockpit if you were overweight due to the handlebar location. I would guess a BMI <25 would be recommended. So overall I would say no chainstay extension for your X-seam as with the chainstay extension the Silvio is similar to a medium Vendetta in sizing.

For your desire for speed on flats and lighter on hill climbing, sounds like the V would suit you. If your guys aren't very social then will the additional 7 deg for Silvio really matter to them? You could just stay at the back of the pack. I got the Silvio as I wanted higher view for traffic. Note that the small V has a "kink" in the boom that the M and L sizes do not. There are not many pictures of the S in the wild...

 

[marshall2389]

What is different between the

What is different between the V sizes? Same frame, different front triangle?

 

[Eric Winn]

For the Vendetta, yes one

For the Vendetta, yes one frame but I believe it is one of a small, medium or large chainstay in combination with either a small (kinked) boom or a regular boom. I think there is just one size for the slider and you trim it if necessary.

Did I get it right John?

-Eric

 

[Jeremy S]

FYI, on the Vendetta product

FYI, on the Vendetta product page, if you click past the product photographs, you will get to diagrams showing the different "triangle set" options.

 

[Taveray]

Vendetta/Silvio

Thanks for all your comments. I picked up a lot of useful pointers from them. If I went for the Silvio, I thought I'd start without the extension, but hopefully I'd be able to leave the cables long enough so that, if I got serious about minimal wind resistance, I could add the extension later.
Has anyone used either model riding in groups, e.g. small peletons? I suspect either model wouldn't be quite as safe in groups as on a DF, but then you don't need the wind shelter as much as on a DF. Is there much difference between V and S2 in that respect?

 

[ReklinedRider]

Group riding/drafting on a 'bent

Taveray i agree this has been a great thread. I don't currently have a Cruzbike but should as of tomorrow (I bought Randy Spann's heavily modified Sofrider--come on FedEx!!). So, I can't speak to Silvio or Vendetta in a pace line but i bet they would be similar to my Bacchetta. I just stay a bit further back than i would on a DF and off to the side a foot or so and get a great draft and feel quite safe. The downside is the DF riders really can't get much if any draft behind me. Oh well

If i like the MBB FWD i guess i will be saving up for a V or S. Time will tell.

About the chainstay extension.... I don't know about on Cruzbikes but on other recumbents it feels to me that the seat height to bottom bracket height difference of the Bacchetta is a more powerful position (as opposed to my old Rans and certainly compared to my Hase). So having the chainstay extension like on Ivan's S2 or the inherent V position seems an advantage to me.

Just my 2cents. Everybody pray for me learning to ride the Sofrider!

KM

 

[Taveray]

I went for the Silvio in the end

I decided to opt for the Silvio to improve my ability to view the scenery better, be higher and therefore more visible and for extra comfort. The fact that it was John T's initial recommendation when I told him how I planned to use it was also an important influence. Incidentally, when I remeasured, I found my X-seam is 42.7", not 38.5" per the post above. I don't know how I made that blue. Just as well I didn't order a small V! I've done a deal with the local bike shop to try a 2x11-speed Ultegra groupset (and swap it if it doesn't work out). I hope it does as I love the range and front and rear options. I'm going with Mavic Ksyrium Equipe wheels as I found the 9/10-speed Mavic hubs are long enough to take a Shimano 11-speed cassette.

I've borrowed a friend's old Roulandt (semi) recumbent - to get the feel and a bit of practice and leg fitness. I've put the Speedplay peddles on it (that I've bought for the Silvio) - mainly to get them adjusted and get used to them on an "easier-learning" recumbent than the S! Having to lengthen the chain twice in my attempts to get the leg length right reminds one of the elegance of the Cruzbike design. Despite that, I must say it is a great pleasure to be back on a bike after 3 years of pining from medically-imposed exile from them.

I don't think the build will be as elegant as Ivan's, but I'm confident that it will do an excellent job for me - when it comes!

 

[Ivan]

Hey Philip, congrats on the

Hey Philip, congrats on the coming bike. Two of the newer thoughts I have on my build since putting on more miles...

1. If you are getting the chainstay extension (I would at your X-seam), consider the shorter 165 cranks. This gives you another cm clearance with your thighs/handlebars. I am okay with my 170 cranks but I would get 165 if I got them again. If you are not getting the chainstay extension, then the handlebars are higher and you get more clearance anyway so not much of an issue.

2. For the cassette, I figured I would get 11-32 to give me a nice high spinning gear and for speed, similar gearing to my road bike. However, as I am now easily going faster than on my DF so if possible I would get a cassette with a 10 instead, especially if I was getting an 11 speed cassette like you.

It took me 2 weeks to get onto the road, then 4-6 weeks to get up to then exceed my DF speeds. Enjoy yourself!

 

[Jeremy S]

Ivan, do you know your

Ivan, do you know your typical cadence? I've been told that it's hard to max out 53x11, at least on flat ground. I estimate that at 53x11 with a 90 RPM cadence, you would be going about 35 mph, which seems pretty fast to me.

 

[Ivan]

Definitely not maxing out on

Definitely not maxing out on the flats! Only on downhills. You are right, my cadence is lower on Silvio than on my DF. I just feel more efficient that way. On my DF I am usually 80-85. Not sure on Silvio. I seem to remember a post/video that Maria likes a slower cadence than usual. Others are different...

 

[Ian Smith]

Cadence

Some find that, especially when on that learning curve (do we actually stop learning?), higher cadence can cause a sort of speed wobble if you're not careful. I tend to find that It's easier to ride with a little power on the pedals and at a slightly slower cadence. I find it more like climbing stairs. The stairs at work are no issue now that I'm getting my 'bent legs.

Philip, I'll keep an eye out for you. David Sowden is in the US (somewhere around Aspen I think) having his SKIing holiday right now (i.e. Spending Kids Inheritance). It will be good to see the differences between Slim's 1.5 and the 2.0. Be prepared for the comments, the stares, the laughs, the snide remarks and the acknowledgement that you're "That bloke on that funny bike". My wife is getting questions like "Your husband is not the Lycra set that sits in the cafe on Sunday mornings is he?". I guess we're a different crowd when my 6yo daughter and I ride to a prestigious private school every day, her on her pink Micargi Jetta and me on my CB.

 

[marshall2389]

My cadence on my Quest is

My cadence on my Quest is significantly higher than on my DF.