Wondering about the fastest, while wide-range, drivetrain

Tor Hovland

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I leave the clutch disengaged. I thought maybe that would give better shifting, but I didn't actually know for sure.

I just ordered a ZTTO HAG-5 alignment tool from AliExpress, but it will take a month to get here, so that second wheel method is a blessing. Your link is broken, but I Googled and found this. I'll definitely try it.

 

Tor Hovland

Well-Known Member
OK, I think I have this set up as good as I am going to get it now.

I first fixed the hanger alignment using the second wheel trick:

PXL_20240406_091424634.jpg

It wasn't horribly off, but a little.

Unfortunately, shifting didn't improve. How can that be? I think the explanation is that I have my chain shorter than it's supposed to be, in order to not lose too many gears on the small chainring. The derailleur cage is designed in such a way that as it slackens (on smaller cogs), the upper pulley comes closer to the cassette, like an automated B-screw adjustment. Due to the short chain, my derailleur doesn't get enough slack.

So I adjusted the B-screw more, bringing the pulley closer to the cassette until it shifted properly. The cable is as tight as it can be without catching on the large cog when in second gear. Now shifting seems to work properly from the smallest cog to the lower gear, and also back the other way. And I can still use the largest cog, even if the chain is sandwiched between the cog and the pulley.

The MTB cage I bought seems to be identical with regard to the placement of the upper pulley, so I don't think it's going to improve this. But I'll give it a try next week. If nothing else, it will allow me to use a slightly longer chain, which should improve things.

Also, it seems like switching to the 11-42 might be a stretch. However, it should work if I also switch to a standard 53-39 crank. Why would I want to do that? Because I do have a 10-42 cassette waiting to be put on, which would give me a higher top gear. If there was such a thing as an 11-speed 10-36 cassette, it would be great, but there isn't. There is, however, a 12-speed 10-36. But 12-speed has even more finicky gearing than 11-speed, so I'm not going that route.

Another potentially crucial detail here is that my 11-36 is not Shimano, but SunRace. The 11-42, on the other hand, is Shimano.
 
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Alanczik

Member
got some wondering about the fastest, while "enough-rang" drivetrain for my bike too
I've built my v20 as a time trial bike for the flat/rolling hills roads around, with a 39x53 Shimano crankset and an 11x32 11-speed rear cassette. as I'm not going to climb hard mountains (or so I thought..) but the more I fall in love with the bike, the longer rides I take, the more challenging roads I go...
I'm ok with the climbing low range, It is the top range that I am concerned about. as on decants the 53x11 top gear is ok for about 55 kmh (about 35 mph) above that and im spinning freely (which is really scary at that speed), its not that i want to go faster, it's that i fill more in control when I'm still slowly pedaling against the resistance.
thought going up to 55 teeth on the big ring, or even 58...
did anyone here tryed it?
 

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
Just in case, each 1-tooth jump on the big ring is going to give you about 1kph higher speed, while a 1-tooth jump (from 11t to a 10t) on the cassette is going to give you about 5kph. With that said, First off I am running a 12-speed 11-30t cassette now. I went from the 50/34t my V20 came with to a Shimano 105 52/36 with a 4iiii left side power meter. Then I got a good deal on a set of 53/39 chainrings for my 105 cranks. Since my wheels have a Shimano freehub I can't take advantage of SRAM's 10t ring on their cassettes. Finally I came across an incredible deal on a 54/40t Dura Ace cranks without a power meter. When the conditions are right on my flat course my rpms are low enough for me at 56 years old to be comfortable in the mid 50kph range, but still trying to click to a higher gear to be comfortable doing 60kph. To make it worthwhile, if you are going to go with a larger chainring from a 53t I would say that a 55t is the absolute minimum jump since each extra tooth is only going to add about 1kph speed at the same rpm. This would only be 2kph faster than your current setup. The 54t chainring I have now just barely fits my 2x SRAM Force front derailleur. It is literally at the end of the derailleur stalk and while I might be able to make a 55t fit, to go any larger would likely only be possible by removing the front derailleur and turning my V20 into a 1x system. To shorten all of what I just wrote, changing from a 53t to a 58t will give you an extra 5kph, but you'll almost certainly have to turn your V20 into a 1x system.


I saw and missed a 61t Miche crankset with 170mm crank arms on a local auction, and that still hurts lol. That crankset would have required a little bit more run up to tackle the small ramps on and off my local course, but that big jump would have definitely been worth it.
 
Agree with @Frito Bandito in the preferred being getting a 10T on the back. Increases on the big ring are not that big.

I am 52-11 as my fastest. I can pedal up to about 60kph, but there are times I want 65-70 (down hill of course). I can't really get there with larger front ring without losing my abilty to climb up my street. If I could get 10T on the back though.

Is there a 11 speed cassette that has 10T or is it only 12 speed cassettes?
 

Karl42

Well-Known Member
I'm late to this thread, but I have also been through a long process to find a gear setup that works for me. I'm mostly interested in climbing steep hills with my V20, so I've been focusing on the lower end of the gear range.

I like to use the online tool "Bicycle Gear Calculator" at https://ritzelrechner.de for visualizing and comparing gear setups.

When I got my V20, the recommended stock configuration at that time was a 50x34 crank with 165mm crank arms, and a 11-32 cassette. So I got the same specs. With that, I immediately got severe knee pain after climbing hills.
config_50x34.jpg
V20 stock setup from 2018: 50x34 to 11-32, 428% range.

On my previous recumbent I had been riding 152mm cranks for years, so I switched over to those. I also changed the small front chainring to a 30t. So at that point, my configuration was 50x30 to 11-32, total range: 485%, lowest gear ratio 0.938 with 25.3 gear inches.

I was using this for quite a while, but using short cranks means that I have to spin faster instead of harder. When comparing the 152mm cranks to my 155mm cranks, I found that the shorter cranks needed one gear lower for the same climbing effort. Tackling extremely steep hills (15% to 20% grade) still wasn't really possible with this setup, so I switched the small front chainring to 26t. Now I had this setup:
config_50x26.jpg
50x26 to 11-32, total range: 559%, lowest gear ratio 0.813 with 21.9 gear inches.


This is what I used for my trip through Norway in the summer of 2022, so it worked quite well for several thousand kilometers. Climbing sustained efforts at 12% grade with a loaded touring bike was hard, but possible:
norwayV20.jpg

Back home, I tried out a 24t front chainring to see if it would improve going up my local 20% grade hill. This switched the lowest ratio to 0.750 with 20.2 gear inches. This gear was actually too low, and my front wheel would just slip on this hill. With much practice it might be possible to develop a smooth enough cadence for this to maintain traction, but instead I went back to the 26t chainring that I'm already used to.
Also, with 50x26 to 11-32, the capacity of my SRAM RED 22 derailleur was already being exceeded, meaning that having the chain on the 26t front ring would make the chain too slack on the small cogs of the cassette, and shifting into unsupported gears would increase the risk of the chain coming off.
To address this, I changed the large front chainring to a 46t, sacrificing some range on the upper end, but gaining a full range of usable gears, and better shifting, because with this I could make the chain a bit shorter for better chain tension.
This is what I have currently on my bike:
config_46x26.jpg
46x26 to 11-32
Total range 515%,
lowest gear ratio 0.813 with 21.9 gear inches for 9.43 km/h at a cadence of 90 rpm,
highest gear ratio 4.18 with 113 gear inches for 53.9 km/h at a cadence of 100 rpm.



Getting the same range from a 1x setup is possible, but would require something extreme like a 10-52 cassette, and the gears will have much larger steps:
1x_comparison.jpg
1x setup with same climbing gear and 520% range.


Also, here is my setup compared to the 53x34 to 11-42t setup mentioned by @Tor Hovland in post #89.
He got very similar climbing gears, and a bit more range at the top:
compare2x.jpg

Bear in mind that crank length needs to be considered for comparing gear setups, as the longer cranks have a larger mechanical advantage, making the effective gearing a bit lower. So for climbing, Tor's setup would actually allow steeper hills. That's one reason I'm considering to switch from my 152mm cranks to 155mm cranks. If they don't give me knee pain, they would improve my climbing gear.

Finally, as discussed in this thread, installing extreme gear ranges beyond the original spec of the drivetrain might require some compromises, and some tinkering such as changing the gear cable ratio somehow, and mixing road and MTB components.
Having the 515% range requires a 41t capacity, which works quite well with my SRAM RED 22 derailleurs without requiring a Jtek Shiftmate, a Wolf Tooth Roadlink, an aftermarket derailleur cage, or anything like that, so I have one less point of failure to worry about, and can use a pure setup with only road components.
My compromise instead is running a 46t chainring instead of something larger, which reduces my upper gear range. But in practice, even now I only use the largest gear when going downhill, so I can live with that. My setup with the unmodified SRAM RED 22 front and rear derailleur and a 11-32 cassette is possibly lighter than other setups with a beefier derailleur and a much larger cassette, and replacing the cassette might be cheaper.
Here is what my current setup looks like with the 46x26 chainrings:
DSC00305.JPG

DSC00306.JPG

Shifting to the large-large gear (46t - 32t) is possible and usable:
DSC00307.JPG

Shifting to the small-small gear (26t - 11t) is not practical but possible, and retains enough chain tension:
DSC00309.JPG

So I'm quite happy with the current setup. It shifts very well, has finely spaced gear steps, and it suits my style of riding. I wouldn't mind a bit more range at the top for going downhill faster, but in practice, pedaling above 55 km/h is rarely necessary for me.
 
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Alanczik

Member
So I thought maby going a different way, instead of getting bigger chainring, maby I'll change to 145 m"m crank arms (instead of the 170 I have now)
That should make my gears "harder" (as I saw In some article I can't find right now...)
 
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Shorter cranks does effectively lengthen the gearing (you can do higher cadence), but it is more about biomechanics, so make sure they work for you. I run 155 and want to try 145. I find short works well for me.
 

IyhelM

Active Member
@Karl42 like you I’m more concerned with climbing with loaded paniers than pedalling downhill, nice to see a 46-26 setup can work, will give it thoughts…
By the way, what size are your banana bags? I have the Racer but I’m going to upgrade to something bigger.
 

Karl42

Well-Known Member
@Karl42 like you I’m more concerned with climbing with loaded paniers than pedalling downhill, nice to see a 46-26 setup can work, will give it thoughts…
By the way, what size are your banana bags? I have the Racer but I’m going to upgrade to something bigger.

The possible downside of my setup is that the small front chainring requires a triple crank, and these are getting harder to find (but you can still buy them at various places). If you are using a standard 110BCD double crank, the smallest front chainring that is easily available is 33t. However, with new cranks, several options exist for 46x30. Paired with a 11-36 cassette, this gives a range of 502%, almost as much as the 515% from my setup with 46x26 to 11-32:

compare46x26_vs_46x30.JPG

I have the Banana Racer for shorter trips, and the Banana M for long tours.
@Henri has tried the Banana L bags on his V20c. They work, but they are a bit too large and easily rub on the wheels.

06_IMG_1145.jpg
Empty Banana L on the left, stuffed Banana M on the right.
 
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