A sign of things to come?

Brad R

Well-Known Member
If you are replacing the top on a T50, you might as well replace the bottom as well. Go with sealed bearings for top and bottom that way.
That is a good idea.

But what I want to know (preferably without taking my T50 apart to measure) is whether the steer tube is 28.6 mm and whether the headset is a 34mm pressfit. If the viscoset improves stationary wheel flop and helps with steering stability, it might be worth the effort for when my son uses the bike.
 
I will most likely wait for a thru-axle design before I get a V20. I know I am missing out for the time being but I've got plenty of bikes to choose from so I'll be OK. If they announced that there were design changes coming, I doubt they would be able to sell the current model without price cuts or other incentives.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
After market for both bikes, S40
frame -kit and my new frame-kit V20. They both use the same unit:
ZS44/28.6/H13.5/BLACK
MODEL BAA1068K
Not cheap but a direct bolt-on (off) that is very obvious once installed. Installation takes about 15-mins or so.

So I finally got my Viscoset, but it didn't fit, so I must acquit!

My new V20 head tube top bearing is only 41mm OD, not 44mm. So it looks like the Viscoset won't work on the current production V20. :(
 

OregonJohn

master of tinkering
So I finally got my Viscoset, but it didn't fit, so I must acquit!

My new V20 head tube top bearing is only 41mm OD, not 44mm. So it looks like the Viscoset won't work on the current production V20. :(


Viscocet offers that unit in different configurations. Return it and ask for the other size, I did.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
I found this quote from Cane Creek regarding an IS41 headset:

“Unfortunately we don’t have an IS version of the Viscoset. As for the second part of the question, I asked Jim Morrison, our Principal Design Engineer and all-around headset guru and here is what he gave me:

‘Repacking a normal headset bearing with heavy grease will add damping, but really not that much. It’s a low-risk proposition, though, so it would be worth trying. I’d try to source some Nye Lubricants Fluorocarbon Gel 868H or VH (heavy or very heavy), carefully pop the seals, clean out as much grease as possible with a solvent, then pack as much damping grease in there as possible. The bearing will feel damp-y in your hand, whether that’s what you’re looking for at the handlebar is a personal preference kind of thing.’

Technical FAQ: Drivetrain friction test, steerer-damping headsets – VeloNews.com

I think I will try the damping grease.
 

Greg S

Well-Known Member
After market for both bikes, S40
frame -kit and my new frame-kit V20. They both use the same unit:
ZS44/28.6/H13.5/BLACK
MODEL BAA1068K
Not cheap but a direct bolt-on (off) that is very obvious once installed. Installation takes about 15-mins or so.
@OregonJohn What year is your S40? I purchased this identical headset for my 2019 S40 and it doesn't fit. It seems unlikely that Cruzbike changed the head tube diameter so I'm really puzzled.

I am not at home for the next few months and don't have a set of calipers here but I disassembled my S40 and removed the top headset piece - not even close.

So as I said, I'm really puzzled. I'm hoping that there's something obvious or stupid that I've done/not done (I've installed dozens of headsets over the years) or that your S40 is a different model year or some other rational explanation. I really wanted this to work.

Thanks.
 

Greg S

Well-Known Member
@OregonJohn What year is your S40? I purchased this identical headset for my 2019 S40 and it doesn't fit. It seems unlikely that Cruzbike changed the head tube diameter so I'm really puzzled.

I am not at home for the next few months and don't have a set of calipers here but I disassembled my S40 and removed the top headset piece - not even close.

So as I said, I'm really puzzled. I'm hoping that there's something obvious or stupid that I've done/not done (I've installed dozens of headsets over the years) or that your S40 is a different model year or some other rational explanation. I really wanted this to work.

Thanks.
To answer my own question: this is most definitely not the correct headset. Hopefully this will save someone else the trouble of ordering the wrong thing.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
I found this quote from Cane Creek regarding an IS41 headset:

“Unfortunately we don’t have an IS version of the Viscoset. As for the second part of the question, I asked Jim Morrison, our Principal Design Engineer and all-around headset guru and here is what he gave me:

‘Repacking a normal headset bearing with heavy grease will add damping, but really not that much. It’s a low-risk proposition, though, so it would be worth trying. I’d try to source some Nye Lubricants Fluorocarbon Gel 868H or VH (heavy or very heavy), carefully pop the seals, clean out as much grease as possible with a solvent, then pack as much damping grease in there as possible. The bearing will feel damp-y in your hand, whether that’s what you’re looking for at the handlebar is a personal preference kind of thing.’

Technical FAQ: Drivetrain friction test, steerer-damping headsets – VeloNews.com

I think I will try the damping grease.

So I had to wait for the spare bearings to come from Alibabba, then for the polar vortex snow to melt, and for my enthusiasm to thaw as well. But I finally got to try riding my V20 with damping grease in the headset bearings. I decided to go with Nye 767, which is rated down to 0C (32F). It is thicker than the 868VH, which is rated to -20C. But my working temperature rarely goes below 0C, so I think I'm good.

First I had to degrease the new bearings. I flushed them with WD40, then soaked in alcohol. Then I had to re-pack them with the thick grease. It's hard just to squeeze it out of the tube. Then the bearing is hard to turn once you get some in. But the good news is that it's so sticky that as long as you keep a bead in the gap, it just gets pulled in when you turn the bearing. So it's not that hard as long as you have some patience. But wear nitrile gloves.

With the factory grease, the bearings turn easily by hand, but do not spin. When degreased, they spin freely. With the Nye grease, they turn only very slowly with considerable effort.

Made up in the headset, the resistance is very dependent on the axial preload from the headset cap screw. I found that when I cranked down the headset as tightly as I dared, much tighter than I would usually tighten it with a regular greased bearing due to binding, there was a lot of resistance, but no binding. I backed it off slightly, so that there was still enough resistance that the steering would stop and hold position after a few damped oscillations if you swung it unloaded. The bearing still moves freely, but slowly with effort, so it's not binding or sticking. I think this is because the grease is so thick and sticky that it stays in-between the balls and race so there is no metal-to-metal contact.

I have not ridden in a while, so my memory may be faulty. But my first impression is that the ride was more like a Cadillac. The steering resistance was noticeable if you noticed, but not objectionable. The bike goes where you point it; but if you start a turn, it wants to keep turning. I assume this is because the trail force cannot overcome the resistance. This is not a problem, just a noticeable difference. It also seems a lot less twitchy, so the mental workload was less. I could almost ride hands off, and could easily ride on the tops, which I didn't dare do before. Again, these are just first impressions after a single uncontrolled experiment by a recent convert. So YMMV.

I think the next thing I will try is to take a couple of spare bearings apart, throw away the ball spacers, and kitbash them into a bearing with a full compliment of balls, and put this on the crown race bearing to increase its load bearing capacity. I don't think it's necessary to do this for the top bearing since the lower one is more heavily loaded because the weight adds to the preload (that's why some MTB have larger bottom bearings).

I'm not sure if I'm overloading the bearings, so I threw the stock bearings in my ditty bag just in case they get crunchy.
 

Bill Wightman

Well-Known Member
I was very near feeling reasonably comfortable on my S40 when I decided to try adding the Cane Creek Viscoset, knowing full-that the new CB’s were going to have them as standard equipment at some point, the addition of the Viscoset put me over the top, I immediately felt far more in control of peddle-steer and handling over-all. Well worth the money!
This sounds like something that might be well suited for people who go to narrow/aero handlebar configurations. Sounds like it will damp the high frequency down and slow the wheel turn during a side-wind gust. If you have no problems currently, then it sounds like it probably reduces upper body fatigue on long rides. Intriguing.
 

Robert Holler

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks! So is that the correct part for any recent V20? Mine is a 2017

Gary,

Unfortunately the Viscoset is not compatible with any version of the V20 - past or current. This is because the headset on the V20 is integral to the tube itself - the bearing races are in the head tube - so there is no ability to press cups in. The Viscoset will only work with bikes that have press-in cups.

Robert
 

Gary Hudson

Active Member
Gary,

Unfortunately the Viscoset is not compatible with any version of the V20 - past or current. This is because the headset on the V20 is integral to the tube itself - the bearing races are in the head tube - so there is no ability to press cups in. The Viscoset will only work with bikes that have press-in cups.

Robert
Ah. Thank you Robert for the prompt reply.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
Yes, the V20 takes 41.0 x 30.2 x 7 mm 45 x 45 deg. IS41 internal angle contact bearings. I sourced some spares from Alibaba to test with the damping grease because they are only $5 ea, but take a month to arrive.

I bought a ZS44 Viscoset headset on bad advice here, so if anyone can use it DM me.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
I think the next thing I will try is to take a couple of spare bearings apart, throw away the ball spacers, and kitbash them into a bearing with a full compliment of balls, and put this on the crown race bearing to increase its load bearing capacity.

So a technical update if anyone is interested. The 41mm bearings I have are what I would call a semi-deep groove angle contact design. The seal grooves are offset, and one is larger than the other. The ball cage inside is open on one side and snaps in place. The bearing will not press apart--you have to remove the cage and gather the balls on one side to disassemble it. So it's not possible to get a full compliment of balls in it.

I also have a 52mm bearing that is true angle contact, with a closed cage, and it snaps open with just finger pressure. I though the 41mm would be similar, but it's not. If anyone has more details I'd be interested to know.
 

Bill Wightman

Well-Known Member
other issues up front i think before thru axles will work there.
The first thing that needs to happen at the front axle is to offset the wheel thru-axis attach point from the attach point for the chainstay. They should not be attached through the same axis line. The chainstay attach point at the bottom of the forks near the front wheel axle can be a nice, strong, balanced pin-and-clevis design (on each side of the bike) with a thru bolt adjacent to, but in front of and just above the wheel axis. This chainstay attach method might be used to trap the derailleur hanger so it does not fall off when changing the front wheel, although a small bolt is sufficient. When cycling, the loads will transfer essentially the same and the bolted chainstay arrangement can be torqued stiffer than a skewer currently allows. This gets the wheel shaft function separated from the structural function. When you take your front wheel off and put it back on nothing structural changes about the bike. This makes the bike easier to work with and stiffer up front and may eliminate the inevitable galling that occurs currently at this joint (unless you clean and grease joint periodically). In addition this road-bike standard axle and bolted derailleur hanger arrangement has commonality with the broad market of diamond frame offerings (now and in the future).
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
So a technical update if anyone is interested. The 41mm bearings I have are what I would call a semi-deep groove angle contact design. The seal grooves are offset, and one is larger than the other. The ball cage inside is open on one side and snaps in place. The bearing will not press apart--you have to remove the cage and gather the balls on one side to disassemble it. So it's not possible to get a full compliment of balls in it.

I also have a 52mm bearing that is true angle contact, with a closed cage, and it snaps open with just finger pressure. I though the 41mm would be similar, but it's not. If anyone has more details I'd be interested to know.

Still posting in the blind in case anyone is listening. I checked the top cap and found that I had tightened it to 12Nm, which I think is too tight for a stock bearing, I have installed a concave top cap so I can get a 4mm hex key under the boom to adjust it without disconnecting the boom clamp. So I can adjust on the fly now.

I also purchased an FSA Orbit IS headset with TH Industries bearings. These are true angle contact, so they split apart easily without damaging the seals. The long term plan is to rebuild these as semi-ceramic full compliment bearings with ceramic balls and the damping grease. I just need to get a micrometer to find out if the balls are 3.0mm or 0.125".
 

cpml123

Zen MBB Master
Still posting in the blind in case anyone is listening. I checked the top cap and found that I had tightened it to 12Nm, which I think is too tight for a stock bearing, I have installed a concave top cap so I can get a 4mm hex key under the boom to adjust it without disconnecting the boom clamp. So I can adjust on the fly now.

I also purchased an FSA Orbit IS headset with TH Industries bearings. These are true angle contact, so they split apart easily without damaging the seals. The long term plan is to rebuild these as semi-ceramic full compliment bearings with ceramic balls and the damping grease. I just need to get a micrometer to find out if the balls are 3.0mm or 0.125".
I didn't know there is such a thing as concave top cap. Great idea.
 
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