Are you a pusher or puller?

[JerseyJim]

I was riding today and this question popped into my head (as many things do when riding). I started thinking about my upper body technique and noticed that I'm mostly pushing, except when starting from a stop.

My upper body technique has developed organically over the years - I never got any coaching on what I should be doing. I do remember at some point deciding that pushing back against the seat and bracing my arms was probably more efficient than pulling with my arm and back muscles. I don't know if that's correct or not, but it feels right.

What do you do? Are you a pusher, puller, or a bit of both depending on the situation? What do you see are the advantages and disadvantages of each approach? Does this change depending on which model of Cruzbike you ride?

 

[Henri]

I don't have one yet, but I guess, pulling the handlebar would increase shiffness for pushing the pedal, especially if you have a thick and soft seat cushion and a less stiffly mounted aftermarket seat. Probably does not make much of a difference, though. I would probably use both arm and do both, unless I want to use ona arm for something else, especially in high efforts (starting, sprinting, climbing). - That should also train both arms for both actions and improve your one-armed capabilities.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I am always giving pretty hard efforts and pulling on the bars seems to help me do that more than trying to get the feel of pushing my butt into the seat. In the pedal stroke I feel I am mashing on the pedals with my quads and glutes. When my arms or hands need a break I'll stop pulling on the bars so much and try to incorporate my hamstrings more by pulling my heels as far along the bottom of each pedal stroke as possible. This kind of power delivery for me flows a lot more smoothly and the bike doesn't twitch as much under power as it usually does. My hamstrings are the weakest, or should I say "cramps the earliest" so I don't use that power delivery as much as I should. Actually, I couldn't tell you how long I use them in that kind of stroke either. It is probably somewhere around 10 minutes. I think what happens is that once my usual muscles recover enough I just transition back to my normal power delivery without even thinking about it.

 

[JerseyJim]

When my arms or hands need a break I'll stop pulling on the bars so much and try to incorporate my hamstrings more by pulling my heels as far along the bottom of each pedal stroke as possible.

Interesting. I wonder if pulling favors the lower seat angles? I guess pushing is less effective when you're reclined. Or is it? I don't know since I only have the T50 experience to compare.

I also "scoop" at the bottom of my pedal stroke to smooth out my power delivery. I don't "pull up" on the pedals because it bothers my knees and based on the research papers I've seen on cycling power delivery, pulling up adds little or no additional power overall.

I had similar hamstring weakness you talk about and quite severe muscle asymmetry due to years of fencing in college. I was able to remedy much of the weakness with kettlebell swings. I'm still working on the muscle asymmetry.

 

[Frito Bandito]

"Scooping" with the heels is probably a better term to use as I am not pulling up on the pedals. Doing so just uncleats my cleats. I am not sure how seat angle affects it, but I am sure it does though. Keep at it and it'll come around.

 

[Mathew Fy]

Are you a pusher, puller, or a bit of both

Yes!
When I’m going all out on my V20 I’m pulling on the handlebar and pushing my shoulders into the seat. A bit like doing hack squats. (Like image from the web.)

One reason I switched to the Thor seat was to make the press easier. When using the stock seat much of the pressure is born by the spine. For your more upright Silvio the stock seat’s probably just as good.

For the rest of my riding the hands are just resting and stabilizing the steering. I’m also trying to use the hamstrings more, both for balanced exercise and to ease the knee pain.

 

[benphyr]

I have a qx100, conversion kit and s40 which all have seat angles around 35-45 degrees. When I push against the seat I start to slide up it up eventually if I don’t pull so I bet some form of pulling is required for high power on v20 and Silvio.

I find pulling to counteract the same side leg push to be the most natural feeling to me but that is only my feeling. But I do use both techniques. I also will use the hamstring “pull” (described by @Frito Bandito) as a 30s break to the usual muscles.

All the arm stuff has to be recognized that the legs are way stronger.

 

[benphyr]

View attachment 12366
For the rest of my riding the hands are just resting and stabilizing the steering.

@Mathew Fy You are looking young, fit, and female? in that self portrait.

And that’s what I meant. About arms used for starting, extremely slow speed and extra effort such as sprinting but mainly just stabilizing.

 

[billyk]

To me, it's like a rowing machine motion: pushing with the feet while pulling with the hands. The counteracting pulls @benphyr mentions come naturally while doing this.

This is the classic CB "full body" action and advantage. It's a very strong motion and it's why we're faster.

Thus when I'm climbing or accelerating or keeping a high speed my hands tend to lift my upper back away from the seat.

This is the opposite of a traditional recumbent which is like a leg press machine: pushing your lower back into the seat back. Your upper body does nothing but steer and balance.

You can see and feel the difference by learning to ride no-hands, which is like a traditional recumbent.

 

[JerseyJim]

Yes!
When I’m going all out on my V20 I’m pulling on the handlebar and pushing my shoulders into the seat. A bit like doing hack squats. (Like image from the web.).

I understand how this works with the picture since there's pads on top of the shoulders and the arms are pulling in line with the pads, but I'm finding it hard to visualize how this works on the bike unless you have something hooking over your shoulders. If you pull, your torso stays in place because the legs are countering the force along with the core muscles. How do you "pull" into the seat?

For the rest of my riding the hands are just resting and stabilizing the steering.

Yeah me too. I feel the counter pressure of pedaling against my palms but I count that as pushing because my arms are in compression rather than tension when pulling.

 

[JerseyJim]

To me, it's like a rowing machine motion: pushing with the feet while pulling with the hands..

OK, this is interesting. I never thought of the pedaling dynamic like a rowing machine. That would engage the core more for bracing.

The way I looked at my pedaling was more like a leg press and bench press. With the leg press you push with your legs and press your back against the pad. With the bench press you push the barbell up and your back is supported by the bench. The force against the bench or pad equals the force of the weight (static).

My understanding is that we can push more weight than we can pull. If that's true, wouldn't pushing generate more force in the whole system than pulling? Maybe it's not true. I'm just thinking about all the weightlifting exercises I know and the ones that simulate the action of pulling handlebars aren't usually has heavily loaded as ones that push.

 

[JerseyJim]

My understanding is that we can push more weight than we can pull.

Yeah it's weird quoting myself but I went looking for some resolution on this question and I found this study which is really interesting in the context of this discussion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3625793/

That's the link to the whole study. I skimmed it, didn't read it all but the conclusion of the study:
The results suggest that for our group of healthy recreationally active subjects, the upper body “pushing” musculature is approximately 1.5–2.7 times stronger than the musculature involved for pulling.

There is another site that refers to a meta-analysis (a compilation of studies on the topic) that they say conclude the following (but they don't link to the actual meta-analysis):
"For a majority of the processes, pushing is preferred. A meta-analysis of the research on pushing/pulling shows that, as humans, we are capable of safely generating more force when pushing, rather than pulling. This is due to the postures experienced while pushing and muscle recruitment. This is situation-dependent, though."

 

[woodguy]

I ride a Q45, and find that when climbing a hill I’m definitely pulling, but if I’m on the flat and trying to maximize speed I’m pushing.

 

[benphyr]

I think the pulling in high power situations is short-term additional stabilization and anchoring to the core so that the legs can increase the amount of power for a short time. The pushing is an alternative that is possibly harder to develop and to me feels less comfortable - pulling equals lifting / holding groceries with the right side only and keeping the bag level while walking engages right leg, right arm, and core whereas pushing high power engages right leg push at the same time as left arm push and core stabilizing both sides which feels almost like twisting and feels, for me, more like trying to hop like a frog using only opposite appendages - I could learn to do it and it would be good for me but is definitely more challenging. If I had more core strength it may not be an issue.

Also, push-push exacerbates the sliding up the seat back phenomenon.

I also will use the hamstring “pull” (described by @Frito Bandito)

What I am doing with this move is pulling back/up against the seat pan. It probably doesn’t work as well on a v20 by itself but quite likely is accompanied by pushing with the opposite foot helping with stabilizing.

 

[DavidCH]

Yes!
When I’m going all out on my V20 I’m pulling on the handlebar and pushing my shoulders into the seat. A bit like doing hack squats. (Like image from the web.)
View attachment 12366
One reason I switched to the Thor seat was to make the press easier. When using the stock seat much of the pressure is born by the spine. For your more upright Silvio the stock seat’s probably just as good.

For the rest of my riding the hands are just resting and stabilizing the steering. I’m also trying to use the hamstrings more, both for balanced exercise and to ease the knee pain.

I think you like this for the wrong reasons LOL.

I have often thought about a Thor seat but I think it's all about spinning. I prefer at the moment to push more on the pedals and pull on the bars. The other day I was confronted with a slight hill that had like a hurricane headwind... it was hellish bad ; so bad that I had a light weight DF rider sprint for all his worth so that he could shelter behind me. I got to the junction and said that I will go with the wind and headed back another way. The Thor seat is better for hills and can allow you to be 30degrees if you want.

 

[LarryOz]

I am probably more a puller when I ride with both hands and am really applying the power - but I usually ride with just one had on the handlebar, so you can understand why I don't pull too much!
This is really good practice to make your legs take over on the majority of the steering and to reduce any pedal steer issues

 

[Mathew Fy]

Y’all might find this earlier discussion edu-taining
https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/climbing-and-sprinting-technical-talk.8620/

 

[JerseyJim]

Y’all might find this earlier discussion edu-taining
https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/climbing-and-sprinting-technical-talk.8620/

That's a great thread! Thank you!

BTW, I started this thread just asking what people do and why, out of curiosity. Not looking for "right" or "best" as sometimes can happen with subjects like this. I think "best" is whatever works for you.

 

[chicorider]

I mostly ride my V20. I tend to pull when I need to on the hills and sprints, but most of the time, my arms are doing just light work to keep the steering stable.

 

[jond]

Both and at the same time.

I have two arms two legs one brain. Why limit the brains pleasure to a push or a pull when both are simultaneously on offer . Technique.

I also think it’s related to boom angle , bb height and individual set up. I don’t pull push near as much on the sofrider compared to the near horizontal boom of the vendetta.

if your body is more reclined with legs up above your waist then bridging efforts getting your bum light or even entirely off the seat are easier. Bit hard leveraging off a handlebar that has a vertical rise from the steerer pivot. Eg sofrider. No such issue on the vendetta.

at the end of the day I reckon a short lived 25 watts are on offer. Most of the time it’s legs.