Diet: Low Carb and Ultra Cycling

[hoyden]

Bob, Joe, thank you for your extended explanations. Now I am more confused but that's probably a good thing so that I don't come to wrong conclusions trying to understand my personal physiology.

The "thing" I experience when my body goes sideways during a hard ride is a sudden onset of light-headed, loss of muscle stamina, and heart rate jumps to 200-225. I pull over, sit down, and wait. Over a period of about 45 minutes my heart rate will gradually subside to 180-190, and then, in an instant, drop to 80 or less. While waiting for things to get shiny side up again I have eaten energy bars and drank water. It's hard to say which helps except to say neither has an instantaneous effect.

Sometimes I can feel the onset of the "thing"; a momentary lighted headed feeling and jump in heart rate. If I reduce effort the feeling will sometimes pass and I can resume regular riding, and sometimes I need to stop and the body returns to normal in less than 10 minutes.

My overall riding goal is to push myself as much as my legs and heart rate can sustain without going over the edge. I have yet to completely map out my edge.

 

[ratz]

Bob, Joe, thank you for your extended explanations. Now I am more confused but that's probably a good thing so that I don't come to wrong conclusions trying to understand my personal physiology.

The "thing" I experience when my body goes sideways during a hard ride is a sudden onset of light-headed, loss of muscle stamina, and heart rate jumps to 200-225. I pull over, sit down, and wait. Over a period of about 45 minutes my heart rate will gradually subside to 180-190, and then, in an instant, drop to 80 or less. While waiting for things to get shiny side up again I have eaten energy bars and drank water. It's hard to say which helps except to say neither has an instantaneous effect.

Sometimes I can feel the onset of the "thing"; a momentary lighted headed feeling and jump in heart rate. If I reduce effort the feeling will sometimes pass and I can resume regular riding, and sometimes I need to stop and the body returns to normal in less than 10 minutes.

My overall riding goal is to push myself as much as my legs and heart rate can sustain without going over the edge. I have yet to completely map out my edge.

Ok that's concerning; and it's unfortunately not so uncommon in athletes over 40-45 that engage in long efforts. If it happens once or twice and you actually feel fine during it; then it's probably a loose heart rate monitor strap. If it happens with the side affects you describe then it's something to see a doctor about preferably a sports oriented but general practitioner will be very affordable. You need to rule out trial fibrillation

http://www.johnpostmd.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

That topic is way over our heads here but not one to fool around with. The doctors can help figure out what's going on; it could be something bad or it could be as simple as un-diagnosed asthma

 

[castlerobber]

Over a period of about 45 minutes my heart rate will gradually subside to 180-190, and then, in an instant, drop to 80 or less.

My dad has atrial fibrillation, and your description sounds familiar. I'm not a doctor--I don't even play one on TV--but it does sound like you need to have that checked out.

 

[hoyden]

The doctors can help figure out what's going on;

A couple years ago I had a heart ultrasound done to investigate the issue after my GP found a tiny blip in my EKG. He said the blip was most common seen with bike riders. The ultrasound didn't find any issues and so I don't have a clean resolution.

My takeaway is that I am probably not a good candidate for the ultra-cycling, high energy riding segment. Now I also know that it's not the bonk or hitting the wall you and others have described. It's not an issue until I push my body extra hard but I can still enjoy a vigorous ride.

 

[LarryOz]

Hoyden, I had some similar episodes last year, where my heart would rocket up to 230-240'sh range - although I did not have any of the other symptoms you described.
I could not even feel it, and had I not had my HR monitor on, I would not even know it had happened.
First I thought it was just a wacky HR monitor, until multiple devices recorded the same data.
It usually happened after multiple hours riding above 160bpm.
I would just keep on riding, and it usually would just go back to "normal". ie. 160 - 170 - 180 - whatever I was at when it went high.
I ended up going to a slew of doctors and heart specialists. They finally told me that I had 1 of 3 possibilities (and I can't remember what they all where), but I think they all had this in common:
After I got fatigued, a section of my heart would start sending wacky signals. Sound like AF.
They said they would have to do evasive tests to find what area was doing this, then they could try an "ablation" to that area.
Both the tests to find out the area and the ablation seemed to carry certain risks that could harm my heart. Seemed like a bad bet to do anything.
The last heart surgeon I went to said if it where him, he would do nothing.
He said that I was healthy enough to let my heart beat that high without any adverse affects.
So, now I just try and listen to my body.

To me, I think it also might have had something to do with being dehydrated and maybe lacking (or having used up) certain "electrolytic" elements that are needed for proper muscle function.
After all, the heart is a muscle and for us ultra cyclists it is probably the muscle that works hardest of all.
When undertaking extreme feats of endurance, we should all keep a keen eye on hydration and electrolytic balance.
We can survive a "leg cramp", but most do not survive a "heart cramp"!

 

[hoyden]

The last heart surgeon I went to said if it where him, he would do nothing.

That's pretty much where I have landed.

I've pedaled through the leg and foot cramps but the heart deal is a "she who will not be ignored" experience.

I like your suggestion to stay hydrated and eclectically balanced. Do you have a favorite electrolytic formula?

Thank you for sharing. Your description of experience and the other information in this thread has helped me to situate myself in the grand scheme of things.

 

[LarryOz]

Do you have a favorite electrolytic formula?

For now, I just have a bottle of Hammer endurolytes pills. I am still experimenting with how much to take.

Here is a post from Hammer: http://www.hammernutrition.com/know...so-important-and-how-to-do-it-right.1274.html

Here also in another post about quantity from "elete": http://elete.com/can-you-ingest-too-many-electrolytes/

I think the bottom line is you have to be really in tune with your body - and also account for the weather, how hard you are exerting yourself, etc., etc.
This is not an easy thing to fine tune - every day - every ride - every race is different and you have to make an educated guess as to what it best.
Good Luck

 

[hoyden]

I think the bottom line is you have to be really in tune with your body - and also account for the weather, how hard you are exerting yourself, etc., etc.
This is not an easy thing to fine tune - every day - every ride - every race is different and you have to make an educated guess as to what it best.
Good Luck

I bought endurolyte pills 10 years ago trying to solve the muscle cramp while riding experience. I have the bottle stashed somewhere and will endeavor to ferret it out.

Again, thanks for sharing. I see the wisdom in all of the above except for the luck. I would like to remove luck from the equation.

 

[ratz]

Not to make anyone hungry this morning; but Pluckyblond has been working hard to satisfy her chocolate quotient. You have been warned. Note if recipe calls for sugar; we use "swerve"

https://www.pinterest.com/pluckyblond/ketolow-carb-recipes/

 

[hoyden]

When the chocolate imperative demands out of the box instant gratification I use the 90% cocoa from Lindt.

 

[pedlpadl]

My story.

I'm by no means an ultra endurance cyclist or racer. I'm an avid recreational type. My longest rides are centuries on flat land. My typical weekend training/fun rides are 30-50 miles with rolling hills. When I first started road cycling, I could hang with my group until the first or second hill. Once I did a couple of hills, my legs were shot and it was painful the rest of the ride, and a struggle to stay with the group.

Meanwhile, every year I had a physical and my blood work showed high glucose, triglycerides, and cholesterol. I was 16-20 pounds overweight. My doctor used the term "pre-diabetic" to describe my condition most of the time and advised me to reduce my intake of simple carbs. I mostly ignored that advice and kept eating energy bars and sports drinks on my rides. Typical breakfast was oatmeal, lunch was a sandwich, potato chips and a cookie. I usually had a blood sugar lull in the afternoon and ate more carbs to fix it. No matter how hard I worked out or restricted calories, I couldn't lose the weight.

Then one day my doctor used the term "insulin resistant". A light came on. I'd been reading about energy and glucose in athletes. I realized that my cells were resistant to insulin and couldn't take in glucose efficiently and that was my problem. I cut out sugar, most simple carbs (I still eat too much bread and drink too much beer) and within a week, my endurance changed dramatically. I could climb a hill or two and still had gas in the tank. I could hang with the group for the whole ride. I lost 16 pounds in six weeks. Before, after a 50 mile ride, it took 3 days to recover. Now my legs feel good the next day.

I used to fill two bottles with Hammer Perpetuem at full strength for a 50 mile ride, and eat an energy bar as well. Now I fill one bottle with plain water, and one with Perpetuem at half strength. I may or may not have some crackers.

That was two years ago. Some of the weight has come back (I still eat too much bread and drink too much beer). Reading this thread has me thinking I need to rededicate myself and watch my carbs better.

 

[LMT]

I think some balance needs to sought and myths need to be dispelled before we go down the whole 'sugar is bad, don't eat sugar, it gives you type II diabetes' (my paraphrase)

Firstly the primary fuel for the human body is Glucose, 15-20 million years of human evolution and this is where we are at. And to talk semantics there is no such thing as 'sugar' per se. Sugar is a collective term for a group of mono and disaccharides, the main ones being fructose, glucose, galactose, sucrose, lactose, and maltose.

Would I advocate a diet consisting of a high intake in sucrose? No I would not, this is empty calories, rots your teeth and makes you fat. Would I advocate a diet high in lactose? No I would not as this comes from milk. The same with HFCS, being added sugar which again will make you fat. However fructose in it's plant based form is 100% good for you, as with the fructose you'll get a healthy dose of fibre which regulates the release of sugar in the blood.

And now we come to the subject of blood sugar level, it is a myth that only eating foods high in blood sugar causes diabetes. Studies have shown that in a set number of type II diabetes cases only 23% of these were shown to be from eating a diet which consists of foods which raise blood sugar level. What people should really be looking at is what causes an increase in insulinogenic load....

 

[ratz]

Et al.

If you have read this thread the way Lee has paraphrased "sugar is bad" then indeed stop here; and go read the papers Jim linked and go read Primal Endurance. Come back in a week it's a lot to read. But without understanding that info it is very dangerous to try and grok any of this discussion, and not wise for your health.

At no point do these works advocate the complete elimination of Glucose sources from the diet. The case made is to remove what a percentage of experts in various fields classify as bad carbs and replace them with good carbs in good healthy quantities from good sources. So far this thread is about two topics that dance around that idea:

(1) Training with carb restriction to loose weight and fix / shock a messed up metabolism back into line; that's a temporary period and at some point you do have to level off your carbs in the 150-200g per day range; 50g a day would be unsustainable. While 150-200g might seem slim; it's the formula for this diet. This is not a debate about whether it's a good diet or not; we are discussing using it as it stands in the cycling realm and the results we get.

(2) The second item that's going to pop up is the quest to replace enjoyment foods with alternatives that are good tasting. There's is a risk that people will think that's the only thing that should be eaten, come'on now those are the treats, it's not the intent to sit down and eat 20 fat bomb, peanut-butter cups because they are sugar free. etc etc. all things in moderation. I fully expect people to have fun with that. No Larry you can't just eat bacon; yes I know, but you can't.

At some point we'll be progressing towards talking about efficient ways to get higher carb levels in for events, I don't think we have gotten that far yet; as most of us doing it are still progressing there, Maria is probably the farthest along in the subject and she's promised a blog post in the future that I'm sure will be well considered and balanced.

Now to that video, Lee, 23% with statistical error factored in is a full-on one-quater of the cases; so let's not refer to a measured and quantitive cause as a myth, we get the gist, "be careful with the diabetes hype, it's a slippery slope." If you want to chase that idea branch, we can start a new thread dedicated to it; it has merit both in this discussion and outside of it.

So as a point of completeness and to add info I haven't had time to get to yet (and I'm still adapting to)..... I'm on the lifestyle and major staples of my diet are: Apples, Strawberries, blue berries, Green Beans, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Sweet Peppers, Romain Lettuce, Mushrooms, Zucchini, Dark chocolate and a large variety of nut based items.... I've never been a vegetable person and I can't grind them into a super condensed smoothie, doesn't work for me. But.... I'm expanding that list daily in the quest to good carbs and good flavors. Since I don't get a lot of carbs in my diet then dam it they will taste good and I will seek them out. Anyhow there's a ton of wonderfully flavored carbs in there and sources of natural sugars. I've said before we us Swerve is recipes to avoid processed sugars and leave room in the diet for the natural ones. What you won't find are Grains, Potato/Starches, Corn, Soy, or Refined Sugars products foods that I love the taste of but don't help me. They don't work with the plan, I read the works, I'm following the plan, and I'm re-reading them for the 3rd time looking for errors in my comprehension, I wouldn't try to invent the plans too easy to screw it up. Also let's not try and teach these plans here; read the works to learn, teaching; we here, are not qualified. Instead share tips, hints, what works, what failed, riding success riding failure.... debate in another place; it's Election season in the U.S. that's enough debate for anyone.

Hopefully that keeps on target.

 

[LMT]

Thanks for the clarification Ratz, for those who don't want to read the book...

 

[telephd]

Thank you Lee! I was stoked on the science

 

[DavidCH]

Bring on the cheesecake. Because it's really good.
https://www.grassfedgirl.com/primal-low-carb-cheesecake/

And the peanut butter cups
http://lowcarbyum.com/chocolate-peanut-butter-fat-bomb-recipe/

*** Side note: Use "Swerve" for the sugar replacement.
It doesn't create an insulin reaction according to the research on "Erythritol"

Peanut butter cups I can grasp at 50g a day. I have put myself on this diet too as I read the book Jim recommended and Atkins worked for me in the past. My doctor told me it wasn't so much of a good idea so that's why I gave up Atkins but now seeing the reversal of nutritionists judgement on cheese I am back on it. Just love the sugar free ice cream but what it's really difficult to keep the diet under 50grams as well as keeping protein between 90 to 150 grass depending on the size of you.

Next week should be a tough one. Second week in. So ... Fingers crossed.

 

[ratz]

From 2014... an actual study

The Effects of a Ketogenic Diet on Exercise Metabolism and Physical Performance in Off-Road Cyclists

Still reading through it but it's nicely crossl-inked to 42 other studies and papers so it's a good place to follow idea thread outward from.
More readable than most.

Interesting that it probably notes the cause of my hydration miss calculation to weeks ago. "Other side effects of ketogenic diets for sport performance include dehydration,"
My current weight loss goals definitely pushes me from the low carb zone to the ketosis zone; and my water needs have definitely gone up; and I'm historically a camel

 

[LMT]

The conclusion is pretty much what is expected. I can see the benefits of a high fat adapted diet during an endurance race. However for me during training it's a no no.

Taking diet and nutrition out of the equation essentially what you are talking about with an endurance effort, is exactly that - an endurance effort. A steady effort where the power won't really get out of zone 2, maybe into tempo but certainly not near FTP or sweetspot.

IME the best way to raise your FTP is to train hard at around sweetspot, Z4, and Z5, and for this you need plant based carbs. Raising your FTP means raising the zones that are a result of this. What was zone 2 and 165 watts for me back in September is now 220 watts. And the training I have done for this I would not have been able to do with a low carb diet, as the study points out and every other study that I've looked at regarding low carb.

IMO you'd be better doing intervals during the week on a carb based diet, have a rest day on Friday and over the course of 12-20 weeks introduce less carbs and more fat (plant based, no butter!) as you gradually increase the load week on week. On the Saturday I' be looking to do a Z2 effort with odd tempo effort thrown in to see how my body reacts. And a shorter aerobic coupling effort on the Sunday to see where my aerobic fitness is at. Then rest on Monday and repeat.

 

[ratz]

Lee, Not too far off the mark from what I'm doing with the primal endurance; although I'm starting a step earlier. I'm combining Trainer Road Structured Plans with the primal endurance stuff to get a minor hybrid, but it's still adhering to the correct carbs at the correct levels in conjunction with the type of training that is going on; so that endurance efforts can be done without a reliance on them. Here's the details so far to bore everyone.

Phase 1 has been 12 weeks of base building. This is all long and slow stuff. 10-15 hours per week 350TSS working up to 700TSS. Most of that is done in Z2, at a Carb restricted level. Goals are to lose weight and train body to run well with the carbs and sugar. Maintain FTP or slight gains in FTP. I'm getting about 10 watts per 3-4 weeks but I'm also losing about 10 lbs per 4 weeks. Given the current wisdom on loosing weight and gaining FTP I'm cool with that. Monitor everything probably too much in WKo4 and comparing to prior years data on the high carb plan. Right now 50-100g Carbs per day mostly from berries; and green leaf vegetables and occasion sweet potatoes before long efforts. Proteins from very lean meats and fish in my case, (you could exclude meats for alternative diets), and most of the fat content is coming from nuts (mostly almonds and coconut) and high quality cooking oils. Dairy and Eggs are still involved but yes you could sub those out too. Weather permitting I put 1 hard outdoor effort in on the weekends. This takes the place of two indoor seasons; requires 2 days of recovery and allows me a break form the long and slow stuff allowing me to pick something where I don't have to over monitor what I'm doing (foremost this is a concession to myself so that I will continue to train on what should have been a fall-winter plan, right in the teeth of riding season). This hard effort also comes back from the P.E. stuff that says go hard only infrequently; and once a week wether permitting this approach is what I settled on. Wear and tear on the body has been minimal, but I've always been a long slow distance guy going back to high school where I swam the mile and liked it; I don't really get bored on the trainer until about 4+ hours. Right now I'm just finishing 2nd, 4week block, with a minor break for a business trip. At the start of the final block, I will be adding a DXA Scan in every 4 weeks (about $50 -or- 1/2 a ratz) to monitor where weight loose is coming from; up to now it's been pretty obvious as I move from 38in jeans to 32in jeans, but I want more control data. I've got a hideous before picture; I need an after picture Summary: This part is all about long and slow, and so far it's doing what it was suppose to do. I have gotten much leaner and my aerobic base is coming back to what it was before I messed it up last year; now just have to stick out the last 4 weeks and not try to leap ahead from impatience.

Phase 2, Power building will be about 8 weeks; of 3 days sweet spot work and 3 days distance work. 1 Day slow, 1 Day fast pattern. Plan directly from T.R. During that phase Carbs will come up to 125-175g on intense work out day and will see that increase from berries and sweet potatoes varieties. Those carbs peaks will be timed before the workouts. Since my hard stuff is usually around 9pm at night most of that will be lunch-time with dinner being far more moderate. Calories planned with the efforts. We'll see if my power goes up during that 8 weeks; I'll be happy to share the info success or failure after all that's the whole point. The goal will be to get enough carbs into the system for the workout; and then burn them off during the workout so their isn't much residual, so that the follow on long slow day can switch back to fat relatively quickly. That's going to be interesting; errors will mean fun recoveries with the foam roller. Which meal is the correct meal will be one of those refinement point. This phase will be an important one to the test. My historic FTP tops out at 225, 195 right now. But my burst wattage has always been uniquely high around 950-1050; on a recumbent fading after about 5-10s very rapidly. (I'm very fast over short distances) Currently it's about 925... I want to see if I can pull that super high power out to be 30s or even 45s while I focus and elevate the cruising speed power to the high-end of the 200s. We'll see how it goes that training will fall in the teeth of all 5 kids being home from school and just the schedule alone might kill me. If I wasn't trying to add 100watts I might go with a less intense and stress full approach but it is what it is.

After the power build we'll go into Phase 3 for 8 weeks of v02max refinement and that will also be an alternating days schedule. 1 day hard and 1 day long and slow repeat. Nutrient timing is going to be interesting for that phase. It will be based on how the power building goes; I have more reading to do on V02Max and low carb but there is time; and I don't yet know if I will get that far.

If that works then I'll be line up for an nice winter base training phase; and I should actually be ready to show up at Sebring next year so I can get larry off my back

One advantage this year, is that I have no time for any events and nothing on the calendar that I have to show up and do well for; so I can afford to play with all of this; if I do nothing else but get back to a reasonable weight and a reasonable FTP then it will be a success everything beyond that is educational and informative. I'll screw myself up so you don't have too. If all goes well I'll do an informed 400 miler across MN against the clock and myself as a measure; there there will be several 150+ miles summer rides because I enjoy them.

Other things that make this weird and unique for that those scratching their heads. (1) I work from home, (2) two pre-schooler stuck home with me all day (3) work can vary from a 5 hours a day to a 18 hour day and always totals out to be about 60-70 hours per week. Work trumps all other items I have no choice in that regard. (4) Stress is high as the business owner and I have to balance that stress with my training stress. (5) I hold to a training schedule of workouts in an order, but not to the day of the week they have to occur on so a week block might be 8-9 days on my schedule; when in doubt I'll take a rest day to respect the fact that I have always been a slower to recover person. (recovery wimp) (6) I'll monitor the data with the analysis tool wko4 which I studied all winter. I'm using that tool to make sure it the resulting loads are consistent with my understanding of the science; and so far it has been a great touch stone so I can tweak efforts up or down based on my absurd schedule. ((next fall I may take the coaching classes just learn it from that angle)).

Lastly inspite of all of this; the primary reason I pedal is for the pleasure and relaxation I get from it; and that will remain the goal; I'll chuck all of this stuff the minute that it stops being that.

 

[jond]

this discussion is fascinating. the discipline and dedication to cause and results on show here is beyond me. the way you skin a cat is your own and there are many ways. respect to all and praise to all. i mean no offence to any cat in that unscientific opinion . i look forward to the meaningful scientific results of my pioneering dedicated fellow riding cruzbikers. and thank them for their sharing and fantastic effort.

i love food and it loves me in moderation in all things. like my mum taught me in sensible groups and quantity. thanks mum you are the best.

my body is a machine and if i abuse it it tells me so. i am responsible. ( i have never woken up inside the fridge)

i love beer bacon and chocolate ..... struggle to control the chocolate's wicked ways.

some of those recipe dishes sound yummo ratz.

food has become more to me as i have aged for some reason..........................

i can smell that bacon sizzling now as i salivate like a rabid dog.

okay i eat too much. there i admit it.