jond
Zen MBB Master
that is the absolute key ratz and a five rubber mallet award to you for saying so. enjoying cycling. how lucky are we. fun first second and third. cycling should never ever be a chore.
Diet: Low Carb and Ultra Cycling
- Thread starter ratz
- Start date
that is the absolute key ratz and a five rubber mallet award to you for saying so. enjoying cycling. how lucky are we. fun first second and third. cycling should never ever be a chore.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Something is a foot with Almonds. I walked into our local "fleet farm" the country version of home-depot blended with Walmart; and the there must have been a couple hundred different bins with various forms of Almonds derived this and that.
ReklinedRider
Zen MBB Master
In the Atkins plan aren't fried pork rinds a desirable low carb treat?
jond
Zen MBB Master
hi ratz re: skinning my cat and the quality of a good stool.
one thing a well oiled machine likes is regular regular maintenance.
we are meant to sleep when it is dark and not get up and turn the fridge light on. my mate puts a lock on the fridge door to stop his habitual comfort grazing . it worked. he has a stressful job.
shift workers tend to be more likely to be unhealthy than non shift workers because of their irregularity.
ratz i think eating at very regular intervals is absolutely necessary too and most beneficial. i think it is almost as important as your food choice. i see you lead the life nocturnal as conditions dictate which is....very very tough
ratz how does this affect your digestion process and eating patterns even with your new diet regime??????
i know i am on full song when i can set my clock to my pooping. twice a day. eat later i get an upset stomach overnight. reset the clock.
also of great note is your personal mental health. if your mind is in tumult then performance on the bike will never ever be possible. emotional intelligence cant be beat.
regularity and harmony with a balanced diet and 10 hours exercise = ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh good fast cruzbike and consistent stool quality guaranteed to float down the murray.
looking at this thread again confirms my experience in riding distance.
to do so you must preserve your glycogen stores by riding within yourself at your own level. everyone fit enough has 3 hours glycogen stores in them and no more. once it is gone you are in limp home mode. there is no coming back till you have slept/rested. lack of salt yes. lack of sugar yes mild dehydration possible. hunger flat yes. 10th flat tyre no.
that any gels or things ending in "ose" give you a brief lift only and as sole use are only good for a save. dilute your gels in your bidon if you must use gels.
eat real food. everyday food that your system is used to. allow your stomach to work ride within yourself and accept the speed on the day. a fine line but it is better to be 20 minutes slower and feel good than be laying on the side of the road for hours. the ultra pros are the cutting edge and on the fine line. how close do you want to come to failure?????
take a sandwich in your pack for lunch. practice before your event. you are what you eat so when reduced to Macdonalds have a Mchappy meal or as i prefer a fillet of fish. what you can cycle in a week you can do in a day.
that you know your body through actual cycling experience. riding within yourself is a movable feast due to on-day conditions . terrain and heat are major factors.
looking at Larry's post. i understand the thought of" i did the exercise i can eat what i want."
but not if incoming is all reward chocolates . out of balance is out of balance you naughty speedy boy you.
lately i have been cycling much less last two weeks or so. i cut my intake of food to match what i thought i needed which was tough .
the bathroom scale and power meter tells me all i need to know. since 50 my FTP has been constant and the same on every cycle platform. incredibly mediocre but am happy. i know that it will decline but not before .....eighty eight i hope.
what does all this mean. it means that i can ride at 65% FTP for 18 hours per day day in day out. it actually gets a little easier by day 3. all the while consuming the equal of a hot meal every 3 hours once the system is booted.
it means that if i gorge on sweet stuff i feel crap the next day. it means for me keep it simple then if something goes wrong i have a fighting chance of working out what went wrong.
it means that i have a watts/kg of around who cares. which is decidedly most ho hum average for a bloke my age and fitness.
but on a Vendetta it makes me pretty much the fastest cat in this ten bike store town. heh heh.
finally i know riders whom have completed the toughest audax rides 1200klm including this years paris brest paris
with no other training other than their occasional audax rides. have a look at sarah chaplin on strava for example.
in deed they are seemingly quite overweight. proof then that any natural body type can achieve great things outside their natural disposition.
there is no substitute for riding a smart adaptable plan.
one thing a well oiled machine likes is regular regular maintenance.
we are meant to sleep when it is dark and not get up and turn the fridge light on. my mate puts a lock on the fridge door to stop his habitual comfort grazing . it worked. he has a stressful job.
shift workers tend to be more likely to be unhealthy than non shift workers because of their irregularity.
ratz i think eating at very regular intervals is absolutely necessary too and most beneficial. i think it is almost as important as your food choice. i see you lead the life nocturnal as conditions dictate which is....very very tough
ratz how does this affect your digestion process and eating patterns even with your new diet regime??????
i know i am on full song when i can set my clock to my pooping. twice a day. eat later i get an upset stomach overnight. reset the clock.
also of great note is your personal mental health. if your mind is in tumult then performance on the bike will never ever be possible. emotional intelligence cant be beat.
regularity and harmony with a balanced diet and 10 hours exercise = ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh good fast cruzbike and consistent stool quality guaranteed to float down the murray.
looking at this thread again confirms my experience in riding distance.
to do so you must preserve your glycogen stores by riding within yourself at your own level. everyone fit enough has 3 hours glycogen stores in them and no more. once it is gone you are in limp home mode. there is no coming back till you have slept/rested. lack of salt yes. lack of sugar yes mild dehydration possible. hunger flat yes. 10th flat tyre no.
that any gels or things ending in "ose" give you a brief lift only and as sole use are only good for a save. dilute your gels in your bidon if you must use gels.
eat real food. everyday food that your system is used to. allow your stomach to work ride within yourself and accept the speed on the day. a fine line but it is better to be 20 minutes slower and feel good than be laying on the side of the road for hours. the ultra pros are the cutting edge and on the fine line. how close do you want to come to failure?????
take a sandwich in your pack for lunch. practice before your event. you are what you eat so when reduced to Macdonalds have a Mchappy meal or as i prefer a fillet of fish. what you can cycle in a week you can do in a day.
that you know your body through actual cycling experience. riding within yourself is a movable feast due to on-day conditions . terrain and heat are major factors.
looking at Larry's post. i understand the thought of" i did the exercise i can eat what i want."
but not if incoming is all reward chocolates . out of balance is out of balance you naughty speedy boy you.
lately i have been cycling much less last two weeks or so. i cut my intake of food to match what i thought i needed which was tough .
the bathroom scale and power meter tells me all i need to know. since 50 my FTP has been constant and the same on every cycle platform. incredibly mediocre but am happy. i know that it will decline but not before .....eighty eight i hope.
what does all this mean. it means that i can ride at 65% FTP for 18 hours per day day in day out. it actually gets a little easier by day 3. all the while consuming the equal of a hot meal every 3 hours once the system is booted.
it means that if i gorge on sweet stuff i feel crap the next day. it means for me keep it simple then if something goes wrong i have a fighting chance of working out what went wrong.
it means that i have a watts/kg of around who cares. which is decidedly most ho hum average for a bloke my age and fitness.
but on a Vendetta it makes me pretty much the fastest cat in this ten bike store town. heh heh.
finally i know riders whom have completed the toughest audax rides 1200klm including this years paris brest paris
with no other training other than their occasional audax rides. have a look at sarah chaplin on strava for example.
in deed they are seemingly quite overweight. proof then that any natural body type can achieve great things outside their natural disposition.
there is no substitute for riding a smart adaptable plan.
DavidCH
In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
Haaaa he is following you all the time.... You are giving your game plan away by blogging it.larry off my back
(We are all in the muchness of life... As you said before... You are only competing against your self)
I like many others are awaiting Maria's blog on nutrition. I saw her at Sebring and she didn't even pitstop and then at Bessie's Creek she broke all records. Now she must have some secret potion's of wellbeing.
super slim
Zen MBB Master
Jond, thanks for sending your loose crap down the Murray River to me in South Australia!!!
Its not often that I agree with you!!! But this time is an exception!!!
NO Gels as they are too strong and my delicate small stomach can not handle them.
If there is a long (20 Km+) hill coming up, I stop/slow 15 minutes before to have a Jam/Peanut butter wholemeal sandwich!
3 hrs between sandwiches+ an off the bike stretch!
I am a cruiser NOT a racer!
Its not often that I agree with you!!! But this time is an exception!!!
NO Gels as they are too strong and my delicate small stomach can not handle them.
If there is a long (20 Km+) hill coming up, I stop/slow 15 minutes before to have a Jam/Peanut butter wholemeal sandwich!
3 hrs between sandwiches+ an off the bike stretch!
I am a cruiser NOT a racer!
trplay
Zen MBB Master
This low carb diet has me a bit confused. Maria now Larry run around the racetrack like a firecracker on steroids IE: dyna-mite! The claim is low carbs allows them to eat little to nothing at all because their systems are using their fat cells to get the glycogen to the muscle. This is where my simple mind loses the concept and any help will be appreciated. My understanding is your system is either in a (sp) ketonic state or not. This is acquired by consuming a very small amount of carbs over a period of 2-4 weeks, 50g/ day seems to be the target. This is really hard to achieve because if you cheat at all your system requires a restart towards the ketonic state. Not only this but a low carb diet such as this is almost dad gum impossible to achieve for the average person and frankly impossible for me. So the question is -- is this intended to be part of a training plan 6-8 weeks out from a major event, then returning back to a bit higher carb intake after the event? Once I have this sorted out more questions--many more questions to follow.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
My 2 cents Hardy:
For me the first 6-8 weeks I went "ultra" low carbs (50 grams) because I wanted to loose some weight also, which did happen. About 25 pounds in 6-7 weeks.
But the diet I am following does allow about 15o grams of carbs for a more maintenance level (which is what I am doing now) that they say will not put your body back into a "sugar reliance" state.
I'm not sure if you can stay in a "true" ketonic state at 150 grams, but I still think that once you have adapted (basically cut your bodies dependency and reliance on carbs) and learned how to ride below your aerobic level that you can still ride fuel-less at some level. Each person probably has to learn what that is for themselves.
To continue:
My understanding is that this low-carb diet in combination with training "below" your aerobic level (i.e. breathing through your nose, and talk easily, etc) will have the desired effect of more or less training your body to process your fat better for your base level energy. I think a big part of it is getting you body off processed sugars and carbs.
Once you start really depleting your glycogen quickly in your muscles (by having a heart rate significantly higher than your aerobic level), then eventually you will use it up just like before.
This diet with training can't really change that fact. Maybe with a higher fitness level and training you can raise the ceiling of your upper aerobic limit where you don't deplete your glycogen reserves as fast.
This is were I think many athletes that use this diet and training strategy still consume "some" level of simple carbs during their races to in effect "dump" glucose" right into their bloodstream.
I think this thinking is that your body can break down and "infuse" these simple carbs into your blood (for your power) and therefore hold off the use of much of the glycogen within your muscles.
..
I can't say as I totally understand all this - and I could be "totally" off base here on many fronts as well, but what I have been doing seems to work well on some level.
I am still experimenting with heart rate levels and consumption of carbs during riding. I am sure it is a balancing act on many levels.
For me, I still want to go just as fast as I can for as long as I can - and if I have to consume carbs while riding I will do it. For instance, if I want to ride at 22mph then I can do it without fueling, but if I want to ride at 25+mph (at a sustained level for hours) then I am going to have to ingest some carbs or I will eventually bonk.
Maria, Jim , Ratz - please jump in and correct me if I have gone down a wrong path here, if you have come to understand this stuff it in a different way.
For me the first 6-8 weeks I went "ultra" low carbs (50 grams) because I wanted to loose some weight also, which did happen. About 25 pounds in 6-7 weeks.
But the diet I am following does allow about 15o grams of carbs for a more maintenance level (which is what I am doing now) that they say will not put your body back into a "sugar reliance" state.
I'm not sure if you can stay in a "true" ketonic state at 150 grams, but I still think that once you have adapted (basically cut your bodies dependency and reliance on carbs) and learned how to ride below your aerobic level that you can still ride fuel-less at some level. Each person probably has to learn what that is for themselves.
To continue:
My understanding is that this low-carb diet in combination with training "below" your aerobic level (i.e. breathing through your nose, and talk easily, etc) will have the desired effect of more or less training your body to process your fat better for your base level energy. I think a big part of it is getting you body off processed sugars and carbs.
That is really funny and we appreciate the compliment, but.... to really make this whole "ketoinc-power" or "fat for energy" state work, it is also my opinion that you cannot really "exceed" you upper aerobic limit while riding. This is because I don't really think you're body is able to break down your fat to replace your glycogen at a very fast pace. I think it is able just use the "glucose" in your blood to keep you going and it doesn't need to "steal" the "glycogen" from your muscles at that level of excursion.
Once you start really depleting your glycogen quickly in your muscles (by having a heart rate significantly higher than your aerobic level), then eventually you will use it up just like before.
This diet with training can't really change that fact. Maybe with a higher fitness level and training you can raise the ceiling of your upper aerobic limit where you don't deplete your glycogen reserves as fast.
This is were I think many athletes that use this diet and training strategy still consume "some" level of simple carbs during their races to in effect "dump" glucose" right into their bloodstream.
I think this thinking is that your body can break down and "infuse" these simple carbs into your blood (for your power) and therefore hold off the use of much of the glycogen within your muscles.
..
I can't say as I totally understand all this - and I could be "totally" off base here on many fronts as well, but what I have been doing seems to work well on some level.
I am still experimenting with heart rate levels and consumption of carbs during riding. I am sure it is a balancing act on many levels.
For me, I still want to go just as fast as I can for as long as I can - and if I have to consume carbs while riding I will do it. For instance, if I want to ride at 22mph then I can do it without fueling, but if I want to ride at 25+mph (at a sustained level for hours) then I am going to have to ingest some carbs or I will eventually bonk.
Maria, Jim , Ratz - please jump in and correct me if I have gone down a wrong path here, if you have come to understand this stuff it in a different way.
1happyreader
zen/child method
Hardy, I don't know if this diet is for you .
I am counting NET carbs ( carbs - fiber ) and limiting calories. check out the document below, could you eat like that ??
For me it's all food I like and I am not suffering cravings. but I just got started. Time will tell if my success is more than just a calorie reduction.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
I can't speak the for Maria and Jim I'm waiting on her blog post as much as everyone else, I do believe she's more deeply into the Keto end of the spectrum but that's a subjective eval and I'm very curious.
But I was the one that gave Larry the "hey did you get chubby too" email; and then recommended a book I had been handed only 3 weeks earlier. The Book is "Primal Endurance"; it's worth a read if nothing more than to broaden you scope of ideas. I went with the audio version and the first chapter of "lists" about killed me but I soldiered on and I've been through it twice.
I'm going to do the same thing I do every time I talk about books..... Read the book if you think you want to try this; reading it will tell give you the "is this for me yes or no answer." You can't do cliffs notes, or ratz notes, You shouldn't dabble in this stuff based on just summaries from the rest of us. Once you have read the book or the same articles then we have a basis to discuss and compare notes. I also hate doing these things in a vacuum, in our case we have me (I'll try anything guy with stupid will power), My wife (the scientific proof person), and Larry (the how the heck can that work engineer / think it to death guy) Pretty good combo to give it a go and compare notes.
When you distill it down: Primal Endurance is based on Primal-BluePrint which is found over at http://www.marksdailyapple.com. Primal-BluePrint over simplified is Paleo with the Dairy added back in. Building on that, Primal Endurance is BluePrint adjusted for Endurance athletes. OR even shorter Primal Endurance is a more realistic maintainable version of Paleo with enough good carbs for Endurance Athletics to succeed.
The book is preachy and they are of course trying to sell you on stuff and their life-aids to make it easier to do. You have to relax and just roll with that crap. For Larry his religious beliefs are basically in direct conflict with the books "spin," that doesn't make the approach wrong it just means you have focus on the core material as with all these sorts of things and push past the perspectives that really don't matter. I don't really care why my personal body doesn't handle sugar and grains well; I've been able to test that and verify it; I know it to be valid for me and therefore this diet aligns for me personally. Was I built that way? did I evolve that way? Sorry doesn't matter, don't care, too busy, 5 kids, 14 bikes, no time. Consider this the disclaimer: if Larry can set aside the preachy part of the book to get at the core material, most people should be able to; and if you need to vent about that part email me and Larry and we'll listen and challenge you to adapt and move past. I have never had to like someone to learn from them.
So.... The carbs in the diet come from the best sources, so you are basically dropping Grains and Grain derivatives, Sugars, and things in the Potato and Rice families. So for me the killers I had to say good by to are French Fries, Ice Cream, Beer and Breads... The rest of it Pasta, Rice, sugar I really don't miss. The wife has been working hard to create alternatives and we are doing well example: we have an awesome hamburger bun alternatives figured out. We have a pinterest board of recipes if people are interested in recipes that have been tested and will be made again. The good news is I can drink Mead this summer which frankly is better than beer; and Whisky might have been on the menu in Vegas last week.. .... Six days no riding; in Las Vegas; I gained 0.8 lbs and I was on the diet without a problem and ummmm drinking a little bit at the nightly meetings.
Ok back to the summary over simplification (read the book).
Transition to the diet occurs at 50g-100g per day that lasts two weeks.
Weight loss can continue at 50g-100g per day based on individual needs
Maintenance happens at 125g-150g per day
If you get rid of Sugar and Grain, 150g of carbs per day is a lot of food even with super foods. However, the first 2 weeks SUCKS ROCKS; if you metabolism is very use to PROCESSED sugar and REFINED grains (not the good stuff Lee and the Vegans eat, but the crap the rest of us eat too much of) you are going to suffer even with the good carbs going in (The book would call you Metabolically compromised, I would call you Americanized) ... You can eat some strawberries and you'll feel better but it's going to be short periods of time. You don't like to suffer? Sorry perhaps go elsewhere. The wife and I got through the worst of it by taking some things from race strategy; we upped our amino acid intake to 12 hour race levels; you can get them from a lot of places we just used Hammer Nutritions race Amino Formula based on past good results on 120+ mile rides; that and we supplemented with extra L-Carnitine as it has helped me burn fast easier in the past, dose with breakfast, lunch and with dinner. With the amino level jacked up our Brains didn't push us to crave the sugars near as much (brain goes, ok body "I have what I need; don't care if you are starving," brains too stupid to know there is a fridge full of food and starving isn't going to happen); ((insert bunch of reading about the central governor theory here)). If we missed the dose you could see it in the other person's mood. After two weeks that wasn't needed (yeah it was a crutch big time should not be needed but, after our big house move in October we where seriously in a bad diet place). If our cravings for sweets did drive us nuts we could eat a piece of unsweetened dark bakers chocolate; and that would solve the problem every time, but you can only go to that bitter bank so often.
After two weeks all the suffrage was gone and we both felt better by far than before we started. If I recall correctly Larry stopped bitching about headaches around day 12; he had the advantage of starting later so I could console him that it was going to turn for the good and to hang in there, but I'll throw him under the bus he wasn't thrilled with the experience at all.
There a lot of details around all this; but basically just like Atkins, of old, there is a 2 week restrictive period to get the body switched over. What you do after that initial two weeks depends on what your goals are. You will eat far healthier than Atkins and you will eat a lot of good carbs unless you twist the message of the diet (people do that; don't be that person, you probably know someone who did Atkins and tried to live perpetually on bacon; that sort of diet is coming to and "end" one way or another). I could post pictures of out meals but that's so weird but, you'd think we eat pretty good and tasty foods if I did.
For the athletic side of the equation, the transition to this approach is a lot of LONG SLOW mileage and requires getting back into the heart rate monitors (read the book, after that listen to the podcast (warning podcast has good episodes and then preachy crap ones; skip the preachy ones and get to the ones where they interview successful people)). The general guide is to train for 8-16 weeks at 180-age bpm on your heart rate (This is a reliable threshold, erring on the low side on purpose). This is really hard to do; it took me weeks and weeks of riding very carefully to get stay in those low ranges my ego as it relates to "watts" was not happy.
This BPM ensures that you burn fat during the workout and that you burn fat AFTER the workout. If you get out of your aerobic range then you dip into glycogen and that lowers the training affect. When I started this 125 watts would putt me on the nut and I could only keep my HR low enough at low cadence below 85 sometime as low at 70 rpm.... After 10 weeks; I can cruise along at 150 watts and 128bpms at 95 rpm. It was a slow process. Sometimes I had to go way slower than I wanted to. Gradually my aerobic base started to build and I could go longer and faster while staying out of my glycogen burning mode. The massive amounts of going slow was supplemented with an occasional go fast ride but never more than 1 per week. All my rides are on strava for people that want to go look at them; I have 4 more weeks of going slow. The results thus far tell me I'm going to see it through.
So I'm getting way to far into the weeds here are the results. 2 days after returning from 4 days in Las Vegas on business (both the wife and I went for work)
1) 6 days no riding.
2) I gained < 1 lb
3) Wife gained nothing.
4) Wife FTP tested today at 161watts (she was 120 end of February start of diet)
5) I FTP tested today at 210watts (I was 180 end of February start of diet)
6) I've lost 2 lbs per week I am 172lbs started around 208lbs, targeting 160lb.
7) We don't state the wife's weight loss but she's less than high school weight (carried 4 kids to term) she needs a new wardrobe, she was thin by U.S. standards before; now she's athletic fit and lean muscle.
8) I've done a few outdoor rides now. I do drink more water; but no fuel. I've ridden with a friend on DF that puts out 280watts in his sleep. I went out and was able to make him very unhappy on a 2 hour ride where I cruz-ed at the front at my 150 aerobic watts while he hammer out 200; and then I got to crush him going up hill when going 350 was trivial for the duration of the climb for me. I might have sold a V20 in that process as well. I'm stronger than last year and I'm still in my base phase. That part is very encouraging.
As for Larry..... well Calvins was a B-Tapper, he'll be humble but I have the data files, he went into the event with fatigue; and some life stress. you saw the results; the diet didn't hurt him; and yeah he used carbs for fuel; and that doesn't violate the plan or the approach; it's accepted as necessary for ultra endurance. He just didn't' need carbs to fuel the entire effort.
This not meant to be the facts; it's just a summary of how confused my brain has it when I cite it back via keyboard; read the book; pick a study; or whatever. If you go with the P.E. approach you are welcome to PM me for support and to ask the "did this happen to you" questions. I'm happy to answer those but I'm not sure the open forums is a comfortable place for that for a lot of people (unless you are an assusie).
Back to Hardy's question:
1) Run around on fat for a long as possible without feeling like crap (adapted diet),
2) Increase the speeds you can get from Fat and a Lower heart rated (adapted training).
3) When it's time to drop the hammer due to 1 and 2 you have more Glycogen left to really blast the effort (use fat + glycogen)
4) If it's race day; grab those easy access carbs use them like weapon; use them smart; and you won't need nearly the volume of anyone else.
Like any crappy scientific study with have a sample size of 3 people that are having good results. If we lump in Jim and Maria that's 5.
((I'll stop now as it will take 5 re-reads over two days to fixes all the typos that are probably lurking in this one))
***Re-read and cleanup # 1 done
But I was the one that gave Larry the "hey did you get chubby too" email; and then recommended a book I had been handed only 3 weeks earlier. The Book is "Primal Endurance"; it's worth a read if nothing more than to broaden you scope of ideas. I went with the audio version and the first chapter of "lists" about killed me but I soldiered on and I've been through it twice.
I'm going to do the same thing I do every time I talk about books..... Read the book if you think you want to try this; reading it will tell give you the "is this for me yes or no answer." You can't do cliffs notes, or ratz notes, You shouldn't dabble in this stuff based on just summaries from the rest of us. Once you have read the book or the same articles then we have a basis to discuss and compare notes. I also hate doing these things in a vacuum, in our case we have me (I'll try anything guy with stupid will power), My wife (the scientific proof person), and Larry (the how the heck can that work engineer / think it to death guy) Pretty good combo to give it a go and compare notes.
When you distill it down: Primal Endurance is based on Primal-BluePrint which is found over at http://www.marksdailyapple.com. Primal-BluePrint over simplified is Paleo with the Dairy added back in. Building on that, Primal Endurance is BluePrint adjusted for Endurance athletes. OR even shorter Primal Endurance is a more realistic maintainable version of Paleo with enough good carbs for Endurance Athletics to succeed.
The book is preachy and they are of course trying to sell you on stuff and their life-aids to make it easier to do. You have to relax and just roll with that crap. For Larry his religious beliefs are basically in direct conflict with the books "spin," that doesn't make the approach wrong it just means you have focus on the core material as with all these sorts of things and push past the perspectives that really don't matter. I don't really care why my personal body doesn't handle sugar and grains well; I've been able to test that and verify it; I know it to be valid for me and therefore this diet aligns for me personally. Was I built that way? did I evolve that way? Sorry doesn't matter, don't care, too busy, 5 kids, 14 bikes, no time.
Consider this the disclaimer: if Larry can set aside the preachy part of the book to get at the core material, most people should be able to; and if you need to vent about that part email me and Larry and we'll listen and challenge you to adapt and move past. I have never had to like someone to learn from them.So.... The carbs in the diet come from the best sources, so you are basically dropping Grains and Grain derivatives, Sugars, and things in the Potato and Rice families. So for me the killers I had to say good by to are French Fries, Ice Cream, Beer and Breads... The rest of it Pasta, Rice, sugar I really don't miss. The wife has been working hard to create alternatives and we are doing well example: we have an awesome hamburger bun alternatives figured out. We have a pinterest board of recipes if people are interested in recipes that have been tested and will be made again. The good news is I can drink Mead this summer which frankly is better than beer; and Whisky might have been on the menu in Vegas last week.. .... Six days no riding; in Las Vegas; I gained 0.8 lbs and I was on the diet without a problem and ummmm drinking a little bit at the nightly meetings.
Ok back to the summary over simplification (read the book).
Transition to the diet occurs at 50g-100g per day that lasts two weeks.
Weight loss can continue at 50g-100g per day based on individual needs
Maintenance happens at 125g-150g per day
If you get rid of Sugar and Grain, 150g of carbs per day is a lot of food even with super foods. However, the first 2 weeks SUCKS ROCKS; if you metabolism is very use to PROCESSED sugar and REFINED grains (not the good stuff Lee and the Vegans eat, but the crap the rest of us eat too much of) you are going to suffer even with the good carbs going in (The book would call you Metabolically compromised, I would call you Americanized) ... You can eat some strawberries and you'll feel better but it's going to be short periods of time. You don't like to suffer? Sorry perhaps go elsewhere. The wife and I got through the worst of it by taking some things from race strategy; we upped our amino acid intake to 12 hour race levels; you can get them from a lot of places we just used Hammer Nutritions race Amino Formula based on past good results on 120+ mile rides; that and we supplemented with extra L-Carnitine as it has helped me burn fast easier in the past, dose with breakfast, lunch and with dinner. With the amino level jacked up our Brains didn't push us to crave the sugars near as much (brain goes, ok body "I have what I need; don't care if you are starving," brains too stupid to know there is a fridge full of food and starving isn't going to happen); ((insert bunch of reading about the central governor theory here)). If we missed the dose you could see it in the other person's mood. After two weeks that wasn't needed (yeah it was a crutch big time should not be needed but, after our big house move in October we where seriously in a bad diet place). If our cravings for sweets did drive us nuts we could eat a piece of unsweetened dark bakers chocolate; and that would solve the problem every time, but you can only go to that bitter bank so often.
After two weeks all the suffrage was gone and we both felt better by far than before we started. If I recall correctly Larry stopped bitching about headaches around day 12; he had the advantage of starting later so I could console him that it was going to turn for the good and to hang in there, but I'll throw him under the bus he wasn't thrilled with the experience at all
. There a lot of details around all this; but basically just like Atkins, of old, there is a 2 week restrictive period to get the body switched over. What you do after that initial two weeks depends on what your goals are. You will eat far healthier than Atkins and you will eat a lot of good carbs unless you twist the message of the diet (people do that; don't be that person, you probably know someone who did Atkins and tried to live perpetually on bacon; that sort of diet is coming to and "end" one way or another). I could post pictures of out meals but that's so weird but, you'd think we eat pretty good and tasty foods if I did.
For the athletic side of the equation, the transition to this approach is a lot of LONG SLOW mileage and requires getting back into the heart rate monitors (read the book, after that listen to the podcast (warning podcast has good episodes and then preachy crap ones; skip the preachy ones and get to the ones where they interview successful people)). The general guide is to train for 8-16 weeks at 180-age bpm on your heart rate (This is a reliable threshold, erring on the low side on purpose). This is really hard to do; it took me weeks and weeks of riding very carefully to get stay in those low ranges my ego as it relates to "watts" was not happy.
This BPM ensures that you burn fat during the workout and that you burn fat AFTER the workout. If you get out of your aerobic range then you dip into glycogen and that lowers the training affect. When I started this 125 watts would putt me on the nut and I could only keep my HR low enough at low cadence below 85 sometime as low at 70 rpm.... After 10 weeks; I can cruise along at 150 watts and 128bpms at 95 rpm. It was a slow process. Sometimes I had to go way slower than I wanted to. Gradually my aerobic base started to build and I could go longer and faster while staying out of my glycogen burning mode. The massive amounts of going slow was supplemented with an occasional go fast ride but never more than 1 per week. All my rides are on strava for people that want to go look at them; I have 4 more weeks of going slow. The results thus far tell me I'm going to see it through.
So I'm getting way to far into the weeds here are the results. 2 days after returning from 4 days in Las Vegas on business (both the wife and I went for work)
1) 6 days no riding.
2) I gained < 1 lb
3) Wife gained nothing.
4) Wife FTP tested today at 161watts (she was 120 end of February start of diet)
5) I FTP tested today at 210watts (I was 180 end of February start of diet)
6) I've lost 2 lbs per week I am 172lbs started around 208lbs, targeting 160lb.
7) We don't state the wife's weight loss but she's less than high school weight (carried 4 kids to term) she needs a new wardrobe, she was thin by U.S. standards before; now she's athletic fit and lean muscle.
8) I've done a few outdoor rides now. I do drink more water; but no fuel. I've ridden with a friend on DF that puts out 280watts in his sleep. I went out and was able to make him very unhappy on a 2 hour ride where I cruz-ed at the front at my 150 aerobic watts while he hammer out 200; and then I got to crush him going up hill when going 350 was trivial for the duration of the climb for me. I might have sold a V20 in that process as well. I'm stronger than last year and I'm still in my base phase. That part is very encouraging.
As for Larry..... well Calvins was a B-Tapper, he'll be humble but I have the data files, he went into the event with fatigue; and some life stress. you saw the results; the diet didn't hurt him; and yeah he used carbs for fuel; and that doesn't violate the plan or the approach; it's accepted as necessary for ultra endurance. He just didn't' need carbs to fuel the entire effort.
This not meant to be the facts; it's just a summary of how confused my brain has it when I cite it back via keyboard; read the book; pick a study; or whatever. If you go with the P.E. approach you are welcome to PM me for support and to ask the "did this happen to you" questions. I'm happy to answer those but I'm not sure the open forums is a comfortable place for that for a lot of people (unless you are an assusie).
Back to Hardy's question:
1) Run around on fat for a long as possible without feeling like crap (adapted diet),
2) Increase the speeds you can get from Fat and a Lower heart rated (adapted training).
3) When it's time to drop the hammer due to 1 and 2 you have more Glycogen left to really blast the effort (use fat + glycogen)
4) If it's race day; grab those easy access carbs use them like weapon; use them smart; and you won't need nearly the volume of anyone else.
Like any crappy scientific study with have a sample size of 3 people that are having good results. If we lump in Jim and Maria that's 5.
((I'll stop now as it will take 5 re-reads over two days to fixes all the typos that are probably lurking in this one))
***Re-read and cleanup # 1 done
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Putting some numbers behind the long slow training secondary part of this topic. Admittedly these are just my poor average numbers; but that's probably better than If I had great superstar ones.
Graph 1 - March 8th; I tried one of my first long slow rides. Killed me to get 2.5 hours at 133watts and keep my HR below or at 133. It was constant challenge and I had to use every trick I could think of.
Graph 2 - March 9th; so tired from previous effort couldn't hold 117w at 131bpm had to slow cadence way way down.
Basically my aerobic engine sucked when I started this training, I couldn't generate any base watts without pushing my heart into tempo zone and leveraging Glycogen. Staying out of that zone showed me how weak I was for anything longer than 1-1.5 hours in duration.
Graph 3 - May 9th; roughly 60 days later and 35 training rides. 143w at 119 bpm, not really challenged on that front or 3 hours.
So progress; I can now put out more watts and stay aerobic and not burn Glycogen all with better speed. Still have 4 weeks and 24 training rides to go to finish this base building; but I find it very interesting that I had to slow down and go easier to become more efficient to go faster.
Graph 1 - March 8th; I tried one of my first long slow rides. Killed me to get 2.5 hours at 133watts and keep my HR below or at 133. It was constant challenge and I had to use every trick I could think of.
Graph 2 - March 9th; so tired from previous effort couldn't hold 117w at 131bpm had to slow cadence way way down.
Basically my aerobic engine sucked when I started this training, I couldn't generate any base watts without pushing my heart into tempo zone and leveraging Glycogen. Staying out of that zone showed me how weak I was for anything longer than 1-1.5 hours in duration.
Graph 3 - May 9th; roughly 60 days later and 35 training rides. 143w at 119 bpm, not really challenged on that front or 3 hours.
So progress; I can now put out more watts and stay aerobic and not burn Glycogen all with better speed. Still have 4 weeks and 24 training rides to go to finish this base building; but I find it very interesting that I had to slow down and go easier to become more efficient to go faster.
Ratz, with respect I see two flaws in the above:- (your post 55)
i) The first is that you are training with HR rather than power. IME heartrate can fluctuate depending on previous day's training, temperature, and diet. For example if you have a 'bullet proof coffee' for breakfast then this would raise your HR which would effect the zone to train in.
ii) The second is the equation that you have used to work out your threshold, there are more scientific ways of doing this if you have a power meter to hand and I think using this would be better then simply subtracting your age from 180.
IMO if people do want to train a la endurance a la low carb, then:-
i) Work out your FTP, or do a three MMP test. If you are training with HR then do a ramp test to get your MHR.
ii) Use Coogans chart to work out power zones, or input your three minute figure/MHR figure here.https://wattbike.com/uk/heart-rate-and-power-training-zones
Train within zone 2, increasing the time and lowering the carb intake. And I'd say every two weeks carry out a 'de-coupling test', details here:-http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling to see where you are with your aerobic endurance. This will give you a better picture of where your base fitness is at.
Adjust accordingly.
Sorry if the above has been raised already. I assume that people have a power meter in the above. If you do have a power meter than I would suggest training with power rather than HR.
i) The first is that you are training with HR rather than power. IME heartrate can fluctuate depending on previous day's training, temperature, and diet. For example if you have a 'bullet proof coffee' for breakfast then this would raise your HR which would effect the zone to train in.
ii) The second is the equation that you have used to work out your threshold, there are more scientific ways of doing this if you have a power meter to hand and I think using this would be better then simply subtracting your age from 180.
IMO if people do want to train a la endurance a la low carb, then:-
i) Work out your FTP, or do a three MMP test. If you are training with HR then do a ramp test to get your MHR.
ii) Use Coogans chart to work out power zones, or input your three minute figure/MHR figure here.https://wattbike.com/uk/heart-rate-and-power-training-zones
Train within zone 2, increasing the time and lowering the carb intake. And I'd say every two weeks carry out a 'de-coupling test', details here:-http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling to see where you are with your aerobic endurance. This will give you a better picture of where your base fitness is at.
Adjust accordingly.
Sorry if the above has been raised already. I assume that people have a power meter in the above. If you do have a power meter than I would suggest training with power rather than HR.
Last edited:
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I can attest to having a similar experience as Bob, although due to my training regime, I must admit that I only took a 4-week block of "aerobic rides".
Thinking back, I'll have to say I remember my first week and first ride (after being on the diet for only 5 days) was most severe!
Test #1 : 3 hour on trainer at 130bmp
It is quite funny now looking back on it. I got up early Saturday for my long ride as I usually do. I think I was going to try to do a 4-hour ride, and try to average around 130bpm. How hard could it be, when I usually am pushing my heart rate into up 150's for that level or longer. It will be an "easy" workout I though. Yeah right. I started out at 200 watts, that lasted for maybe 10 minutes and my heart rate started to rise, so I dropped the power to 190, then 180, and I was finally down to 170 watts after only 45 minutes. Then after 2 hours I had to drop it down to 160 just to keep my pulse from going over 135. After 3 hours I was totally wasted. I felt like I had been run over by a truck, like I had bonked. I don't remember feeling this bad (or tired) after ANY ride in my entire life (even 24 hours at Sebring!). I was a complete waste for the entire day. My wife was slightly upset that I was of no use around the house that day. Usually I do my long ride and jump right into whatever weekend chores and work I need to accomplish. But not today. Here is my Strava data: https://www.strava.com/activities/520884019
I can remember emailing and wining: to Bob - " what is this that you have 'suggested to me' - How can this be helping me?" He assured me it would pass, and to hold the course.
Glad he was there and could validate what I was feeling and was able to tell me it would be better - and it did.
1 week later:
Test #2: 4:40 of riding in 6:33 on track at 132 bpm
It was a very hard week of - riding "easy", but feeling hard, and being so tired. I think it was a combination of sugar withdrawal and getting the body acclimated to using my fat at those exersion levels.
Well - I held the course (diet and aerobic rides only) for the next week and decided to go out to the track and do some testing. I was going to try and do an honest 100 miles without any fuel and see what it "felt" like. I did not do it non-stop however, as I had some other testing of wheels and tires I also wanted to accomplish. Therefore I only rode 4.0 mile segments and then stopped for a couple minutes to changes wheelsets. Total elapsed time was 6:33, and total ride time was 4:40. Most of my 4 mile intervals where at about 150 watts with HR average 130bpm. This was vastly different than only 1 week ago and I was pleased, but I did manage to have nearly 110 minutes of "rest" time while changing wheels, so it still was not a non-stop Century test. Strava data: https://www.strava.com/activities/527503209/laps
1 week later:
Test #3: 100 miles at 120bmp - and 117 watt average
The next week I was determined to do a full Century (with no fuel) with maybe only a stop to relieve myself or get a drink. I was still apprehensive about going up to my "upper" aerobic" limit of about 132bmp, so I decided to target my heart rate at around 120bmp and just let my wattage fall where it may. That worked fine and I was starting to become a believer after this. It was quite amazed after I was done. My power output did slowly decay from 124 down to 113 watts in the 4:46 that I rode, but that is expected.
strava data: https://www.strava.com/activities/532974919
1 week later
Test #4: : 111 miles at 137bpm and 145 watts
Ok - my final fuel less Century test. Now that I had been on the diet and training for nearly 4 weeks I was ready to try a fuel-less Century at my "upper" aerobic limit of around 135bpm.
I still did "a little" other testing and was swapping out a back wheel at 20 mile intervals or something like that, but very quickly this time
My power at 132bpm started out at around 150 watts, and slowly went down through the ride down to about 131 watts. I think I completed the Century in around 4:32 or something close, and all I had to drink was 30 ounces of water!
Then after the full 100 miles was done, I did yet another test to prove to myself that I still had plenty of the precious glycogen in my muscles: I rode a 5 mile segment averaging 207 watts. My HR topped out at around 172bpm. I felt great - and not like I had just completed a century in 4 1/2 hours just moments ago. I was sold on the plan. I was amazed at my progression through this test, and ready for more.
strava data: https://www.strava.com/activities/547501171/laps
2 weeks later I did 12 hours at Calvins on only 600 calories of fuel.
Of course, this doesn't come close to comparing to Maria's 24 ride at Bessie's Creek on a couple of crackers or something like that? Amazing!
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Yep I can see that conclusion, especially if you assume I'm training solely to increase my FTP. For the record I was 100% with you last year, I would have written exactly what you did. So that probably proves I can't make up my mind, we aren't that far apart, or we are all trying to learn more and more... hmmm probably a little of both?
So there is definitely a stigma about using the HR monitor to "train with" and that is the risk of doing summaries on Forums. Aka read the book(s) everyone. Right now, i am not training to increase my FTP specifically; I'm training to run better in my Aerobic Zone, so I'm training with HR and Power on a very detailed plan, I'm using HR as a feedback loop to see how I respond to the training and to be the other side of the coin. Just because I can go out and ride at 85-90% of my FTP doesn't mean that I should if it doesn't align with my goals.
(As a side note: Right now my FTP is a lot less then my local riding friends; but I'm already out performing the lower ⅔'s of them that have better power numbers than me. If the ride is over 1.5 hours; and has some climbing which negates the V20 advantage; I'm pretty comfortable owning them unless the pace line is 6 deep; there are some semi-pro age classer triathletes around that I can't touch
)Ok back at it because I think your response is great for moving the discussion forward.
The 180-age is a very conservative and sure to be below your threshold approach. It's coming from Dr. Phil Mafetone who has training many hundreds of world class athletes dating back to before the days of the HR monitor. This is the guy that pretty much hooked people to portable EKG's at the track. It could be Argued that he would have more real world data than anyone else on the matter. Who knows what the Eastern Block has for data from the cold war era
, Granted that data is mostly runners in the early days; but he's added cyclists in the later years. Like any expert he's strongly opinionated at his approach and there are plenty of detractors. Skeptics move the world forward right?....There is a missing key here and that's where trying to do summaries sucks (or rather I suck at it), but we are in the marsh so lets keep walking we are doing really good at discussing and not arguing so I'm game. (kudos to everyone on that). This would be so much more fun over the BBQ on the porch, no?
So the goal is not using HR to make sure the workout is hard enough; but rather per the plan, it's to make sure the effort is not too hard for a given day and life conditions. Many athletes over train and break down because they are crapy and monitoring stress and fatigue. (If there were good they wouldn't need coaches to tell them to go harder or easier). Everyone probably knows someone that over trains... ((right larry?))
HR is going to measure how your body is reacting to the training stimulus on a given day and yes coffee. lack of sleep, or even forgetting to turn on the fan in the training room is going to affect the body' reaction and your HR reading, so hitting a target intensity with HR is really hard to do reliably and I think that is well accepted. So the power meter is king for measuring how hard the stimulus is second over second. That relegates the HR meter to telling you over multiple minute what your body is having to do to cope with all stimulus and stress combined it's a macro metric compared to the power meter.
There's a ton of research emerging now in the space of HR and HRVariability with regard to reaction to stimulus and recovery. As we rediscover that we need to pay attention to Fatigue and over-Training the breakdown of HR is being redefined as important again. Bikers are lucky we have power meters, runners and swimmers don't so they continue to study HR and get us more knowledge, this is a good thin to my way of thinking.
Most bike riders still understand that the heart-rate monitor will tell you when you go into the red zone for anaerobic; go to far in the red and you go backwards; watch the Grand Tour's each year in the mountains and watch the boys go red and go backwards it's always fascinating. If HR wasn't useful those boys wouldn't be wearing them. So we accept that the HR can monitor when you hit anaerobic debt. But at the same time we ignore it's ability to monitor aerobic threshold. Why is that? Well because the aerobic tipping point is super dam hard to find and everyone disagrees as to where it is. (big whole discussion there; I'm banking on Mafetone, there are other schools of thought that could be followed.).
The other reason we don't pay much attention to aerobic threshold isthat in the quest for quick short term results we've abandoned long slow training in favor of short high intensity training? ((there's a funny abbreviations there if you are all paying attention))
. When you train that way you don't really have to care where the Aerobic threshold is; you can be much fuzzier about it because most of the training is sub 1.5 hour and much is in the 60 minute range and completely within the Glycogen supply duration; if you only burn Glycogen you have enough to complete the training. I believe short high intensity work, and they work really really well to get stronger, but I've also watch people unable to maintain that for more the 3-5 years before burn out and break down sets in. The secondary problem was that such training didn't personally help me control weight and left me with a great bodily impetus to have a really crappy diet and eating habits and the instant the training stop *boom*. That's a personal weakness and failing that the training didn't cause but it certainly enabled supported last year; ((this is my big concession that if I eat like Lee encrouages I might not have had this problem, but I've also accepted I'm not ready for that yet, maybe some day may be not))So riders can just go out and attack power as a target and a fixed prescribed plan; and get great results, but for many people life isn't level and consistent to succeed that way. Full time athletes can structure there world to try and achieve that; the rest of us have to survive as best we can. We have to measure our reaction to the training based on life. Example in my world of regularly sleeping 3-4 hours 5 days a week, I can't just go out and ride an FTP plan, I start to break down, I need to measure my immediate reaction to the training and stay within my targets and that is much more than power output. I need FTP to scale my work outs and challenge myself; but Perceived Exertion Level alone does not tell me how I'm reacting, but I if I combine PEL, HR, an the Power meter, I now find I can get a much better idea of my whole picture and adapt to the needs of the day.
So coming back around yes 180-age is a gross over simplification; but under shooting is better than over shooting within the very specific goal of trying to increase the efficiency of burning fat and staying aerobic at higher power levels, End of the day It's easy and most people can do it correctly. It's one tool in the quiver. It's also very effective if the primary goal is weight loss and burning off excess body fat, without the strain of going supper hard. It's a given that going hard burns more calories per hour and as a percentage you can burn more fat in less time during the workout; but that comes with an increase in body strain and fatigue; but also that fat burning stops when the work stops. The slower controlled aerobic approach burns the fat during the workout; and depending how you eat afterwards the studies suggest you continue to burn fat for many hours afterwards. Especially effective if you can train after dinner and then not eat again until breakfast.
As to the bullet points in case someone skimmed all of this dribble drabble above. (1) FTP yes you need to know that; and it's far better than the results from a ramp test and MHR. Flaws in the ramp test and getting it "right" are well documented as we all know. FTP is far preferred if you got it use it. (2) I'll agree completely that Coogans power zones are good; those are the ones I use because Friel's never line up correctly for me, so there's my Bias, I find Mafetone is very runner centric, Friel is Triathlete focuses and Coogan is neutral or cycling focused. Use each as you will. (3) Decoupling tests are very useful for periodic measure. I do them. When I started all of this I would decouple at 1.25 - 1.5 hours right around the time the Glycogen appeared to get used up; and it was rather dramatic. Right now if I put no fuel in I will decouple around 4-5 hours in. I'm careful to make that a relative measure so as to adjust for temperature; fatigue etc. I think the decoupling concept is one of the most astute things that Friel came up with as a key test (I think it was his idea first I would have to go check that memory). We could do a whole thread on that.
Ok summary; HR as a feedback control metric; don't use it blindly understand as much as you can about what it's good for, but don't discount it. FTP as king for setting target intensity day over day. 180-age is a very conservative but workable threshold stolen from the running world and the data suggest sit's equal to or better than % of max heart rate in the grand debate of where is this illusive aerobic threshold really at. It's definitely the more conservative number; and that the side to error on.
If you are following from the bleachers then here it comes you know it's coming: read the book, read the studies. Then add your interpretations to the discussion, the more minds the better. In the meantime I think Larry and I will keep experimenting at our own peril and keep reporting in.
**dam another post that will require proof reading, but off to the day job, I'm late.
trplay
Zen MBB Master
Might I ask what were those 600 calories of fuel?
1happyreader
zen/child method
page 6 of whose going to calvins thread
"
Nutrition summary:
I rode the entire 12 hours on 4 scoops of Infinite, 2 scoops of perpetuam, and one swig of warm chocolate milk. Last year I used 2 1/2 scoops of Infinite each hour (=30 scoops). 5 times more fueling last year! No cramping, did not run out of energy, and could hammer at the end.
"
