Diet: Low Carb and Ultra Cycling
- Thread starter ratz
- Start date
castlerobber
Zen MBB Master
Sorry, Lee, I'm confused. "Extremely high" cholesterol? This person's average total cholesterol from 2008-2014 is 230, which is considered only borderline high by current standards. His average LDL is 131, on the line between near-optimal and borderline high. Both of these markers have proved to be poor predictors of heart disease risk. More accurate are HDL (his average is 88, well over the 60+ considered good) and triglycerides (likewise excellent, averaging in the mid-60s). His fasting glucose stays around 95, A1c around 5. Waist measurement, blood pressure, BMI--all ideal. No metabolic syndrome. I don't see how your subject could be considered unhealthy...what am I missing here?
Lief
Guru Schmuru
Thanks Lee - skepticism is healthy and beneficial to moving the conversation forward; increasing clarity.
I'd hoped it was clear that this is just my story - not reference material for anyone else's behavior or decisions.
I suppose it might add to the stimulus to find out more about your individual situation perhaps...like reading the book.
The book doesn't take as many liberties as I did in my blog post from 2011.
Also sharing in the gestalt of a damned interesting thread - not to be found on many(any?) other bike forum methinks. (I haven't looked).
Started right before thanksgiving too - ooh that stunk at first but I got over it.
My primary source of "sugars" was simple carbs (chips and pasta etc) and candy - lots of candy.
I think we're in agreement on the portion you highlighted; it's duly caveated, as " for me ", and the effect on those factors was unquestionable.
Even 'for me' that sort of thing could change in the future - everything and everyone is always in a state of transition.
It remains, 5 years later, unquestionably tied together - for me.
Everything has trade-offs - which I think is your point here
I'll be following up with my naturopath on this as well - until now I've not investigated any other tradeoffs because the benefit (low triglycerides and no eczema and no asthma) was a big upside.
Some thoughts on those
I won't speculate on why / how he failed - but he did. I came away scared and confused by the lack of information provided and as-presented.
Wrong/Right is a value judgement that I'll stay away from for now. It just is.
[Or, if you are so inclined, " 'That which He has granted' is worth paying attention to."]
The book that started this thread, as noted, dives heavily into several existing cultures and tries to make a correlation to the evolutionary adaptation (or granted-ness) of LCHF diet.
All that to say that your point is well taken and supported by the approach we are learning about.
Thanks for keeping me/us honest.
I agree - semantics matter, so does context.
I'd hoped it was clear that this is just my story - not reference material for anyone else's behavior or decisions.
I suppose it might add to the stimulus to find out more about your individual situation perhaps...like reading the book.
The book doesn't take as many liberties as I did in my blog post from 2011.
Also sharing in the gestalt of a damned interesting thread - not to be found on many(any?) other bike forum methinks. (I haven't looked).
I lumped all sugars together in my blog post because I was near zero carb intake, as best I could, for about 3-4 months.
Started right before thanksgiving too - ooh that stunk at first but I got over it.
My primary source of "sugars" was simple carbs (chips and pasta etc) and candy - lots of candy.
I think we're in agreement on the portion you highlighted; it's duly caveated, as " for me ", and the effect on those factors was unquestionable.
Even 'for me' that sort of thing could change in the future - everything and everyone is always in a state of transition.
It remains, 5 years later, unquestionably tied together - for me.
Everything has trade-offs - which I think is your point here
I agree - I'm looking into those tradeoffs by reading the book and studying up.
I'll be following up with my naturopath on this as well - until now I've not investigated any other tradeoffs because the benefit (low triglycerides and no eczema and no asthma) was a big upside.
This guy's numbers amounts to yet another "for me" anecdote.
Some thoughts on those
- His triglycerides were "up" but you'll see that they bounce around near the bottom of the reference range on the right.
- My attendant naturopath indicated "no test is perfect, there can be false positives, and day-to-day numbers can vary but what we are looking for is a trend"
- It'd be good to see his levels from blood work from before he started the LCHF diet. Personally, I'd lay bets on the direction they moved but that'd be gambling.
- Several months of tests showed my triglycerides over 260, 270+
- In my case my HDL (good cholesterol) was fine and could be better
- My LDL (bad cholesterol) was ok but could be better
- But my triglycerides were well outside the reference range (270+ - you see the high end of the reference range on the link is 230)
- The combo of the three of them is what gets aggregated to make your overall "cholesterol" number.
- This guys HDL and LDL might be impacted by his LCHF diet? or maybe something else...maybe many things.
- I'm mildly interested in the context of his numbers - but not enough to read more on his page or look him up.
I won't speculate on why / how he failed - but he did. I came away scared and confused by the lack of information provided and as-presented.
I didn't track my weight; it wasn't the point and really still isn't. It's a positive side effect (for me as a cyclist) and one marker among many of my new state of health.Just because one loses weight with a lifestyle does not mean it is healthy.
Again we agree - although semantics being what they are, I think what you mean is something like "x number of yrs of evolution is worth paying attention to."
Wrong/Right is a value judgement that I'll stay away from for now. It just is.
[Or, if you are so inclined, " 'That which He has granted' is worth paying attention to."]
The book that started this thread, as noted, dives heavily into several existing cultures and tries to make a correlation to the evolutionary adaptation (or granted-ness) of LCHF diet.
All that to say that your point is well taken and supported by the approach we are learning about.
Thanks for keeping me/us honest.
I take your point regarding his triglycerides and cholesterol that I was over enthusiastic with my wording. However:-
His average of 230 is 10 points below the level of 240 which most would consider borderline high, and his values in 2012 and 2009 are 'high'.
His 'bad' LDL has risen more than his 'good' HDL by a factor of 7.1ish:1!!
The subject imo is unhealthy due to his higher than normal levels of cholesterol, if you do some more digging for blood test results you can unearth some true shockers - all advocates of HFLC. Jimmy Moore for example is a classic, his blood values are insane. http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/...l-thyroid-and-other-health-test-results/23857
Levels of 288, 84 and 193 for Cholesterol, HDL and LDL respectfully. The man imo is a walking heart attack waiting to happen. And whilst we are on the subject, Mark Sisson, heart attack, Dr Atkins, heart attack, all advocates of low carb.
Understand though that I have nothing against the low carb diet. What I do have a problem with though is people going on about how sugar is somehow wrong for you (generally speaking, not pointing no fingers). And the fact that a low carb diet usually means eating meat and dairy. Both of which are extremely unhealthy. I won't post any links, but a bit of googling and you can easily find a wealth of vids and articles presented by leading Doctors in nutrition a la, Gregor, Campbell, Esselstyn etc.
I've posted some stuff over in the Vegan thread if people want to go and read it. Some good vids on cognitive dissonance, blood values for a HCLF vegan and Dr Esselstyn giving a superb brief on reducing heart disease with a plant based diet.
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ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
This remains one of my concerns; my family is either gone young or ancient. As part of engaging in my choice to try this diet both the wife and I will be having some regular tests done in this area. I'm not as up on the topic as Lief is, as I've not had to deal with what he has, I will once I get results add that info to the thread; and see how they compare to the last time I had to get insurance, followed by a followup check later on. This is only a reasonable safety check and not doing it would be myopic; of course that will just make me one data point; but 1+1 = 2 and so on.
Jerrye
Spam Slayer
I have thoroughly enjoyed following this thread so far!
I have stayed out of this to this point, waiting to hear a particular perspective factored into the discussion, but I don't believe it has been...so I'll toss it into the ring. If this has come up in this discussion, please forgive me for missing it.
Individual physiology.
Doctors practice medicine because it is not an exact science. Yes, there are major trends to observe, and generally speaking, a particular symptom leads to a particular diagnosis-but not with absolute certainty. There are always variations. In clinical trials and lab experiments, these are the +/- factors. In the entertainment world, it gave us "House."
Case in point was my dad. If anyone should have died from lung cancer, or died young from a heart attack, it would have been him. Asbestos contamination in his lungs (now usually diagnosed as mesothelioma) from a long career in the glazing industry (from late 50's-mid 80's retirement), along with a 2 1/2 pack a day smoking habit, adding in high cholesterol as well as untreated hypertension for most of his adulthood combined with congestive heart failure, should have taken him in his 50's. It didn't.
His first heart attack was at age 70, and his death occurred from complications from another heart attack at 73. I was told by my doctor that my dad having his first heart attack at 70 is statistically insignificant for me in evaluating family medical history.
My point in this is that though there are trends that are usually accepted as accurate, each individual's body is different enough to allow room for varying opinions from what we have been brought to believe (usually from our own experiences) to be universally true.
MTCW...or, maybe, it's not even worth two cents.
I have stayed out of this to this point, waiting to hear a particular perspective factored into the discussion, but I don't believe it has been...so I'll toss it into the ring. If this has come up in this discussion, please forgive me for missing it.
Individual physiology.
Doctors practice medicine because it is not an exact science. Yes, there are major trends to observe, and generally speaking, a particular symptom leads to a particular diagnosis-but not with absolute certainty. There are always variations. In clinical trials and lab experiments, these are the +/- factors. In the entertainment world, it gave us "House."
Case in point was my dad. If anyone should have died from lung cancer, or died young from a heart attack, it would have been him. Asbestos contamination in his lungs (now usually diagnosed as mesothelioma) from a long career in the glazing industry (from late 50's-mid 80's retirement), along with a 2 1/2 pack a day smoking habit, adding in high cholesterol as well as untreated hypertension for most of his adulthood combined with congestive heart failure, should have taken him in his 50's. It didn't.
His first heart attack was at age 70, and his death occurred from complications from another heart attack at 73. I was told by my doctor that my dad having his first heart attack at 70 is statistically insignificant for me in evaluating family medical history.
My point in this is that though there are trends that are usually accepted as accurate, each individual's body is different enough to allow room for varying opinions from what we have been brought to believe (usually from our own experiences) to be universally true.
MTCW...or, maybe, it's not even worth two cents.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Well said Jerry.I have thoroughly enjoyed following this thread so far!
I have stayed out of this to this point, waiting to hear a particular perspective factored into the discussion, but I don't believe it has been...so I'll toss it into the ring. If this has come up in this discussion, please forgive me for missing it.
Individual physiology.
....
MTCW...or, maybe, it's not even worth two cents.
For me, what you have stated is always implied with diets, exercise, even training and racing.
Each of us has to continually experiment and find the "things" that work best for us.
Something that works extremely well for one, may not work for the other - and neither person may be able to ever know why.
trplay
Zen MBB Master
How is that wacko diet coming along you ask? It has been 6 weeks and 22 pounds ago. One more pound and my Vendetta will weigh zero. Well then how's the climbing on a 1 pound bike you ask? Surprisingly not any faster speed wise but it is a lot easier. Hard to explain but kinda like when you have a 5-6 mph wind at your back when climbing. Hmmm how do you feel? Hungry as hail. Any words of wisdom gained from this experiment? Yep and here they are:
* It worked for me
* Is it healthy? No clue, but lots of anti LCHF diet folks out there. Lab report due this week might give me an idea.
* The “Don’t eat animal evangelicals” will insult you.
* What I did learn was LCHF, Vegan, and vegetarians, all die of heart attacks at about the same levels but this doesn’t stop them from spinning the data like a politician.
* You can ride long distances (over 100 miles) with no food supplements and feel fine.
* The most important thing of all: Recognizing loading up with processed sugar products before, during , and after the ride is insane. Limit or drop completely the supplement products with refined sugar (food/drink).
*Another interesting note is Ms. Daisy has not bought into the high fat aspects (Ketosis) diet but has been running a parallel diet eliminating sugar and moderation of regular foods. Her diet appears to be as effective as mine. Her stamina on the bike is not as good but it never has been.
* It worked for me
* Is it healthy? No clue, but lots of anti LCHF diet folks out there. Lab report due this week might give me an idea.
* The “Don’t eat animal evangelicals” will insult you.
* What I did learn was LCHF, Vegan, and vegetarians, all die of heart attacks at about the same levels but this doesn’t stop them from spinning the data like a politician.
* You can ride long distances (over 100 miles) with no food supplements and feel fine.
* The most important thing of all: Recognizing loading up with processed sugar products before, during , and after the ride is insane. Limit or drop completely the supplement products with refined sugar (food/drink).
*Another interesting note is Ms. Daisy has not bought into the high fat aspects (Ketosis) diet but has been running a parallel diet eliminating sugar and moderation of regular foods. Her diet appears to be as effective as mine. Her stamina on the bike is not as good but it never has been.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Human like to insult humans I don't think that's limited to evangelicals and mostly I don't think they are really trying to insult, sometimes we take it that way. Growth opportunity for me I know my relatives give me ample practice on regular occasion and with predictable assuredly.
Heart attacks - ok you pointed the finger at all of us. That's fair. I don't have moderate that.
Ms Daisy is interesting and I suspected that; much of this is about getting rid of the crap and then figuring out what you like to eat so you can maintain it. It also forces you to evolve as you learn to like other things; and progress along the spectrum.
Will be interested in your test results.
My weekend.
Day (1) Move 6.5 tons of pavers in the rain, ate a nut based oatmeal replacment with berries for breakfast, never stopped for lunch felt fine all day; around 8pm finally ate a normal dinner
Day (2) Did about the same amount of physical work finishing laying the pavers and buying and hauling more to finish the project same thing never got hungry ate lightly; then worked until 3am on the Business
Day (3) Memorial day; got up at 5:00am had a coffee to because 2 hours of sleep sucks (but I have been systematically working to lower caffeine I'm about 1/2 of where I was) and then went out and rode a century on just some almond butter at mile 95. Other than having to take bathroom breaks far too often due to the 59F temps it was a good ride, and now I'm hanging out with the kids enjoying the fruits of Day 1 and 2 on the new patio. might be hungry enough for dinner by 6pm. I did make sure to get enough carbs probably 120g from greens and sweet potatoes the night before because I knew I was going to ride if I could get at least 2 hours of sleep. Ride would have been better if more sleep time had been at hand; and if the first 50 hadn't been up hill into a 10mph wind with a rain coat on for warmth. I've lost enough body size now that I need to get tighter fitting accessories; felt like I was dragging a parachute those first 50; so we'll call that a training aid. (also got to test the fly12, and I had a dog try and make me a chew toy, but that's for another thread).
1) With good reason, 60 billion animals a year die needlessly, do immense harm to the environment and is a contributing factor to the leading killer - heart disease. Nothing to do with the gospel or preaching, just science.
http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/
2) Not spinning no data like a politician, due to the lower level of cholesterol and saturated fat veggies and vegans are at a reduced risk from a heart disease: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26853923
(one of many studies)
3) You don't need to be on a Keto diet to do this. As long as you stick to Z1 and Z2 in terms of power and drink water this can be done on any diet.
4) Agreed although I'd add to this and limit/remove the foods that have a large amount of saturated fat i.e. cake, biscuits. But lean plant based carbs are fine. Bananas, rice, potatoes etc.
Cannot beat a couple of 4 banana smoothies before a ride.
EDIT: Of the 22lbs that you have lost, some of that would have been water weight. What happens when you go into Ketosis is that the body rids itself of any excess water. The body needs roughly 4g of water for every 1g of carb - hence the term carboHYDRATE. No carbs means excess water gets excreted from the system.
Did you measure your body fat as a % before you went on the diet? What is it now?
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Zzzorse
Zen MBB Master
Wow, what a life story.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
She was the focus of one of the TransAm video documentaries if I recalled.
http://www.outsideonline.com/1970876/toughest-woman-two-wheels
http://www.outsideonline.com/1970876/toughest-woman-two-wheels
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
The two I watch on the trainer are:
- Bicycle dreams,
- Inspired to Ride.
If just doing audio it's
- Hell on Two wheels by Amy Snyder (that one is a must)
I just have to try an not remember that Breedlove and Robic are no longer with us;
DavidCH
In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
Anyone tried cashew nuts in their smoothies? I have been following Larry's suggestion with making cashew milk. The residue I eat with the fruit at lunch time. Very good. I also have been doubling up my plate with tuna steaks and broccoli with carrots. Now that one makes my stomach rumble.
Lief
Guru Schmuru
yes - with regularity. I don't have the patience for making nut milks myself so I bought a kick-butt Vitamix blender.
Since 2015 racing season I found that ~4 smoothies a week reduced my on-ride cramping.
My typical (does NOT taste amazing) smoothie recipe goes like this:
* salad sized serving of spinach/kale/or whatever powermix greens we have (if it's all kale the end result is bitter)
* 1-2cups of Soy or Coconut milk
* 1/2 -1 cup of nuts (mixed are good) but cashews or almonds or pine nuts or hemp seeds are options
* a blop of vanilla
* tablespoon? of cinnamon (it's a lot)
* chunk of ginger-root
* 4-5-6 shakes of turmeric
* 1-2 cups of frozen blueberries (that's my favorite but options include frozen bananas, frozen strawberries (might break lesser blenders), frozen mixed berries)
* water or ice after the fact to make it all blend for about a minute or two - frothy.
Put the heavy stuff on top/in last.
Some other options:
* Protein powder
* Peanut butter
* small beet if we have some (changes the flavor fast)
Serves 2ish meals of smoothie (2 28? oz cups full)
After I make my way through the keto-adapted book I may change this recipe accordingly but for now I basically get the same thing each time.
One breakthrough in taste was adding the nuts - they toned down a lot of the bitter/high-notes of the rest of it. If you don't blend as well or as long you'll get nut crumbles, which I happen to like just fine.
Rick Youngblood
CarbonCraft Master
PLUS ONE on the Vitamix. My wife and I added one to our kitchen arsenal a few years back. It does the job and does it good.
DavidCH
In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
Hey... The power to weight ratio is working. I am still in the big chainwheel on some of the hills now without changing down. I have also got to 81 kg which I haven't been for a very long time.
The best thing is about this diet is I don't feel so hungry. I also notice that some of the ice cream no sugar products in Spain have fructose so that's a no no. I will have to start making my own ice cream .
The best thing is about this diet is I don't feel so hungry. I also notice that some of the ice cream no sugar products in Spain have fructose so that's a no no. I will have to start making my own ice cream .
trplay
Zen MBB Master
Good news, bad news , and just news.
The Lab report is in and it isn’t good. The LDL is out of range. The good news is the triglycerides and HDL are very good if you listen to the banana boy from down under. They match his numbers which he claims are at rock star status. This at least brings the ch/hdl ratio to 3.4 and within the acceptable ratio range. All other items fall essentially dead middle of the reference ranges. I’m concerned about the LDL but not enough to stop the diet. The plan is to stick with it until the weight loss levels off. Then I’ll drop the fat and try a more balanced approach like the wife is using to hold off the weight gain.
Friday I made a re-do of the 200 mile plus test ride under Ketosis and this time it was successful. I went 205 miles with no breakfast. I stopped for lunch and ate a grilled chicken with bacon sandwich (no bun) at the 111 mile mark. At this point the temperature had reached 102 while the road surface was well beyond this. The last 95 miles saw fatigue set in but I believe was primarily the heat and not a fueling issue . Two diet cokes and lots of water from this point in. I did cheat and ate about six chunks of pineapple at the 140 marker. They were sooo good! This was a very good ride under the conditions.
The Lab report is in and it isn’t good. The LDL is out of range. The good news is the triglycerides and HDL are very good if you listen to the banana boy from down under. They match his numbers which he claims are at rock star status. This at least brings the ch/hdl ratio to 3.4 and within the acceptable ratio range. All other items fall essentially dead middle of the reference ranges. I’m concerned about the LDL but not enough to stop the diet. The plan is to stick with it until the weight loss levels off. Then I’ll drop the fat and try a more balanced approach like the wife is using to hold off the weight gain.
Friday I made a re-do of the 200 mile plus test ride under Ketosis and this time it was successful. I went 205 miles with no breakfast. I stopped for lunch and ate a grilled chicken with bacon sandwich (no bun) at the 111 mile mark. At this point the temperature had reached 102 while the road surface was well beyond this. The last 95 miles saw fatigue set in but I believe was primarily the heat and not a fueling issue . Two diet cokes and lots of water from this point in. I did cheat and ate about six chunks of pineapple at the 140 marker. They were sooo good! This was a very good ride under the conditions.
