Is the Silvio 2.0 out of Beta Yet?

[pRC]

I'm very interested in a Silvio 2.0, but there have been multiple posts in the forum related to production problems, and I would like to make sure they have been addressed before I consider placing an order.

Have these issues, in fact, been resolved?

Silvio Drive Wheel Removal

Wed, 2013-08-14 08:23 (John Tolhurst)
"I meant for the RD hanger on Vendetta 2.0 and Silvio 2.0 to be a snap fit, so once in it would stay there. But it didn't work out that way and there is unfortunately no opportunity for a grub screw fixing as on Silvio 1.5. A drop of supaglue can be used to fix the hanger to the chainstay."

(BTW, this seems like a significant problem - it would make changing a front tire very fiddly to have to hold the bike frame, the wheel, and the derailleur + chain all at the same time to mount the front wheel!)


Just Ordered a Silvio 2.0 Frame

Fri, 2013-08-09 08:55 (John Tolhurst)
"Do you mean the two 'chainstays'? Yes, we have had some vagueness of hole positions on this run. Thanks for confirming."

Tue, 2013-08-27 16:52 (John Tolhurst)
Ring clamp bolts too long - "Ah ha! The bolt exit hole on yours has been welded over, my original prototype sample, no. Thanks for the picture."

Fri, 2013-08-02 08:12 (John Tolhurst)
"We are very low on Silvio 2.0 stock. There will soon be a two month hiatus of supply. I guess I didn't factor in the people who are upgrading."


Silvio 2.0 Build Questions

Sat, 2013-07-06 12:16 (Lavs)
"Also, for IOW "First Snag" Slider Slot - I awoke this morning ready to finish up a few things then do my maiden shake-down voyage,... but had an email from John T. Relating to the Slider not having the necessary slot,... I had wondered about how the Boom clamp would compress the Slider around the boom,..."

(Slider slot missing, also some sliders had a slot without a stress-relief hole - if this has been fixed, you may want to remove the PDF from the downloads, could cause unnecessary angst about the production quality.)


I don't think any of us expect a small manufacturer to be perfect, we just want you to be responsive when issues are found and you seem engaged in the forums. And there is a lot of information in the forums, but it is not easy or quick to read all of the posts to find the little tidbits that are important.

Cruzbike also has multiple channels for updates -- the product pages, the blogs area, and the forums -- it has to be hard to keep all of them up to date. The teething problems above were all discussed in forums, but there was no clear commitment for resolutions that I could find. I think it would be important to potential customers to express fixes clearly so that they know they are buying an improved version.

Silvio Product Page Specs

Finally, with the change away from component package sales, the Silvio 2.0 product page still seems to be missing some key information for ordering parts needed to fit the Silvio Frameset.

• What is the bottom bracket thread size and shell width for a Silvio 2?
• What is the chain length needed (number of links) for a 'standard build', or if using the 100mm extension, or the 150mm extension? (so, do I need 2 chains?)
• What is the handlebar clamp size (25.4mm? 31.8mm?) if someone wants to fit their own cowhorns or try some other handlebar to a Silvio 2?
• What is the maximum recommended tire size that can be used with Cruzbike 700c rims? What is the inner clearance width of the fork/rear stays?

Please don't take all of this the wrong way, I'm not trying to bang on you guys -- I think you are doing a great job in a difficult market -- It is my hope that you find these suggestions useful.

Respectfully, and looking forward to replacing my Performer High Racer!

/pRC
Raleigh, NC

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi,
I would maintain that

Hi,

I would maintain that your original question as whether or not to classify the Silvio as a "beta" release or not isn't appropriate for small term production.

Given the production sizes, there are always going to be issues and feedback from customers to John and Cruzbike to the frame manufactures. That's the reality of the situation.

I don't have any issue with you asking the particular questions you asked; I would do a similar thing before spending my hard earned money on the bike as well. I just think the phrasing of the question (or, maybe, just the subject line) isn't, well, quite fair.

Cheers,
Charles

 

[Andrew 1973]

Why Not See One in Person?

Hi pRC.

You certainly do not live far from Cruzbike's Lumberton-based headquarters. Why not reach out to Jim and Maria Parker? They would be able to answer your questions and would quite certainly arrange for you to see and try a Silvio in person.

 

[pRC]

It's all in the context

Andrew, I plan to do that -- when I exchanged notes with Maria at the end of the Summer she indicated that they would not have a Silvio 2 for test rides for months. They do have the lower-end models, and that is useful to get an idea of whether I can handle a FWD, but it won't answer fit issues (is the seat really the same angle as my PHR? do I need the 100mm extension?) before I buy something that cannot be returned. I do want to go down and try one of the other models before I place an order, but time is hurtling by!

I could have put all of this into an Email. Maybe I should have put all of this into an Email. I put it in the forum because I think this info is important for other potential customers to find, and to give to feedback so Cruzbike to improve their product pages a bit.

If I'm wrong, please tell me and I will not be offended. I appreciate criticism and suggestions for better alternatives.


Charles, I'm in the software world.

But before I became a user experience professional I spent years as a consulting industrial designer (AKA, product designer) with some 50 products that made it to market, including power tools, appliances, surgical instruments, and board games. So I understand there are difficulties getting all the details right in production.

The Silvio is on the second (or arguably third) iteration. The Silvio 2.0 appears to have many many improvements and to be well-thought-out, so I was surprised to see so many issues popping up with the early builds. I think it is great for a small manufacturer to use customers to help tune a product, but my experience with other industries is that the issues found go into some release notes or touted features (although, I guess "NEW, now the derailleur hanger stays on the bike when you remove the wheel" does not make such a hot marketing message).

There are also difficulties getting all the details right in software.

I work in a small startup company with a lot of talented developers, and they frequently have an internally focused personality. They will listen to a customer issue and nod their heads -- they give the appearance that they will fix a problem. But until you see the feature scheduled, or hear them say 'I will fix that now', you really have no gage for whether something will be done. What I see in the forum from John Tolhurst parallels this, his responses are more along the lines of 'thanks for showing the problem' without closing the loop for future customers on whether it will ever be addressed. Maybe I am too sensitive, maybe I am transferring my experiences wrongly, but as a potential customer I'd like to know how many issues I'm going to have to handle to get the bike working properly, and what sort of customer-centric culture the company has.

/pRC

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi pRC,The bulk of your post

Hi pRC,

The bulk of your post is fine. You are asking whether or not specific issues that have come up have been resolved or not. That's perfectly reasonable.

The fact that you come from software in some sense explains a lot. If there's a bug, you fix it and you're golden. This isn't how things are "labeled" in the small scale manufacturing world.

When you only sell 100 frames (or whatever they sell), you order them in relative small batches and you fix the issues you can. You can't just cut another release. The frames are what cost the money and throwing them away is a big loss (I'm sure this still happens, but it's a loss).

This isn't the same when you have a manufacture pumping out thousands of frames. 10s of frames here, 10s of frames there, who cares. But no recumbent manufacture lives in that space.

And I'll point out it's because the Silvio 2 is so different than the Silvio 1.X that it is more likely to have these issues. The more you change, the more that can go wrong. Personally, I'd rather see John doing what he does and coming up with new designs and have the small issues that he has. (It's easy for me to say this because I'm not buying a Silvio anytime soon so you should weigh this comment appropriately.)

If you want a recumbent that has no issues, you'll need to finance the building of it yourself (and it (1) this won't come cheap and (2) you'll never get there). If you want to know whether the issues that have come to light have been fixed, that's a very different (and reasonable) question. I do believe your doing the latter, but I'm explaining why I don't like the subject line of the thread (is it, hopefully wrongly, suggests the former).

If you want to know what kind of customer centric culture the company has, then read the forums. I think it's obvious.

And here's a very big clue:

Notice that they have a for-sale section. Every time somebody buys a used bike, that's a loss of a potential sale of a new bike. So is it a good business move? If the company's goal is to make as much money as possible right now, then no, it's not. If the company's goal is to spread a vision and make as many people as possible happy with their product, then I think it's absolutely the right move.

Cheers,
Charles

 

[trplay]

I'll give it a go

Question on Drive wheel removal: Yes its "Fiddly" but a non-problem. Just so happens I had a front flat last night. Everything popped off and popped on. If this causes one a problem an option is to always ride with a knowledgeable bike rider and let them change the tire.

Chainstay : No problems

Ring Clamp bolts: Mine were fine, was fixed for me.

slider slot: Fixed

More to come.

 

[Tuloose]

I am glad you are bringing

I am glad you are bringing these glitches up for discussion pRC.
I have already mentioned incomplete or vague assembly instructions.
When I received my 2.0 there weren't even instructions yet available for this model.

Yes, I can already see that changing a front tire flat out on the road could be especially problematic.
I have had one flat already on the front and even though I had the bike supported in my work stand it took me 10 or 15 minutes of struggle to get it back in place. My main problem was with the unattached derailleur hanger.

My other area of irritation has been with the head rest clamps.
These are such a poor design and I know many other owners have had their share of problems with them.
One person took his 2.0 to a bike shop for assembly and the mechanic couldn't figure out the clamps and just left them off.
Just the simple act of moving the head rest becomes a very involved and frustrating operation.
When I finally get the fiddly little clamps in place and screw them down the screw bottoms out before tightening is achieved.
I have inserted wood wedges under the screws but the wood just splits.
The last time I adjusted the headrest I ended up by wrapping electrical tape around the head rest tubing to take up the excess slack in the assembly (this was in addition to the little pieces of rubber tubing that come supplied).
In my opinion the head rest was not ready for prime time.

Now, before all the defenses for the Silvio start coming in let me say that I love this bike.
It is by far the fastest recumbent I have ever owned.
The design is not without it's inherent problems - front wheel slippage on steep, gravely slopes is certainly a drawback - but the power & efficiency generated by the FWD, MBB assembly, perfected by John Tolhurst, is a huge step forward in bicycle technology.
My only regret is that I waited so long before trying a Cruzbike.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Now, before all the defenses

Now, before all the defenses for the Silvio start coming in let me say that I love this bike.

As far as I'm concerned, the content of the original post was good. It does make sense to talk about what problems there still are and find out as much as possible what you are really in for.

As I think is very often demonstrated on this forum, you can love your bike and still have problems with it.

 

[trplay]

more

What is the bottom bracket thread size and shell width for a Silvio 2? SRAM 68mm GXP works.
What is the chain length needed (number of links) for a 'standard build', or if using the 100mm extension, or the 150mm extension? (so, do I need 2 chains?) "Standard" compact 50x36 or "standard 53x39 ? Either way a standard chain pack runs around 114-116 links and fits my Silvio with either crank. I use 112 links with the 50x36, 11-26 and can switch to the 53x39 without needing to change the number of links.
What is the handlebar clamp size (25.4mm? 31.8mm?) if someone wants to fit their own cowhorns or try some other handlebar to a Silvio 2? Mine measure 31.7mm diameter.
What is the maximum recommended tire size that can be used with Cruzbike 700c rims? What is the inner clearance width of the fork/rear stays? No idea, I use the newer 23mm wide rims and easily fit 25mm conti;s on the bike. Haven't done it but I believe 28 mm will be no problem.

 

[trplay]

Now a question for you

Why did you post these questions on the riders forum instead of the technical support section? Just curious?

 

[trplay]

That front tire change

Tuloose you mention a problem with your deraileur hanger. I pulled the skewer out and dropped the wheel. Then placed the deraileur with hanger on the ground. The forks were placed on the ground to hold up the bike. It simply sat there patiently waiting for me to fix the tire. Reversed the process and everything popped back on?

 

[pRC]

Why this forum?

trplay, thanks for the info.

The point I was trying to make was that bottom bracket specs and chain length should be on the Silvio product page so that a customer can order the right components.

I posted here because this forum is where I found all of the useful discussion on the Silvio. Frankly, I did not even notice that there was a technical discussion area. The updates section at the top of the Forums page is my first stop when I visit the site, and all of the recent activity on the Silvio 2 I can remember has been here.

Not sure why most forums have so many sub-areas anyway since once you get to a certain number of posts you are using search to wade through a lot of this. Many useful things are probably lost in the older pages!


Charles, heh, I think if I "want a recumbent that has no issues" I'd be out of luck! Not because the Silvio is in any way bad, but because even a perfectly designed and assembled bike eventually has maintenance issues and there are no recumbent dealers in Raleigh. Fortunately I was a bike shop rat as a teenager and have had no problem assembling and customizing the Performer High Racer I now ride, including some significant seat re-positioning to the get a 50/50 weight distribution through custom machined mounts. I actually enjoy a good mechanical problem.

/pRC

 

[counterpoint]

max tire size: 28mm wide

I was told 28mm wide 700c tires will fit. Whether knobby 28mm cross tires will fit is something I don't know.

Personally I got 25mm Conti Gatorskin Sprinter tubulars installed -- on the wheels, that is. The frame itself hasn't been shipped yet.

 

[counterpoint]

new shipment will tell

As I mentioned above, the new shipment isn't out yet. Was told mid November (but it might refer to the time the frames are manufactured and then have to be readied for shipping).
So: once those framesets reach the users and are built up we'll see where we're at.

I must agree with the original poster that a clear list of what is included and what needs to be bought at what sizes is necessary (and efficient). For instance the bottom bracket is a somewhat obscure part. I for one didn't even know what an "external bottom bracket" is and had to google it. Not until I saw Ivan's excellent photos did I even comprehend how the BB is central to the design of a Silvio.

Many prospective buyers are drawn here by Maria's impressive speed records and owners reporting they no longer get dropped on hills by DF riders. Since the Cruzbike concept is new it would help to explain it perfectly and not let that work be done in the forum.

 

[pRC]

Real tire question - fatter 650b rando setup

If I fit a pair of 650b rims using disc brakes, will I have enough clearance for 38mm tires? For 42mm tires?

It's clear from the posts in the forum that the Silvio has very limited clearances for oversized tires (or for fenders).

Yes, I understand the Silvio has suspension so I can use weight-weenie roadie gear, but I like the idea of a 'Rando' recumbent for comfort and speed, and since I'm buying an expensive frame that cannot be returned I'd like to have alternatives that will suit my riding style.

Yes, yes, John Tolhurst, I fear my opinion is horribly misguided, but like the 559x38 Panaracer tires on my RWD recumbent for my 17 mile commute on paved and gravel roads -- I find wider tires more stable and comfortable and, gasp, faster. I have measured the effects over rough chip-seal roads with a range of narrow and wide tires, and through multiple trials wider tires are faster for me. I haven't tried anything over 38mm so far, but the effects got my attention.

I'm now in the process of mounting a pair of Stans Crest MTB disc 650b wheels (in the garage) and Pari-moto 584x38 tires (still in route), and my dream is that this combination will work even better on the PHR and can be transplanted to the Silvio 2.0.

/pRC

 

[trplay]

looking for a Rando bike?

If you are looking for a true rando bike then you have the wrong bike. The Silvio is designed to be a fast road bike. IMO it is way down on the list for randonneuring use.

 

[Tuloose]

[ Tuloose you mention a

[ Tuloose you mention a problem with your deraileur hanger. I pulled the skewer out and dropped the wheel. Then placed the deraileur with hanger on the ground. The forks were placed on the ground to hold up the bike. It simply sat there patiently waiting for me to fix the tire. Reversed the process and everything popped back on? ]

That's funny. The other advice I have seen on dealing with fixing a front wheel flat all say to flip the bike upside down.

It's reassuring to know the problem may be with me and I hope to improve my tire changing skills on the Silvio but I think thou dost protest a little too much.

[ Question on Drive wheel removal: Yes its "Fiddly" but a non-problem. Just so happens I had a front flat last night. Everything popped off and popped on. If this causes one a problem an option is to always ride with a knowledgeable bike rider and let them change the tire. ]

First of all, having someone along who knows how to change a tire will not help much with a Silvio.
The skewer must be pulled all the way out for one thing.
On my bike the derailleur hanger fell down, flipped over and twisted the chain.
Once I got that straightened out I had to try and keep the hanger in place in it's cutout while wrapping the chain around the cog and simultaneously pulling the wheel into the dropouts while spreading the carbon fiber stays.
You might have found it easy but I did not.
Your remark sounds just a little condescending - I already know how to change a tire and have done so many, many times over my lifetime (I'm 68).

 

[Jeremy S]

Bruce, when your headrest

Bruce, when your headrest clamp bolt "bottoms out", is the clamp fully spread? If not, have you considered using a longer bolt? (My headrest clamp came installed upside down, after an e-mail consultation I flipped it around and have not had any issues with it.)

As for Randolph's original post, not really sure what to say... As someone who ordered from the first Silvio 2.0 production run, I expected issues, and there were issues. None of them really impacts the finished bike. A more complete and up-to-date website would be nice but the Cruzbike staff seems to be severely time constrained, from what John has said.

 

[trplay]

I give up

Your remark sounds just a little condescending: ???????????????????

 

[Tuloose]

Tried that

Thanks Jeremy,
Yes I tried a longer bolt.
In fact I remember writing about that little adventure much earlier.
It did not work out for various reasons. (bolts I found were too long and not threaded all the way to the head. They were hardened and extremely difficult to cut and thread. I finally gave up on them.)
And why shouldn't we get the correct size right off the bat? But maybe that's a subject for another topic?
And yes, my clamps were shipped upside down and that was the initial problem.
It's in place now but I won't be adjusting it again anytime soon.