Ol'Yellow get a New Facelift after 11.6K Miles

[RojoRacing]

Thanks guys.

Bob, I did the re-bleed. Seemed to give a little more clearance which helped with the drag problem. But the pads to rotor alignment persists and re-viewing SS's first video at the top of the threads seems to make sense with my problem. I'm thinking I'm just not getting the pads parallel to the rotors. Something is amiss either with tabs or calipers. With the levers pulled tight and 5mm caliper bolts slightly loose, once I start the tightening process with the 5mm hex wrench, the bolt moves the caliper and disc with it causing the alignment to fault. I've even tried holding the caliper with my third hand after pulling the brake lever, but it still moves.I've read others having this happen, but can't seem to find out why it's happening. I've ordered the Birzman Clam Disc Brake Gap Tool from Universal Cycles as shown in SS's first video. When on a quick ride today after making the last adjustments to find the noise and popping in the front ends continues at the end of the stop, which leads me to believe the pads and rotor is not properly aligned.

you're using washers on the bolts correct?

 

[Rick Youngblood]

you're using washers on the bolts correct?

Yes, washers on bolts.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I just notice you are using your mount black brackets the reverse of how I did.
I have the offset one on the front and the equal sided one on the back.

Bob, do you have a photo to share.

 

[super slim]

Have you lubricated between the bolt head and washer and washer and the bracket, so the washer does not rotate when the bolt is!

Also as the bolt might be a 316 SS, then the washer HAS to be 304, or 321 so its hardness is different to the 316 SS bolt, otherwise galling can occur and the parts are locked together!

Could you take a photo of the rear brake showing the gap between the pads and the disk?

Could you take a photo of the rear brake pad, to check that the whole pad is worn by contact with the disk.

Using a vernier caliper, can you measure the brake pad thickness in the 4 corners to see if there is any variation?

Could you add 1.6 mm thick washers to both sides of the rear wheel hub, so the brake bolts are more centered in the bracket slot!

 

[ratz]

Bob, do you have a photo to share.

I think I can crawl into storage area with a camera.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Blue sky's today. This is a far cry from the previous days, weeks, months. Front brake is still making the noise.

Anyway, working on the front caliper problem first. I may be totally wrong, and it is only my speculation, but it seems like the brake caliper is being pushed too far left, and that the caliper bracket is very close to the rotor, and the taps or not parallel on bot horizontal and vertical planes to the rotor disc. I don't know if this makes any difference, or what the tolerances are, as I've never come across having so much difficulty in setting up disc brakes before. The top part of the black bracket is very close to the rotor, about 1mm from the rotor disc, I can not get a 1.5mm hex wrench to fit between the rotor and bracket. The bottom part of the bracket has just under 2mm clearance from the rotor.

The mounting bolts are supplied with built-in washers, un-removable from the bolt.

 

[ratz]

Did you try using the black mounting bracket from the rear wheel on the front brake?

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Did you try using the black mounting bracket from the rear wheel on the front brake?

The bracket currently on the back will not let the caliper clear the rotor if placed on the front.

What's odd, is the one on the back is marked F160 and R140 - came with the 140mm rotor. I have a 140mm rotor in the rear, and 160mm rotor upfront. The one I had in the front is marked F180 and R160, but this one still seems to not give enough clearance, causing the pads to not engage the top portion on the rotor, in other words it was riding too low on the rotor. So I'm trying the 185, to see if it has better contact. I'm totally bewildered as to why the bracket marked F160 does not fit, and why 185 possibly does??!!??!!

I'm now trying a different bracket to see if it works, it's a 185mm spare I had mounted to a bb7 road caliper. I can't remember, but I believe I used it on the Silvio way back when, on the front with a 160mm rotor. Today is our last day for sunshine before we get emerged into rain once again, so I can test it on the road.

 

[Bill K]

2) The caliper (both front and rear) will not center itself on the rotor properly without dragging the pad(s) on the rotor. Following the instructions by simply pulling the brake lever with the bolts slightly loose will not do. There is something odd about this that I'm unable to put into words. I've also tried eyeballing it, this is the only way I can eliminates drag to a degree so the wheels spin ALMOST freely, but not happy.

I had the same issue with the HY/RD calipers on my V20.
A slight variance of this sequence worked for me to prevent the pads from scraping the rotor:
With the caliper bolts slightly loose, lightly (very lightly) squeeze the brake handle.
Lightly tighten the caliper bolts so they are barely snug, just enough to hold them in place.
Let go of the brake handle.
Carefully tighten the caliper bolts, just a little bit at a time until you reach the desired tightness.
Cross your fingers (optional) then spin the wheel.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Cross your fingers (optional)

I have to disagree. Crossing your fingers is never optional.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Update:

I tried Avid 185mm tab bracket - seems to be a better fit, but no joy, still popping noise. So I replaced the existing front caliper with the rear caliper...thinking maybe the front is faulty. Nope, the noise is still there.

Now, I'm just plain frustrated and using my extended childish vocabulary...that didn't work either.

So now I removed the TRP from the front, using the existing 185 bracket and 160mm rotor, but installed my old Avid bb7 road caliper...took all of 10 minutes to install and center...bam, no popping noise, smooth modulation. What the fudge!!! The bb7 has theses tiny rocker washers that help with what I believe unparallel tabs. I suppose/speculate/assume this is why the bb7 aligned and the TRP did not...please correct me if I'm wrong. Why does TRP not have rocker washers? Or is the alignment built into caliper piston mech? I'm not a huge fan of Avid bb7's and now not a fan of TRP, but want to be because 1. They look cool, 2. They cost me a lot of money.

 

[ratz]

Update:

I tried Avid 185mm tab bracket - seems to be a better fit, but no joy, still popping noise. So I replaced the existing front caliper with the rear caliper...thinking maybe the front is faulty. Nope, the noise is still there.

Now, I'm just plain frustrated and using my extended childish vocabulary...that didn't work either.

So now I removed the TRP from the front, using the existing 185 bracket and 160mm rotor, but installed my old Avid bb7 road caliper...took all of 10 minutes to install and center...bam, no popping noise, smooth modulation. What the fudge!!! The bb7 has theses tiny rocker washers that help with what I believe unparallel tabs. I suppose/speculate/assume this is why the bb7 aligned and the TRP did not...please correct me if I'm wrong. Why does TRP not have rocker washers? Or is the alignment built into caliper piston mech? I'm not a huge fan of Avid bb7's and now not a fan of TRP, but want to be because 1. They look cool, 2. They cost me a lot of money.

Rocker washers are not unique to Avid; you can use them with the TRP brakes and you can buy them separately Did you try that?

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Rocker washers are not unique to Avid; you can use them with the TRP brakes and you can buy them separately Did you try that?

Not yet, but I'm going too.

 

[super slim]

The bracket currently on the back will not let the caliper clear the rotor if placed on the front.

What's odd, is the one on the back is marked F160 and R140 - came with the 140mm rotor. I have a 140mm rotor in the rear, and 160mm rotor upfront. The one I had in the front is marked F180 and R160, but this one still seems to not give enough clearance, causing the pads to not engage the top portion on the rotor, in other words it was riding too low on the rotor. So I'm trying the 185, to see if it has better contact. I'm totally bewildered as to why the bracket marked F160 does not fit, and why 185 possibly does??!!??!!

I'm now trying a different bracket to see if it works, it's a 185mm spare I had mounted to a bb7 road caliper. I can't remember, but I believe I used it on the Silvio way back when, on the front with a 160mm rotor. Today is our last day for sunshine before we get emerged into rain once again, so I can test it on the road.

Because the drive is on the front fork, AND Cruzbike Front disk brake welded brackets are the same height as the Cruzbike Rear, but slightly off the rear IS standard, you need to use an IS adapter for the next size up, ie a F203 for a 185 front disc (drive wheel), or a F185 IS adapter for a 160 mm front disc and a F160/R140 (0 mm rise IS) for the rear (non drive) 140 mm disk.

Use a torch and check that the brake pads are JUST fully engaged on the disk.
On the Spyre this is when the radial clearance of the disk outer edge to each end of the Spyre body disk slot is approx. 2.5 mm.






http://www.dirtfreak.co.jp/cycle/sram/service/avid/avid_technical_specifications_my13_updates.pdf

From page 5 of the Avid Tech manual, the wheel side of the front weld lug bracket should be 4 +-0.1 mm outside the fork inside edge.
From Page 11 of the Avid Tech manual, the disk flange should be 10.5 mm from the FRONT Non drive hub end.

http://my-sport.spb.ru/manual_1/2004 disc fit info.pdf
From Page 2 of Avid Disk fit, the disk flange should be 10.16 mm from the FRONT hub end, and 15.27 mm from the REAR DRIVE hub end.

Measuring various IS mount brackets for 140 to 203 mm disks, from different suppliers, the three thicknesses were 10.0 mm, 10.5 mm, and 11.0 mm, so no standard.

So the CRUZBIKE DRIVE FRONT welded lug should be 4 -(15.27-10.16) 5.1 = 1.1 mm inside edge past the fork inside edge, compared to a DF bike of 4 mm outside.
So the inside edge of the IS bracket could be from 1.1+10 = 11.1 mm to 12.1 mm inside the fork inside edge
So the outside edge of a 1.8 mm thick disk should be (15.27-1.8 = 13.47 mm from the fork inside edge.
This gives a clearance of 2.4 mm to 1.4 mm, depending on the IS bracket, AND if the welded lug bracket is in the correct position of 1.1 mm inside the fork inside edge!

So the CRUZBIKE NON-DRIVE REAR welded lug should be 4 mm outside the fork inside edge (same as a DF Front!)

I checked my Quest V1.0 and it is 3.1 mm, with a 10.5 mm IS bracket giving me a 1.5 mm clearance with a 1.95 mm thick disk, and a 9.7 mm disk flange to hub edge, so ALL dimensions are different to the Standard!

From the two Avid documents the Hub edge to disk edge varies from 10.5 mm to 10.16 mm, and the measured IS bracket thickness varied by 1.0 mm, means that the IS bracket slots need to be WIDE to allow for these variations!

With all these variations to a standard, I can not see quick change disk braked wheels used in the Tour de France!!!!

The B7s have the two pairs of 5.2 mm high spherical washers per bolt, to align the whole body, but ALL other Disk brake applicators have no spherical aligning washers for the body, and rely on the weld disk bracket to be vertical.

The BB7 has a pivoting ball support for the alignment of the moving brake pad off vertical, which is why they are much wider than the TRP Spyre, but it is needed as the disk is flexed inwards at a slight angle off vertical, to meet the fixed inner brake pad(That has no angular aligning ball) , as the outer pad applies force to the disk!

The ONE ball supports allow the moving pad to follow the bending disk!
It is VERY important to keep the fixed brake pad as close to the disk as possible, so the disk does not have to bend as much before it hits the fixed disk, so it wears evenly.

The TRP Spyre has no central ball support for the brake pad alignment, as BOTH pads move towards the disk, so no deflection of the disk, and the TRP HY-RD with two hydraulic cylinders would definitely NOT have a pad alignment system, if the same as car disk brakes!

So BB7 brakes are VERY Tolerant of the welded bracket misalignment, but the penalty is extra weight and width, and only having one moving pad, so a lot more readjustments are required to keep the brake pads wear even!

On my Quest V1.0 very early model, the original front Tekro Aquila MTB mech one side application disk brakes were perfect, but the rear were spongy, so I changed them to BB7 MTB brakes(34 mm cable movement) and both were great, and when I changed to drop bars and road shifters, I changed to BB7-Road brakes (21 mm cable movement), and still very good braking, but with lots of adjustments required, and they Howled like a Banshee, if it rained once in a Blue Moon!

I installed TRP Spyre doable acting disk brakes to the Quest and the front was great as usual, but the rear mushy, so I added the Avid spherical washers to improve the alignment, but it also lifted the pads up 5.2 mm, so 3 mm of the brake pads were not contacting the disk, and a lip slowly grew and the pad lip started rubbing on the outside edge of the disc.
I then filed off the lips and filed the welded disk bracket vertical, and now good rear brakes.

Another option would be to file (Or mill) off 3.0 mm to 5.2 mm off the height of the rear 140 mm (0 mm rise) IS adapter bracket, so the TRP pads are JUST fully rubbed by the disk.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Because the drive is on the front fork, you need to use an adapter for the next size up, ie a F203 for a 185 front disc (drive wheel), and a R140 (0 mm rise) for the rear 140 mm disk.

Use a torch and check that the pads are JUST fully engaged on the disk.
DON'T use the Avid spherical washers on any other disk applicator, as the pads will only be 2/3rds on the disk and cause problems!
Guess how I found out?

http://www.dirtfreak.co.jp/cycle/sram/service/avid/avid_technical_specifications_my13_updates.pdf

From page 5 of the Avid Tech manual, the wheel side of the front weld lug bracket should be 4 +-0.1 mm outside the fork inside edge.
From Page 11 of the Avid Tech manual, the disk flange should be 10.5 mm from the FRONT Non drive hub end.

http://my-sport.spb.ru/manual_1/2004 disc fit info.pdf
From Page 2 of Avid Disk fit, the disk flange should be 10.16 mm from the FRONT hub end, and 15.27 mm from the REAR DRIVE hub end.

Measuring various IS mount brackets for 140 to 203 mm disks, from different suppliers, the three thicknesses were 10.0 mm, 10.5 mm, and 11.0 mm, so no standard.

So the CRUZBIKE DRIVE FRONT welded lug should be 4 -(15.27-10.16) 5.1 = 1.1 mm inside edge past the fork inside edge, compared to a DF bike of 4 mm outside.
So the inside edge of the IS bracket could be from 1.1+10 = 11.1 mm to 12.1 mm inside the fork inside edge
So the outside edge of a 1.8 mm thick disk should be (15.27-1.8 = 13.47 mm from the fork inside edge.
This gives a clearance of 2.4 mm to 1.4 mm, depending on the IS bracket, AND if the welded lug bracket is in the correct position of 1.1 mm inside the fork inside edge!

So the CRUZBIKE NON-DRIVE REAR welded lug should be 4 mm outside the fork inside edge (same as a DF Front!)
I checked my Quest V1.0 and it is 3.1 mm, with a 10.5 mm IS bracket giving me a 1.5 mm clearance with a 1.95 mm thick disk, and a 9.7 mm disk flange to hub edge, so ALL dimensions are different to the Standard!

From the two Avid documents the Hub edge to disk edge varies from 10.5 mm to 10.16 mm, and the measured IS bracket thickness varied by 1.0 mm, means that the IS bracket slots need to be WIDE to allow for these variations!

With all these variations to a standard, I can not see quick change disk braked wheels used in the Tour de France!!!!

The B7s have the spherical washers to align the whole body which like ALL other Disk brake applicators have no spherical aligning washers for the body.

The BB7 has a pivoting ball support for the alignment of the brake pads, which is why they are much wider than the TRP Spyre, but it is needed as the disk if flexed inwards at an slight angle to meet the fixed inner brake pad, as the outer pad applies force to the disk!

The TRP Spyre has no central ball support for the brake pad alignment, as BOTH pads move towards the disk, so no deflection of the disk, and the TRP HY-RD with two hydraulic cylinders would definitely NOT have a pad centering system if the same as car disk brakes!

So BB7 brakes are VERY Tolerant of the welded bracket misalignment, but the penalty is extra weight and width, and only having one moving pad, so a lot more readjustments are required to keep the brake pads wear even!

On my Quest V1.0 very early model, the original front Tekro Aquila MTB mech one side application disk brakes were perfect, but the rear were spongy, so I changed them to BB7 MTB brakes(34 mm cable movement) and both were great, and when I changed to drop bars and road shifters, I changed to BB7-Road brakes (21 mm cable movement), and still very good braking, with lots of adjustments and Howling like a Banshee, if it rained once in a Blue Moon!

I installed TRP Spyre doable acting disk brakes to the Quest and the front was great as usual, but the rear mushy, so I added the Avid spherical washers to improve the alignment, but it also lifted the pads up 5.2 mm, so 4 mm of the brake pads were not contacting the disk, and a lip slowly grew and the pad lip started rubbing on the outside edge of the disc.
I then filed off the lips and filed the welded disk bracket vertical, and now good rear brakes.

Another option would be to file (Or mill) off 3.0 mm to 5.2 mm off the height of the rear 140 mm IS bracket, so the TRP pads are JUST fully rubbed by the disk.

SS, thanks for the extensive write up. In my recent frustrations it all makes sense to me now. I hope to get back onto working out a solution to fit the TRP to my V. I understand needing mill off height from the top of rear bracket to compensate for the Avid spherical washers. Thanks. I'm headed to the oral surgeon to have four wisdom teeth extracted today, so it maybe a few days or more before I get back to it.

 

[super slim]

Four Wisdom teeth at once is a big step!
Will you be under a general anesthetic for that?

You might have to talk to Charles a bit to regain your wisdom?!

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Four Wisdom teeth at once is a big step!
Will you be under a general anesthetic for that?

You might have to talk to Charles a bit to regain your wisdom?!

Yeah, 4 wisdom plus one additional tooth that was cracked down the middle after a root canal, so five altogether at one time. Yes I will be under, but not looking forward to waking up.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Yeah, 4 wisdom plus one additional tooth that was cracked down the middle after a root canal, so five altogether at one time. Yes I will be under, but not looking forward to waking up.

When I had my wisdom teeth taken out, I was waking up from the anesthesia and the dentist tried to tell me that a single 800 mg pills of ibuprofen where the same as two 400 mg pills of ibuprofen. What I understood was take two.

I had no pain.

 

[super slim]

https://www.npmjs.com/package/makerjs-disc-brake-mount-is

Front DF IS brake mount 87 mm from axle to furthest bolt, 49 mm to the closest bolt = 38 mm difference
Rear IS brake mount 78 mm from axle to furthest bolt, 40 mm to the closest bolt = 38 mm difference

On a DF bike the front Disk brake mount is 11 mm higher AND at a different angle, so that the same IS brake adapter can be used on a Rear 140 mm disk OR a front 160 mm disk, and are marked A-F160/R140, OR 0 mm IS.

A A-F180/R160, OR 20 mm IS would be used on a DF 180 mm Front disk, OR a 160 mm rear disk

On my Quest, the front AND rear welded disk bracket location are the SAME, at 76 mm distance from the axle to the furthest bolt, and 36 mm to the closest bolt = 40 mm difference, so different to the DF IS standards, but close to the Rear IS standard.
This could be why a F185 IS adapter (instead of the expected F180/R160) is required for a 160 mm front disk, and a F160/R140 (0 mm IS) adapter for the 140 mm Rear disk.


I have scribed 3.0 mm lines on both the IS adapters, and the 20 mm IS(F180/R140) can easily have 3 mm to 5.2 mm filed off its height, so Avid spherical washer can be used, but the 0 mm IS (F160/R140) IS adapter for a 140 mm rear disk, could not have 2 mm removed off its height.

If reluctant to file the welded bracket vertical, then the 0 mm IS adapter could be bolted to the frame, then frame clamped to a bike stand so the top surfaces of the IS adapters are horizontal, and the frame is vertical.
Then using a bubble level as a check, file the IS top surfaces horizontal,in BOTH directions, fit the brake applicator, with two spherical washers ABOVE the brake applicator to allow for misalignment, and try a spare disk clamped to the applicator using the brake cable adjustment, and check if the disk is vertical with a bubble level. If not try again!

IS adapters are cheap, Bike frames are NOT!!!

 

[ratz]

Now when you get this all distilled make sure you make the short and easy to understand summary. I'm following allow but barely.