Paris-Brest-Paris 2023?

[Robert Holler]

You all who can tackle these types of events are legends and inspiration!!

 

[ed72]

@ed72 I’ve been thinking about this, and I wonder if a bent attempting a CM time would be better served by setting off with the 90 hour specialty group instead of the 84? Seems counterintuitive at first, but they set off right after the 80 hour group, and if one made good time, they could catch some of the slower 80 groups to draft. It would essentially cut out the no man’s land problem.

You would quickly catch many 80H groups and would also have the benefit of the cycle of winds coming off the coast. Also, to and from Brest on Monday, you would have had much cooler temperatures. So, yes. CM in my opinion would not be as hard in the 80H vs 84H. I was going to warn you to be patient with the clogged up roads in the F start but our buddy with the velo from Martha's told me you were in the 84H. The other problem with it is you run into the Loudeac mess twice whereas in the F or 80H start, it is just on the return because most 8-H riders would make Brest monday afternoon or evening. I made the bridge in 22H and chatted with an older rider getting to the control just under 23H and on my bent, I got there 30H with sleep stops in Fougeres and Loudeac w/o busting myself. I never really had problems with the bulge on the F group on my bent but I was not trying for CM also and might have been more chill than if trying for a time. I did thr 84H start once, don't like it

 

[ed72]

Hacko Epstein in F111 velomobile passed us right at about 100 miles, we were just over 5 hours total including the stop in Mortagne. I thought a truck was passing. We were doing 35km/h and he must have been doing 50-55 in what I think was a Bulk. 100 miles in 4 hours with three or four decent climbs, about 60-65 feet per mile total at that point. Scarily impressive. I just compared, my 2023 times for the first 300km were identical to 2015 when I did CM. Exact to the minute. That is sick. For an old man. LOL

 

[JerseyJim]

• Is it even possible on a Cruzbike. Tor and others have proved that it is… I have to see if Andy and Jim from NJ finished.

Jim from NJ here. I didn't finish. You got much further than me. I struggled with sleep deprivation and pretty much stayed on the bubble with closing times, trying to keep my effort within my endurance zone. When I had a minor but rather lengthy (at least it felt that way) mechanical on the way into Loudeac, the timing just didn't work out to continue. I regret nothing. It was a fantastic experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything. The spirit of the French people in the towns and villages were the highlight and I was truly touched by their generosity.

I hear you on questioning your mount, but that always leads to a "greener grass" spiral. I rode a T50 and when I saw your setup I wished I was riding your bike. I'm sure there was a V20 somewhere in the special bikes group too. Whenever I start to blame my gear I have to get brutally honest with myself and ask if my strength and performance is optimized. The answer is usually that I can be in better shape. If that's the case then I'm not getting the most out of my bike. It's not my bike's fault.

That said, there are gains to be made with better gear. I don't think there's anything you can't do in ultracycling on an S or V series Cruzbike. That's evidenced by Maria, Jim P and Larry's records in endurance events (others too). I think there are limits to the T and Q series, mainly due to aero considerations. You've got the right mount for the task.

Like you, I've also asked myself the question (among others) if I'm cut out for the grand randonnee of 1000+ km. I don't have an answer yet. It's a great challenge, no question about that. It's also tough to put yourself through the lows both physically and psychologically. I don't think I'd want to do it on a regular basis.

I'm still processing all that I experienced and learned during PBP but found your impressions to be insightful and some to be similar to what I've been thinking about. Overall, be glad and take heart that you qualified for and participated in something that the majority of the population wouldn't dream of trying.

 

[CruzinCambridge]

Jim, Thanks for the words of encouragement and the tough love on the "it's not the bike..." I'm in my best shape ever... on Saturday I was riding my DF bike 8 miles to the start of a local 30 mile ride and was pointedly trying not to go hard and I still PR'd on the steepest hill within 15 miles. But there's a difference between being in my best shape and being prepared for PBP. To Derek's point, I had trained 3,500 miles and 5-7 hours a week, but to do PBP I need to be at more like 7,000 miles and 10 hours a week. With the Cruzbike, the lack of training for me translates to weaving up hills when fatigued. I hit this point in the 200K when I didn't have the right gearing and at about hour 18 on the 400K... and I should feel pretty good that I didn't hit this point till hour 45 on PBP. On a DF bike, I don't think fatigue translates as directly into weaving and danger. Even when toasted I can crawl my way up a hill. But I only have 2 years and maybe 4,000 miles on my Cruzbike. Will I feel more confident with more miles and better fitness? Time will tell... if I choose to test it. Regardless, this is a tradeoff for the issues that are sure to crop up on a DF bike after 45 hours. I've done back-to-back 100 mile days on a DF but never more than 200K/10 hours at a stretch... and that was pretty debilitating. So, we'll see. I have to remind myself that this time last year I did my first ride longer than 300K and wasn't sure I'd be able to do it. This weekend's 300K has been postponed due to Hurricaine Lee, and I'm not sure if I can make the following weekend, but I saw the NJR has put down its 2024 schedule. I'm going to hold off a month or two before I start making reservations at the Holiday Inn in Parsippany. Meanwhile, there hasn't been a single civilian... or serious rider for that matter... that I've told I only did 435 miles in 45 hours who hasn't been amazed. And more importantly, I had a great time.

 

[CruzinCambridge]

Separate, but related issue. Gripping the bars for over 12 hours, I came down with a case of trigger finger (ring finger, left hand worse than right). It's starting to dissipate now, 3 weeks later, but my grip strength is off and painful. I had been putting off experimenting with my bars/hand position not wanting to change what was basically working... but now have some freedom to experiment. Has anybody had this issue and how have they found relief?
- I've double wrapped the bars... and am thinking of triple wrapping, or putting a wedge around the bar ends to make a more oval grip surface.
- I have a set of cow chipper bars that I was going to try, which would bring my hands in and down a little bit, which I think might help, though this would involve sawing the bars.
- I'm also wondering whether a curved slider, bringing the bars lower down into my lap would reduce my reach and reduce the strain on my hands.
Any thoughts?

 

[JerseyJim]

Separate, but related issue. Gripping the bars for over 12 hours, I came down with a case of trigger finger (ring finger, left hand worse than right). It's starting to dissipate now, 3 weeks later, but my grip strength is off and painful. I had been putting off experimenting with my bars/hand position not wanting to change what was basically working... but now have some freedom to experiment. Has anybody had this issue and how have they found relief?
- I've double wrapped the bars... and am thinking of triple wrapping, or putting a wedge around the bar ends to make a more oval grip surface.
- I have a set of cow chipper bars that I was going to try, which would bring my hands in and down a little bit, which I think might help, though this would involve sawing the bars.
- I'm also wondering whether a curved slider, bringing the bars lower down into my lap would reduce my reach and reduce the strain on my hands.
Any thoughts?

When I first started riding a Cruzbike I had some hand/wrist numbness/tingling issues during long distance rides. I don't suffer from that anymore. I didn't change my arm or handlebar position, however, I made a conscious effort not to grip the bars too much and to stabilize my pedaling by pushing on the bars. When I wanted to sprint or do a hard effort I pulled, but for the most part I would rest my hands on the bars and keep them as relaxed as possible, then used slight pushing pressure to keep pedaling stable.

For shifting, I started with trigger shifters, since my setup is a flat bar, and later switched to a universal electronic shifter (Xshifter). With the trigger shifters I had it was mostly my thumb doing the work and the main force was when the cable was being pulled to a lower gear. In the other direction there was very little force as the spring on the mech was doing the work. With the electronic shifting, the buttons have negligible force.

All that is to say if you're happy with your hand/arm position, try loosening up your grip on the controls and if you can adjust your shifters to have less force (either by making the cable movement easier or more direct, or switching to electronic shifting), that may solve your issue with the sore fingers.

If you're not happy with your hand position, start by making your bars conform to the position where your hands feel most natural and un-stressed, then adjust your brake/shift levers around that position. Make the bike fit around your body, never vise versa. Chop up that handlebar if you need to get rid of pressure points. Handlebars are cheaper than doctor's appointments.

My 2 cents

Jim

 

[Derek]

I use the cow chipper and love it. I know a guy who had hand issues and he ditched the tape and used ergo grips instead. That said, what JJ said is the easiest fix: conscious relaxation. The second suggestion for extremely long rides: varying where you grip throughout the ride. Hang in the drops most of the time, but sometimes go on the brifters, sometimes on the curve before the brifters, sometimes narrow grip the flats, narrow grip one flat and one drop, switch, one flat one brifters, switch, one brifter one drop, switch. I am currently practicing riding one handed w the other hand laying across my stomach. I’m doing this for aero purposes but the same ergonomic benefits of variation should apply.

 

[ratz]

Adding to what Derek said based on that photo:

1. Push your head rest back about 15mm
2. Push your entire boom forward until you can make your legs hit the handlebars when you try, but it doesn't happen when pedaling normally. When you get this right, you'll know it.

If that doesn't work, you need some bars with more reach and a little less flare.

In the meantime, try pushing on the bars instead of pulling for a while. That will help you learn to relax.

 

[CruzinCambridge]

Thanks @ratz @Derek @JerseyJim!
I know to try to grip light... but going uphill, and especially when my gaze goes to someone passing, I tend to tense up to try to stay in control. Focusing on pushing, keeping an open hand, is a good "mnemonic" to remember not to grip. It works over a 30 mile ride... but can I maintain attention on my grip over longer distances will be the question. Planning a 300K this weekend which will try it out. I wasn't able to get an appointment with a hand doctor till October, so what the hay.

As for mechanical interventions, I already have my boom in as far as it can go. I try to use the brifters, but they're so high up that I'm stretching a little too much... and I don't have much room on the stock bars for other hand positions... and the flats on the stock bars are really close to the stem.

After the 300K I'm going to experiment with the cowchipper bars which have good reach and less flare. I think I'm going to need a shim or two to make it work on the cruzbike. And then if I can get my hands on a curved slider, I may try that also. I'm reasoning that bringing the bars down more into my lap will enable me to use the brifters more comfortably for multiple hand positions. Also bring my hands closer to my body. I also like the idea of using anatomic MTB bar ends on the stock bars. Looks like I have a fall project.

 

[ratz]

As for mechanical interventions, I already have my boom in as far as it can go. I try to use the brifters, but they're so high up that I'm stretching a little too much... and I don't have much room on the stock bars for other hand positions... and the flats on the stock bars are really close to the stem.

Yeah, I was thinking we need to side photos of you on the bike.

My initial thought was:

1. You have a long torso with equal or short legs, so the boom is short
2. Long cranks that look like 170? in the photo, maybe? Forcing boom shorter
3. Boom's all the way in; missed that. ( you can count 2-3 inches off the inside boom to make it go smaller.)
4. Room to spare at the flats (because you need to reach the pedals) which pushes the handlebars into your chest and makes the CB Stock bars too wide up close like that, and then you get the big wrist bends

Cowchipper still keep the hands high (looking at my Silvio which has a pair on them) Check out the whiskey bars https://whiskyparts.co/handlebars/no.7-6f-drop-bar#/ they are a little cheaper.

Start with the handlebars, then that boom length and maybe the cranks in the future; when you get it dialed in you'll know it; my fit was bad for the first 6 months; once I get it; it was like oh man that's soo much better

 

[xtalbike]

This is something I think about a lot since I have chronic tendinitis in my forearms from too much music. I'm actually quite happy with the stock V20c bars which (as you know) are drop bars with not that much drop and not that much flare. I have the hoods mounted so that they form a fairly flat surface with the top of the curved parts of the bar and have the whole system rotated so that surface and also the drops are not far from vertical. I've been taught that having your hand parallel to the side of your body places the least stress on your tendons. This setup lets me maintain that wrist orientation whether I'm on the drops as shown below or have my hands wrapped around the hoods. Whenever I move to the hoods I instantly feel my arms relaxing but I do feel that I have more leverage on the bike when on the drops.

Since we're local you're welcome to come over some time and see how the hand positions on my bike suit you. I've not done the sort of distance that you get up to but I have done a couple of 12 hour days without tendinitis flare-ups...and I can't claim that my arms are relaxed all the time when I ride.

I'll also say that I experimented with the curved slider and was not happy. With the boom at as shallow an angle as I have it the curved slider made it so that I couldn't sit up fully without sliding my butt up the seat a bit. There were also a couple of occasions when I stupidly keeled over for whatever reason and then, with the handlebars so low, my leg was trapped and I had to slide myself backwards to get back up.

 

[linh Nguyen]

Jim from NJ here. I didn't finish. You got much further than me. I struggled with sleep deprivation and pretty much stayed on the bubble with closing times, trying to keep my effort within my endurance zone. When I had a minor but rather lengthy (at least it felt that way) mechanical on the way into Loudeac, the timing just didn't work out to continue. I regret nothing. It was a fantastic experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything. The spirit of the French people in the towns and villages were the highlight and I was truly touched by their generosity.

I hear you on questioning your mount, but that always leads to a "greener grass" spiral. I rode a T50 and when I saw your setup I wished I was riding your bike. I'm sure there was a V20 somewhere in the special bikes group too. Whenever I start to blame my gear I have to get brutally honest with myself and ask if my strength and performance is optimized. The answer is usually that I can be in better shape. If that's the case then I'm not getting the most out of my bike. It's not my bike's fault.

That said, there are gains to be made with better gear. I don't think there's anything you can't do in ultracycling on an S or V series Cruzbike. That's evidenced by Maria, Jim P and Larry's records in endurance events (others too). I think there are limits to the T and Q series, mainly due to aero considerations. You've got the right mount for the task.

Like you, I've also asked myself the question (among others) if I'm cut out for the grand randonnee of 1000+ km. I don't have an answer yet. It's a great challenge, no question about that. It's also tough to put yourself through the lows both physically and psychologically. I don't think I'd want to do it on a regular basis.

I'm still processing all that I experienced and learned during PBP but found your impressions to be insightful and some to be similar to what I've been thinking about. Overall, be glad and take heart that you qualified for and participated in something that the majority of the population wouldn't dream of trying.

Hi Jim, I am not sure if you recalled me asking if you were riding an S40 on the first night. To my surprise, you said T50, my thought was it's going to be a hard ride for you.

 

[JerseyJim]

Hi Jim, I am not sure if you recalled me asking if you were riding an S40 on the first night. To my surprise, you said T50, my thought was it's going to be a hard ride for you.

Hi Linh,

I was very happy to meet a good number of people before during and after PBP. It was so nice to be around people I lovingly refer to as "the same kind of crazy" - That's all the randonneurs, and specifically, the recumbent riders - these are my people. I apologize if I don't recall our conversation, but I take your point.

The greater context for my bike choice has to do with my nature, which is in part frugal and stubborn, although those are not in equal measure and do vary upon circumstance. When I started randonneuring, way back in the early oughts (2004/2005 maybe) I was riding a short wheelbase, 26/20 wheeled, under seat steering, web seat, homebuilt recumbent. That's what I could afford and that got me into the sport. I tried a few events, didn't finish, but came close once (and that was a PA Randonneurs event - I climbed Wind Gap on that thing). I rode 96 miles of a 200k and bonked super hard from lack of fueling and the intense heat. I intended to keep participating but some family issues needed my full attention.

I bought the T50 around 2017 and I returned to the sport the following year. That's what I could afford at the time and my thought was that I would see how far it would take me. I had my first successful brevet on that bike. Once I did, I figured if I can do a 200k I can do it all, including PBP.

What gave me this confidence, or rather, this conviction, was that in looking at the history of cycling, the T50 was no worse than the old steel bikes used in the early incarnations of PBP. I figured if people used those bikes, as heavy as they were with less gears, etc., I should be able to manage with the T50. In fact, people are still riding historic bikes in PBP and they finish.

I'm well aware that when the T50 was designed, it wasn't meant to be a fast road machine, or a mountain goat. It's certainly not marketed as such. It's the equivalent of a beach cruiser or grocery-getter based on the sales copy. I have to admit that there's a subversive little part of me that enjoys doing these events on a bike that wasn't meant to be in these events. If someone wants to do randonneuring on a recumbent, I'm not going to be the one to say you can't on such and such a bike. I say "run what you brung", which includes your current fitness, and see what you can do. It's all about the challenge and what you can overcome. If nothing else, you get a good story to tell.

All that being said, If you had told me I was going to have a hard time at PBP on the T50 I would have probably just smiled, just like I smiled at the guy on the Eliptigo and the Dutch cargo bike and thought, "I see you brother". However, I know very well that I've probably maxed out my pace potential on the T50. It's really hard work to get it up to 20mph and keep it there, so I know better than to try to do that on long events. As a result, I have issues chasing closing times on hilly courses. I definitely lacked pace, which is one of my issues to improve from 2023 PBP. I'm going to remedy that next season with a new, more efficient, mount, so there goes the frugality out the window! If I am fortunate enough to be healthy and financially able in 4 years, I'll try again. Thank you for remembering me out of thousands in attendance.

 

[linh Nguyen]

Hi Linh,

I was very happy to meet a good number of people before during and after PBP. It was so nice to be around people I lovingly refer to as "the same kind of crazy" - That's all the randonneurs, and specifically, the recumbent riders - these are my people. I apologize if I don't recall our conversation, but I take your point.

The greater context for my bike choice has to do with my nature, which is in part frugal and stubborn, although those are not in equal measure and do vary upon circumstance. When I started randonneuring, way back in the early oughts (2004/2005 maybe) I was riding a short wheelbase, 26/20 wheeled, under seat steering, web seat, homebuilt recumbent. That's what I could afford and that got me into the sport. I tried a few events, didn't finish, but came close once (and that was a PA Randonneurs event - I climbed Wind Gap on that thing). I rode 96 miles of a 200k and bonked super hard from lack of fueling and the intense heat. I intended to keep participating but some family issues needed my full attention.

I bought the T50 around 2017 and I returned to the sport the following year. That's what I could afford at the time and my thought was that I would see how far it would take me. I had my first successful brevet on that bike. Once I did, I figured if I can do a 200k I can do it all, including PBP.

What gave me this confidence, or rather, this conviction, was that in looking at the history of cycling, the T50 was no worse than the old steel bikes used in the early incarnations of PBP. I figured if people used those bikes, as heavy as they were with less gears, etc., I should be able to manage with the T50. In fact, people are still riding historic bikes in PBP and they finish.

I'm well aware that when the T50 was designed, it wasn't meant to be a fast road machine, or a mountain goat. It's certainly not marketed as such. It's the equivalent of a beach cruiser or grocery-getter based on the sales copy. I have to admit that there's a subversive little part of me that enjoys doing these events on a bike that wasn't meant to be in these events. If someone wants to do randonneuring on a recumbent, I'm not going to be the one to say you can't on such and such a bike. I say "run what you brung", which includes your current fitness, and see what you can do. It's all about the challenge and what you can overcome. If nothing else, you get a good story to tell.

All that being said, If you had told me I was going to have a hard time at PBP on the T50 I would have probably just smiled, just like I smiled at the guy on the Eliptigo and the Dutch cargo bike and thought, "I see you brother". However, I know very well that I've probably maxed out my pace potential on the T50. It's really hard work to get it up to 20mph and keep it there, so I know better than to try to do that on long events. As a result, I have issues chasing closing times on hilly courses. I definitely lacked pace, which is one of my issues to improve from 2023 PBP. I'm going to remedy that next season with a new, more efficient, mount, so there goes the frugality out the window! If I am fortunate enough to be healthy and financially able in 4 years, I'll try again. Thank you for remembering me out of thousands in attendance.

 

[linh Nguyen]

My turn to tell my story I had an S1 in 2019, upgrade to S40. Took to Utah to qualify for the last 600K to go to Paris that year. I only had around 2-3K miles total on cruzbike. I remember it was hard going up hills when I was tired. The bike would go zigzag. A few time I stop I would fall off the bike because my legs were too tired or mentally tired. It took me 100 hours to finish. I got to Brest in 43 hours.

Friends were then told me to switch bike which I did and finished 2023 pbp on time but every part of my body was sore by the forth day.

I am going back to Cruzbike and try to put in more miles. Anyway when i saw you you were riding with another person.

 

[JerseyJim]

My turn to tell my story I had an S1 in 2019, upgrade to S40. Took to Utah to qualify for the last 600K to go to Paris that year. I only had around 2-3K miles total on cruzbike. I remember it was hard going up hills when I was tired. The bike would go zigzag. A few time I stop I would fall off the bike because my legs were too tired or mentally tired. It took me 100 hours to finish. I got to Brest in 43 hours.

Friends were then told me to switch bike which I did and finished 2023 pbp on time but every part of my body was sore by the forth day.

I am going back to Cruzbike and try to put in more miles. Anyway when i saw you you were riding with another person.

I think that's a great testament to the comfort of recumbent bikes and also to the challenges. Big credit to you for pushing through to the finish.

If I was riding with someone it probably wasn't for very long. I let anyone who was riding with me to feel free and go ahead if my pace was too low. I did have some pleasant conversations along the way though.

I hope I get to see you at the next one and maybe we can ride together for a while at least.

 

[aminowhey]

Fantastic reports by the both of you! I thoroughly enjoyed reading them. My own account is on Strava, but as it is as entertaining as a medical report, I'll just sum it up quickly here: my Vendetta was faster.

@DavidCH I wasn't exactly saving myself until the final stage in 2019, it's just that I kept feeling better throughout the ride. Halfway to Brest, after the first sunrise, I was feeling invigorated. After a sleep stop in Brest I thought I should try to catch some of my Norwegian friends who were all mostly treating this as a race. So the return trip was much more efficient. And halfway through the penultimate stage, right after a power nap, I felt fantastic, which is why I set the 51st fastest time (per Strava) on the final stage. This year, that short 42 km was literally night and day different. I recognised almost none of it, and I was close to falling asleep.

Hi Tor, you are a true inspiration, thank you. What is you overall perception - upright bike vs vendetta, such as fatigue, pain, not only speed?

 

[Tor Hovland]

Hi Tor, you are a true inspiration, thank you. What is you overall perception - upright bike vs vendetta, such as fatigue, pain, not only speed?

Thank you

It does depend on what you are comfortable with. It is possible to be comfortable on an upright, and it is possible to have pain on a recumbent, but in general, I would say it takes a lot more time (or luck) to be comfortable on an upright on really long rides. Almost everybody is struggling with something, typically the saddle area, but it could also be neck, back, hands, etc.

It is much easier to be supremely comfortable on a recumbent, but of course your knees, leg muscles, etc., will need to adapt to doing long rides.

I find I can go longer, faster, and more comfortable on the Cruzbike, but leg fatigue, knee soreness, and sleepiness will be more or less the same.

 

[DavidCH]

Thank you

It does depend on what you are comfortable with. It is possible to be comfortable on an upright, and it is possible to have pain on a recumbent, but in general, I would say it takes a lot more time (or luck) to be comfortable on an upright on really long rides. Almost everybody is struggling with something, typically the saddle area, but it could also be neck, back, hands, etc.

It is much easier to be supremely comfortable on a recumbent, but of course your knees, leg muscles, etc., will need to adapt to doing long rides.

I find I can go longer, faster, and more comfortable on the Cruzbike, but leg fatigue, knee soreness, and sleepiness will be more or less the same.

Leg soreness can be reduced by shorter cranks. But performance on top speed gets a hit. Shorter cranks and mid sole cleats make you more aero so the tradeoff isn't that much.

In 15 years after going to short cranks , your joints will be less painful.
(V20 advise)