Reading the tea leaves II

[John Tolhurst]

ARE CRUZBIKES 'MORE EFFICIENT RECUMBENTS'?

asked KiwiGuy, at the end of this thread: http://cruzbike.com/reading-tea-leaves

Its perhaps not the efficiency exactly that is the key to this other part of the product line up. Its more a USP of

simple, fuss-free, better. Something like that. Which expands to

Simple chainline, standard gearing setups, regular wheel sizes, lower crank height. A more practical solution.

 

[MrSteve]

Yes.

The reason I purchased my Sofrider, to begin with,
was two-fold:
-First, upright bikes are much more affordable than are any recumbent
model, but I cannot tolerate the seating position.
So I needed an expensive recumbent.

-Second, I wanted an efficient and well-built bike.
I know sensible engineering when I see it.
As soon as I saw the Cruzbike triangulated front end/drive train,
I knew that their, unique to recumbents, triangulated D.F. style
transmission, was for me.

This is how my decision has worked for me, over the years:

Every recumbent I've ever climbed hills with, I've either had to
slow down, practice smooth spinning and hone my
ultra-slow balancing skills... or just leave them
to climb alone.
The only trike I've ever met was touring -loaded with baggage- and he was slowly slogging up a long hill;
the only T-Rex in the area has never challenged me anywhere and he too
is very slow uphill;
long wheelbase recumbents are, in my experience, even slower than the T-Rex;
the local Bacchettas are all slower than the Sofrider uphill and those bike are
speeding past my Sofrider on the flats!
The new P-38 was really slow the day I caught up to it and
I passed him quickly, climbing the first hill we came to.

It's the bike, not me.
My legs are a mass of scar tissue from a hard life of test-riding motorcycles
and my aerobic capacity has always been a little less than average.
Even in high school track, the best I could manage was second in middle-distance sprints.
It's the bike, not me.

So, the short answer to John's leading question about the efficiency of the Cruzbike
powertrain is, "yes".

To sum up my long answer to John's leading question about Cruzbike efficiency,
all other factors being equal, Cruzbike has all other recumbents beat.

-Steve

 

[Ian Smith]

Slogan

Maybe consider changing the slogan to something relevant:

Cruzbike: Simply Better!

 

[trplay]

Simply enter the Hoo-Doo 500

Simply enter the Hoo-Doo 500 stage race in August with a pack of Vendettas and Silvios. Have the pack kitted up as team cruzbike and have them pull Charlie and Maria as much as possible at the starts each day. Then turn those two loose. If they can win you will never need a slogan evah!

 

[John Tolhurst]

I think race demonstration is

I think race demonstration is for the Vendetta/Silvio pair,and I think winning RAAM says it. There is a lot of climbing there. A lot of everything. This question is for the bikes that you would not enter in a race.

 

[BentBierz]

Another slogan suggestion...

RAAM It!

Eh, would probably be taken the wrong way!

 

[trplay]

The success of the Vendetta

The success of the Vendetta in the performance arena trickles down to the other bikes just like magic. You can accelerate the process by placing a Quest in the Ride the Divide Race. A much more effective way to validate the bike than catchy jingles that are open to question.

 

[richa]

Who's the target market


I think the problem is the Softrider/Quest appear to be for casual riders but but most casual rider's don't want to pay $1-2K (USD) for a bike. So many probably buy a much less expensive DF, find it's not comfortable for any length of time, and stop riding. Then they get fat and die....

While the Softrider/Quest are probably more efficient then other recumbents, that's not IMO something casual riders are that concerned with. They want comfort, which any recumbent will deliver.

But what the cruzbike supposedly is better at is offering the potential to work out the whole body*. That's why I bought it. And this could be a big selling point. Older folks have money and are looking for ways to exercise. The cruzbike is the best way to do so on a bike. It's better than walking (more fun anyway, and probably better on the joints), and more effective than other bikes. Plus, riding a bike provides a "I feel like a kid again" feeling to those that haven't been on a bike in years. Perhaps market it as a fun, comfortable way to exercise in the great outdoors. The best way and place to exercise.

And I think it's not improbable that a fair number of those that buy Softrider/Quests might trade up to a Silvio in a few years when they realize the potential of the platform and what they can do on it. I know it's crossed my mind, and a year ago I would never have thought about spending 3K on a bike.

It would be interesting to see a poll of the reasons people who bought them did so. That might provide some insight into the customer's mindset. Online polls are pretty easy to put together, and ideally you have all your customer's email addresses?

That's my 2 cents.

Rich

P.S. My first few rides were certainly whole body workouts. Over time, however, that appears to be much less true, which I'm somewhat disappointed in. I'm not really sure, however, the actual amount of "full body" workout it is or is not providing now-a-days.

P.P.S. It needs to be easier to assemble and less trouble after being assembled. My Quest has given me more problems than any other bike I've owned (and there's currently 10 in our garage). Headset comes loose, tires aren't "recreational rider" friendly (too many flats), and one of the brakes have been problematic.

 

[richa]

And one more thing...


"Simple chainline, standard gearing setups, regular wheel sizes, lower crank height. A more practical solution"

While all that may be true, I don't think any of that technical stuff matters to a customer looking for a casual bike. They want a comfortable bike that's fun to ride. Pushing a bike up a hill isn't fun. But climbing one on a Cruzbike is. It provides a sense of accomplisment and makes you feel young again.

I used to own a Wizwheelz trike. And Wizwheelz tried venturing into performance trikes but I think discovered there's no such thing. Then they started making trikes that are easy to get in (and in my opinion very ugly) and their sales took off. I think they discovered their target market was older people trying to stay fit. And a trike is Fun and decent exercise. But three wheels is too slow. Especially uphill. But a cruzbike is just as comfortable and can be ridden further.

Let the good times roll....

 

[John Tolhurst]

So, richa, condensing, we

So, richa, condensing, we could say that cruzbike : the best exercise you can do on two wheels ... ?

Thanks for thinking through.

Over time you feel less benefit, probably as your core muscles have adapted. If you stop riding and go back, you'll likely feel it again?

 

[currystomper]

Have we lost/moved away from the adventure side of Cruzbikes

Folks

I've been thinking - one of the things that attracted me to Cruzbikes was the adventure/touring side of the bikes. We had links to folk that were going on world tours on there own conversions. This side of the community is very quiet.
http://www.recyclingtheworld.us/

Maybe this is the area that could promote the Q side of the business - sponsor and follow (ie they could blog) someone on a Q across south America.

My conversion was/is great for touring loaded up with camping gear. I think that is one of the reasons I have gone for Silivio 1.5 rather than a 2.0 - its just a bit more relaxed for GT cruzing!!

You don't have to go across continents to enjoy this side of the bikes - even S24o (sub 24 hours overnight) are great!!



Cheers CS

 

[ak-tux]

@ I like your camping setup!

@currystomper, I like your camping setup! Are those panniers these ones on ebay?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370878100252?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Was considering them for some overnight bicycle camping rig.

The softrider can make good touring bikes especially considering that they can take touring tires.

 

[jimbo3b]

Why I bought my Cruzbike Conversion

We buy things in this price range to solve a (perceived) problem. And, because Cruzbikes, for the most part, are not sitting in a bike shop near you waiting for that spur-of-the-moment splurge, these are decisions that are well thought out.

In my case, I weighed over 400 lbs (close to 185 kilos). I couldn't ride a diamond frame. I built my own carbon-frame short wheel base bike, and put about a thousand miles on it in 2012 (including a 10-day dream ride across Missouri on the Katy Trail). I broke it, several times, and decided to try something else. In 2013 I bought a Linear Limo, but I kept breaking spokes and finally taco'd the rear wheel.

After examining my options, I decided that a frame designed for a normal-weight guy to use while bouncing off mountains might work for me if I treated it gently. I had access to free parts at the Lincoln Bike Kitchen, so the conversion kit was a cost-effective way to try the design. I built my own wheels, using triple-butted tandem/touring spokes in a super-strong 4-cross pattern. As a result, I've got a bike that has been trouble-free for the first 500 miles, and I've lost over 40 lbs.

Side benefits, that I'd read about but didn't really believe: the bike does climb better, but it's also the most nimble recumbent I've ridden. Now that I have the 500 miles of practice on it, the bike is more stable at low speeds, feels much safer at higher speeds, especially under power, and is much more nimble in tight corners.

I've found that dragging a trailer uphill to be easy with my Cruzbike, something I'd never consider on my former bikes. It felt like front-wheel drive made the whole system more stable.

So how does this efficiency and ride ability translate into an advertising slogan or theme? My take on it would would emphasize the positives inherent to all recumbents, but differentiate from the rest of the field by including some of the following:

Sofrider: Commute further and faster. Arrive in comfort. Haul more stuff. A rock-solid, cost-effective, efficient platform for green living. If you need repairs, the parts are at your local bike shop or cooperative.

Quest: The most efficient commuting/touring bike available, and it can fold into a suitcase or your small vehicle. Pedal longer and farther with greater ease. See more of the world, with plenty of room to carry your camping gear. Parts are standard and available everywhere.

 

[ratz]

Cruzbike: We'll support your

Cruzbike: We'll support your back without holding you back.

When a kid learns to ride a bike they discover a whole new world.
When you learn to ride a Cruzbike you rediscover a world you forgot.

 

[Robert Holler]

Great thread here. I like

Great thread here. I like relating the feeling of riding a Cruzbike (or any recumbent really) to the same "discovery" that a kid has riding a bike. It is also a paradigm that most people can wrap their mind around.

When selling a recumbent though, I typically avoid using verbiage that makes it sound like a lot of "learning" is involved because people really want things to be easy. I never tell a customer they have to "learn to ride" a bike. I relay that they only need to relax and trust themselves and the bike. And I believe the ability to ride Cruzbikes is easy and not some learned expertise.

My experience selling nearly every style of recumbent is this: if people believe riding one will be easy, and I paint the vision for them of them riding one successfully, they usually can pick it up. If they do not pick it up right away, they will always put more effort into it to achieve that vision of success. If they go into it thinking there is a ton of learning involved, and that riding a recumbent (and especially a Cruzbike) is analogous to learning an entirely new skill that they do not have, then they inevitably have a hard time and may throw up their hands after 5 minutes. There is a lot of self-fulfilling prophecy involved when selling a recumbent to someone.

Customer looking at a recumbent, "I just don't think I can do it." Me, "Of course you can you only have to visualize yourself cruising down the road on it."

On rides I may be asked, "Is that hard to ride?" or "Did you have a hard time learning to ride it?"

My answer is always, "It was easy because I could easily see myself enjoying it" or "I already knew how to ride a bike I only had to visualize myself riding this one."


This is also why I always look for good images/videos or advertisements for bikes that show ordinary people riding them and having fun. It empowers the customer to say to themselves "wow that person is doing it, so can I."

A static image of a bike is great but they have to accompanied by action shots that people can see themselves in.
Robert

 

[KiwiGuy]

I would appreciate your guidance

I'd appreciate your guidance on why you purchased a utility model Cruzbike over a Silvio (apart from price).

I confess that I'm struggling to really come to grips with the market for utility Cruzbikes. Not that I lack experience. I've commuted by bicycle for more than a decade, including three years after university when a bicycle was my sole means of transport. I've completed several long, self-supported tours, and I've done many more two to four day tours carrying minimal gear and staying overnight in a bed & breakfast and/or cabin (what I call credit card touring).

I think that the performance range of Cruzbikes are the most compelling bicycle offerings across all the df and recumbent brands. But I don't understand what the utility Cruzbikes offer. To take the three markets one by one:

Self-Supported Touring
The market for bikes that can handle self-supported touring is very small. Take the recumbent slice of a very small market, and the viability of a small, niche manufacturer providing a bike for that market seems pretty poor to me.

Credit Card Touring
Much bigger market. I know lots of guys who go 'credit card' touring at least once a year. In the Cruzbike range, the Silvio is the perfect bike for that.

Commuting
Honestly as a commuter, dfs rule. I can't think of a single recumbent that makes a better commuter than a df. Where dfs shine are in three areas - low bottom bracket; ability to unweight so I can jump potholes, debris on the road, and kerbs; and a seat that does not soak up too much water when it rains - so dries out quickly. Recumbents can't compete in any of these three areas.

If I were to use a recumbent for commuting, I would do it during the summer/daylight saving period only when there is not a lot of rain. And the ideal Cruzbike for that - the Silvio IMHO.

Clearly many of you have a different view of the Cruzbike world, so I'm keen to understand it. Why would I buy a utility Cruzbike model instead of a Silvio - except for price?

Kind regards...

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Blair,
Except for price

Hi Blair,

Except for price you keep writing. Except for that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? *

The Silvio doesn't take tires wider than 28mm. That's an issue (in my mind at least). The 451 Quest packs completely into a single suitcase. That's a huge advantage for those who want to fly with their bikes.

I can pull trail-a-bikes with my two Cruzbikes (can't do that with a Silvio). I don't have any problem pulling a trailer (not clear I'd want to do that with a Silvio).

I'm a big fan of the Silvio, but (1) it's not cheap (it's not unfairly priced, but it's not cheap) and (2) it's not as useful in many situations as the utility Cruzbikes.

Cheers,
Charles

* For the non-Americans, this is a reference to Abraham Lincoln's assassination while watching a play.

 

[Jeremy S]

Hi Blair, I originally bought

Hi Blair, I originally bought a Sofrider because I had never spent even $1000 on a bike and while the Silvio looked phenomenal, it cost a few times that. Eventually I got over that hangup and purchased a Silvio for around $3500.

While I agree with you that DF bikes have a lot of advantages in commuting -- I would put compactness, low-speed maneuverability and quick stop/starts as the top reasons for that -- I think Cruzbikes are practical for commuting. If it's rainy, for example, throw a plastic bag over the seat like you would with a DF (sure you need a bigger bag). I personally never "jump" anything even when I ride a DF (never acquired that skill). And if you are commuting any real distance, a recumbent will be much more comfortable.

I might be willing to subject my Silvio to the rigors of daily commuting, but I would not be willing to leave it locked up outside on a rack all day, every day. If you have access to one, an indoor bike room may be a bit safer from theft but they tend to be quite crowded so your bike will get knocked around. Ivan can park his Silvio in his office which is great, but my workplace and most of the places I would commute to don't allow bikes inside.

 

[Ivan]

Hi Blair,
For commuting I

Hi Blair,

For commuting I think a recumbent is only good for longer distances. For a 30 min regular ride, I think a DF rules and I would ride my Brompton folder for that. But for a longer commute (mine is an hour one way) I think a recumbent rules due to comfort. This type of commute is 2 hours so over a few days, together with the tiring work day, is almost a short tour! I use a Silvio for this, while others have used the "utility" Cruzbikes or folding conversions.

 

[richa]

Market for utility Cruzbikes


There are more markets than just Touring and Commuting. Trek's a popular brand of DF around here (My family has a few), and they make a whole range of bikes, as do most of the main bike manufacturers. So lets look at the bike markets as they define them.

Trek's website has three categories listed, Road, Mountain, and Town. Road's subcategories are where the Silvio/Vendetta fit, Mountain likely doesn't have a Cruzbike Equivalent, and Town is where the Softrider/Quest fit.

Town has a few subcategories, such as Recreation and Fitness being two of them

The Recreation section says (from the trekbikes website): "?Trek recreation bikes are built for what bicycling is really about: the joy of hopping on your bike and going, just for the fun of it. The relaxed, stable riding position keeps things easy, and plush saddles and generous gearing encourage you to keep riding just a little longer. Saddle up, roll out, and enjoy every minute of the ride"

The fitness sectin say (again, from the trekbikes website) "This is our most popular bike category, with good reason. Fitness bikes are the ultimate multi-talented ride. Workout machine, capable commuter, suburban warrior... they do it all well. They're the surest answer to the question, "What kind of bike should I get?""

I think the Softrider/Quest fit into those categories very, very well. In some cases, possibly even better than the bikes Trek is selling.

Fitness/Recreation for non-hard-core riders. That, IMO, is the market for the Quest/Softrider.

I think Cruzbike should consider selling the Quest/Softrider at near cost, to get them out there and expand the name recognition, thereby increasing sales of the Silvio/Vendetta, which is likely where they can maximize profit. That's my 2 cents... FWIW.

Rich