Reading the tea leaves II

[KiwiGuy]

Thanks for your quick comments

Thanks to those who have made comments so quickly. Still interested in other comment as well.

Charles - I understand the price issue, hence I wanted to exclude it. Point well made about tire size, with which I agree.

Not sure on how many people want a foldable bike they can fit in a suitcase. A mate has one for him and his wife. Since they don't have children they can afford to travel extensively and those bikes work superbly for them. But of all the cyclists I know and have known, no-one else has any interest. Consequently I question the size of the market, handy though the concept may be.

Jeremy - point well made about the rigors of commuting and locking up. I just happen to think that a df like a Charge Grater 3 is going to work better in that environment than any recumbent for multiple reasons. It fades into the background (because it is not unusual), it is not front-end heavy, it has cross-bar you can lean it against posts, and conventional bike racks are designed for dfs.

Ivan - what you say makes sense. My commute is 35 minutes each way so a df rules. For an hour or more each way, the compass would swing to a recumbent as you say. That said, most commuting I've done has been in the 30 to 45 minutes range each way. Not many people are going to be prepared to do much more than this. I'd say you are in the very fit and dedicated minority!

Richa - you got me. I hadn't thought about fitness and recreation riders. Let me check out your thinking on this further.

Imagine that Cruzbike did an old skool version of the Silvio. Used the HF frame (the component sharing should cut costs) but took the seat back up to the 35 - 40 degrees range (like the Silvo 1), made room for 32mm tyres, and removed the suspension to cut costs further. Now you can choose between the 'Old Skool Silvio' (which is significantly cheaper than the current Silvio 2.x) and the Quest and the Sofrider. Is there any difference between these three bikes for the fitness and recreation market? What would compel you to purchase a Quest or Sofrider over the 'Old Skool Silvio' in this scenario?

Kind regards...

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Blair,
You keep saying

Hi Blair,

You keep saying that for short commutes a DF makes more sense than a Cruzbike. I completely disagree with this.

Part of this difference I think has to do with seat angle. Being able to have a more upright angle makes high traffic situations easier (again another advantage of Sofrider/Quest over new Silvio. (I suppose this is similar to some riders preferring to use a hybrid bicycle to commute instead of a drop bar road DF).

I'll also point out that riding on gravel trails, etc is something better handled with tires wider than you can get on the Silvio.

Chevrolet markets cars from the Spark to the Corvette. There are a lot of issues with GM, but their range of products isn't one of them.

The biggest point I think you're underestimating is that until Cruzbikes are ubiquitous and easily found at the corner LBS, then having the much cheaper but still extremely functional options is important.

Jim Parker and I had a brief phone conversation. His point was that the conversion kit sales have dropped off and that now Silvios flying out. This is, in my opinion, a reasonable if not unfortunate reason to drop the kits. I think the whole marketing angle is mostly a red herring.

(And for every example of a company like Apple and showing "restraint" at not bringing products to market (which isn't a great parallel to the situation here), there are half a dozen examples of companies that failed because the drifted too far from third roots).

Cheers, Charles

 

[Eric Winn]

Commuting is what works for

Commuting is what works for you and what you need to carry and is easy, and a bonus if it is fun and cool.

For example, when I was closer to work I did 30-40 minute commutes on my Mobiky (@14-15 mph, passing several slow DFs):



When I got to work, I popped the DynaPack XL bag off its quick release and hung it from the front hook, tapped the lock bar release which drops the seat post about half way down, pulled up on the carry handle to get the main fold (wheels tucked), carried it on the stairs and otherwise rolled it in folded form to then keep it by my desk where I then folded the handlebars down, dropped the seat and folded the pedals:



That bag expands and can hold a full size bike helmet in the expanded space and still have the bottom half for a change of (light weight) clothes or similar.

I've also done regular 17-22 mile riding with this including hills. It has a 3 speed IGH.

Relative to this thread:

It isn't technically a "DF" but is better for a short commuter because it folds very fast - about 1 second for the seat drop and wheel tuck, and about 2-4 more seconds to get it fully compact as above (less a little seat post telescoping due to the DynaPack mount clip). This kind of "fast" fold is what attracts the folding bike crowd. The spend time disassembling it a bit to fold the frame so you can pack it in a suitcase is less attractive. Also with a bag like the DynaPack you can carry a reasonable amount of stuff with you, its attractive, and uses a quick disconnect fastener and is easy to carry.

Anyway my point is I don't think the Quest's foldability is it's main selling point but just an optional bonus as a "packable" bike vs a "folding" bike. I think it's main selling point is it looks cool, includes a very clever rack, a kickstand, and in 559 form comes with wheels that are more road like (and can be ridden fairly fast if desired) and in 451 form is even easier to "pack" and more likely to have MTB like wheels for coarser surfaces (where I expect it to be very adroit). Actually I am personally really drawn to the look of the smaller wheels for some reason, not sure why. Maybe left over from my fondness for my Mobiky 12 inch wheels?

The suspension is also welcome. I discovered more harshness on some of my roads with my Vendetta that was not apparent riding the Quest.

?-Eric

 

[John Tolhurst]

There isn't anything absolute

There isn't anything absolute where distances and recumbent appropriateness is concerned. Its a matter of personal choice. 99% of people go with a DF for distances between zero and infinity. So I think there can be no real conclusions to draw there.

Choices are made in context. We know from experience that putting a quest or sofrider up against DF town bikes in a bike shop doesn't work. We know that we have to win the customer conceptually. To feed that concept building, we need to explain how to think about the town bikes in way which is favourable to making a purchase. That is the job of sales and marketing. To be favourable we need to point to something that is clearly true and clearly beneficial and clearly not available elsewhere. It has to be the front wheel drive that does this. It is clearly a true statement, clearly not available elsewhere and clearly delivers benefits of simplicity and robustness combined with full body exercise.

 

[Kungfuguy]

As an aside, no bicycle

As an aside, no bicycle company has truly addressed the problem of bike theft. It is a serious problem that law enforcement mostly ignores. Why should a bike company use its energies to solve this problem? Perhaps, increased sales.

The Quest is a nice bike. But a true folding utility cruzbike would be a solution to bike theft. Take it inside just like Eric does with his folder. Anti-theft, carry on and folding convenience are big selling points that hasn't not been addressed in an utility CB. I've noticed the discussion about marketing/branding tends to get rather technical: fwd, efficiency, performance, etc... I don't deny the technical merits of the CB. I think the message needs to be simpler. Anti-theft, carry on, and folding are easy to picture in your mind. While the benefits of fwd and efficiency are true, it's not easy to picture or market.

 

[Jeremy S]

When I sold my Sofrider,

When I sold my Sofrider, three people came to look at it.

The first customer was a guy who rode recumbents rather than DF bikes because of health issues. I believe he commuted on his bike. He had "bike E" and wanted something faster, with bigger wheels that would handle rough roads better. After test riding (and doing very well) he made an offer which I declined.

The second customer was a woman who rode a recumbent for reasons I don't remember. She was looking for something faster than her current bike, so that she could keep up with friends on DF bikes during recreational rides. She did not do so well on her test ride, looked annoyed, and did not make an offer on the bike.

The third and final customer was a guy with a collection of recumbents of various configurations. He wanted to try yet another design, and I believe see if it could climb better than his other recumbents (he lived on a big hill). He had no interest in a test ride, and bought the bike after a quick inspection.

So not a big sample and probably skewed by the Craigslist ad I posted, but here's what they seemed to be looking for:

- Faster than other recumbents, due to big wheels and short/efficient drivetrain.
- Better able to handle rough roads (we have lots of those here in Mass) than other recumbents, due to big wheels and suspension.
- Better hill climbing than other recumbents, due to short/efficient drivetrain.
- A different design.

Lots of other recumbent designs have small wheels, or at least a small front wheel, so that the wheel can clear the pedals (the Quest 451 has small wheels for a different reason). The MBB design allows a large front wheel in combination with a lowish bottom bracket which seems unique.

 

[John Tolhurst]

So, the benefits are largely

So, the benefits are largely the same as with Silvio and Vendetta, but they are benefits of the generic format. However we still need to position each group separately.

 

[Jeremy S]

Guess so, John.

Guess so, John. But low price (relatively speaking) is also a selling point.

 

[Eric Winn]

Yes, I agree. It was the

Yes, I agree. It was the concept of FWD/MBB that first attracted me and won me over to Cruzbike. I was never fond of the look of RWD recumbents with their long chains, idlers and such.

The configurations where you have to worry about heel strike or chain interference just left me dumbfounded.

I then discovered Raptobike with their FWD twister and idlers which seemed to be a good improvement over RWD and was on the verge of buying one when I stumbled across Cruzbike.com.

At this point I kept going back and forth between Raptobike and Cruzbike. Both FWD but the Raptobike was a twist chain with idlers and a much shorter chain than RWD bikes but yours was an even shorter straight chain, no idlers and the more I looked and read about it the more sense it made and I just felt like a Cruzbike would be more fun to ride.

So I decided I would buy on faith and started out looking for a used Silvio and failing that was going to buy a new (at the time) Silvio 1.5. I got lucky when a Silvio 1.0 came up for sale near me and I was able to go try it out.

When I actually rode my first FWD/MBB Cruzbike, powering through corners while pedaling I discovered these things are also incredibly fun. Unfortunately, the Silvio 1.0 didn't really fit me so I decided to buy new.

Since I was going to buy new I decided to compare the Silvio and Vendetta and decide which one best suited how I liked to ride.

I also had to take some time to get over the sticker shock. Prior to my Vendetta, the most I had spent on a bicycle was my $700 Mobiky.

The Silvio was really compelling but then after thinking about what kind of riding I wanted to do I decided to go for the Vendetta.

The other thing that really sold me on Cruzbike was this web site and the active participation of you, Jim, Maria, Doug and a lot of Cruzbike owners. Reading through old threads both here and on BROL I could see how hard everyone was working to make Cruzbike successful. And even more impressive to see both Jim and Maria busting butt proving how good the design is. Some of those old threads on BROL are beyond harsh. I could see you guys really believed in what you were doing. I am impressed with how you are constantly introducing dramatic improvements. You also have some exceptional ambassadors. Charles Plager, in particular, really helped in my decision and assessment because of what and how he has posted both here and in his own blog. That and we seem to share some of the same sense of humor.

I can't stress how important the outreach and communication helped me to reach a decision. I am still attracted to Arnold's Raptobikes and as I mentioned above was literally on the verge of ordering one but had sent him a question or two but never got a reply. About the same time I was reading on BROL about a few people who had bought a Raptobike but had not received any order status despite emails and in some cases phone calls. Contrast that with several PMs between John and myself with some questions about the Silvio and a return call from Jim from either an email or a phone message I had left. Plus all of the support and interchanges on this forum. That pretty much sealed the deal for me.

-Eric

 

[super slim]

The great, helpful,

The great, helpful, knowledgeable, Cruzbike community, and Jim's, John's and Doug's inputs was also a turning point for me, when I ordered my Silvio frame in 2008, without test riding it, OR any two wheeled recumbent.

The other point was, that all the reports I read on the Internet on home built 2 wheeled recumbents, ALL stated that the bikes handling and rolling resistance improved when the wheels diameter was increased.

In 2008, I think Cruzbike was the ONLY recumbent that had 700C wheels front and rear.

If you have picked up 3 lengths of 9 speed chain (1.1Kg) for my Scorpion FX trike, that feels much heavier than that, then a single chain length is very attractive!

The biggest surprise for me once I rode it, was how effective having rigidly supported handlebars in line from the shoulders to the BB, was in allowing the upper body to efficiently assist in the power delivery.

Within 2 weeks of building the Silvio, I went in a 220 km(138 ml) race (Around the Bay in a Day) in Victoria, Aust. and the aching of my arms were my weak link, as I had been training on my trike, where with under seat steering, the arms are only for steering, and not even balancing.

I was being constantly told to relax, but as soon as I did, I would wobble all over the road, and when there are 15,000 riders on the road with you, there was not heaps of room.

My average speeds for the same 100 km flat course, on the Silvio were 5 to 8 kph faster than the touring trike.

Super Slim

 

[Peder Torgersen]

I bought my first recumbent

I bought my first recumbent used a Phantom from Lightning in 2006 liked it very much but found it not to be so practical on dirt roads and when it rained.
I got my Sofrider in 2007 I remember when looking at the pictures of it that it's not the best looking recumbent but it looked very practical.
I found out it was more practical then I had expected.
The slow speed handling is great I can ride very slowly in crowds and it has a very small turning radius.
It often rains here and I have to park my ride outside with the Sofrider I took the cushions inside I couldn't do that with my Phantom.
I have a rain cape and was able to keep the seat dry during riding and if the seat did get wet the pads dried reasonably fast indoor.
I have even used my Sofrider for winter riding with studded tires.
There was some wheel spin on steep climbs but it functioned better than I had expected.
The seat height is great for winter riding ice was not so slippery with good tires snow is often more slippery depending on the amount and temperature. I could use my feet as support going down snowy slippery roads you can't do that comfortably on a DF.
I would not recommend winter riding for anyone on any bike there are many dangers during the snow and ice season.

I also have a Vendetta it's not as practical as a Sofrider I would never ride a Vendetta during the winter. The slow speed handling is not as good as on a Sofrider so I wouldn't' ride it where I have to ride through a crowd in a shopping area.

The Vendetta is a much better climber than a Sofrider and the speed on the flats are impressive.
I'm 57 and I like to be able to ride fast and the Vendetta is fun to ride and I can keep up also on the climbs when I'm on a club ride.

I'm a recumbent dealer we sell different recumbents also RWD and trikes.
The price for a Sofrider is reasonable but for some customers that are used to average DF they are expensive.
I'm located in Grimstad Norway we sell some recumbents to customers here in Norway and also our neighboring countries.
The price of all the recumbents here are higher than in USA because we have to import which means freight cost and sales tax here adds 25% to the price.

Selling any recumbent isn't easy and FWD like a Cruzbike is very different for most people but the more attention they get and people see them on the road they will be aware that they exist and some new customers buy them each year .

A Sofrider is a very practical recumbent at a reasonable price.
A Vendetta is for someone that wants a comfortable fast ride and possibly climbs better than any RWD recumbent.

 

[richa]

softrider - the new gateway drug

To a habit that will make you fitter....

 

[Jeremy S]

I agree with pretty much

I agree with pretty much everything Bob said.

I know talking about colors is a trap (way too much personal taste involved) but I will say the Sofrider in blue looks miles better than the old silver one I had, almost makes me want to buy another! The Quest in orange, not so much.

I think the strongest on-bike branding Cruzbike has is the fat Vendetta boom with the CRUZBIKE block letters on the side. I wish my Silvio had that (in black and white)! And yet nowhere on the website can I find a clear picture of it (without digging through the forums anyway).

Trying to get back on point, for me the Sofrider was a gateway Cruzbike. I would rather have bought a Silvio up front since it looked like it was designed from the ground up to be what it was, rather than looking like a retrofitted mountain bike. However the Sofrider was a fraction of the cost and the higher seat angle seemed like it would be easier to learn with. Now that I sold my Sofrider, I kind of wish I still had it for casual rides where I could leave the bike locked up outside and not worry too much.

 

[ratz]

Shaping impressions.

I could spend 10 paragraphs agreeing with Eric. The facts are I simply wouldn't have purchased a Silvio if the community hadn't been here to bring me up to speed on the topics, fill in the blanks in my understanding and show me all the details of the bikes. In the end Eric's and Ivan's bike builds were the bait, and the community set the hook.

Now don't kill me for the following opinions.

Let's assume the goal is to sell to the those people who do not yet have a predisposition to buy a recumbent.

One of the main barriers to entry for me was the esthetics of the bike. If a bike has bad lines or looks cheap to an uneducated eye they are not going to sell.

Prior to the hydro-formed models, the lines of the bikes and the large visible welds just didn't do it for me relative to the price points of the bikes. Function follows form and lines imply performance and quality, at least in the minds of the consumer. I am as guilty of this thinking as anyone else. The V1 and S1/S1.5 where probably wonderful bikes, but I would never have purchased them and the same goes for the Quest or the Softrider for similar reasons.

Now many months later that I understand the platform and I would buy any of the models and be excited to ride them, but that acceptance required understanding how to look at the bikes.

Like many people I have my shallow moments, the look of the bike or the look of the rider on the bike influences me. You cannot escape the fact that for a large percentage of potential customer the prejudices in the backs of my minds will drive them to react to how the bike looks. I think that would have large part to do with a Softrider sitting next to a DF Town not selling well even if the price was identical. Carbon bikes and their smooth lines only compound the problem.

To me, the softrider and quest can at times look like Grandpa's bike and the consumers that Cruzbike needs to attract are not shopping for grandpas bike. Ok all of you who just heard me call you grandpa; relax, you know what I mean. We all know better But to the populace at large it doesn't matter that grandpa will blow past you riding his softrider in the real world; because back on the shop floor the performance of the bike is not implied by just looking at the bike.

I am not sure how you fix that but that's why this conversation is happening.

The holly grail is figuring out how to get people to grok the advantages of the bikes so they will strongly consider buying them. When that understanding happens then the form of the bike suddenly isn't foreign and it can be appreciated.

Test rides are not the answer; seems to me that 80% of the people can't just jump on the bike and ride it, I couldn't and neither could my oldest daughter. While I could see that I could learn, she wanted nothing to do with bike, that's a huge obstacle. Our test rides were with a Quest. Now that she has seen the Silvios in person all road ready; her attitude is changing she thinks learning to ride MBB might be worth it.

So for the ride part the focus to be making it look to super easy, like another poster said, make people feel anyone can ride it; so they feel the urge to try and to learn. So you are back to speaking for the bike in marketing; or improving the look of the bike so that it calls to people. A kid riding a bike makes it look easy. There are no cruzbikes sized for 8 year olds; so there are no photos of them riding them. Can that be fixed?

I see at least three ways to sell the bikes to more people.

1) The Halo affect; get a ton of Silvio's and Vendetta's on the road and make people aware of the platform. Every time I go for a group ride this summer I will be making an impression on the other riders; they will become aware of the platform through me. Now I just need a good website to send them too that will have sexy looking bikes that they expect to find; and tons of modern presentation and quality. Hint current website isn't going to do it unless I do a lot of marketing before hand on the road rider to rider. I'm in IT I understand good website cost time and money. Right now I'd send someone to the site with the disclaimer; "understand they put all the efforts into the bikes and not the web site, here is my email contact me with questions after you have a look" This can be fixed.

2) Keep chasing and searching for a great marketing message that helps people understand the bikes. The post about Trek's strategies earlier is on the mark; and a new website could take the lead on that. You need to spell it out for people.

3) Continue to refine and improve the look and functions of the bikes so that they call to people across the show room floor. Replace sharp angles and welds with curves wherever possible, adopt welding techniques that hide the beads. Improve the wire routing, clean up the look of the seat. Go with larger diameter booms; the ones on the quest and softrider; while functionally perfect; make the bikes look cheap, (the Silvio just barely escapes that trap) Reconsider the colors: Orange attracts a small market and puts off a ton more than it attracts. Car makers all sell red, white, black as the main colors with blue and green being sub colors. There is a reason for those color choices. Yes some people love the orange but that's not the point. More people like red, white and black. Almost anyone will buy a red or white bike; while there are people who will not buy an orange one no matter what.

FWIW I think stick bikes are ugly; and now I've got my eye on a quest; but that's because I'm now educated. But if the quest or softrider had better looks I'd probably already have one from last year.


Cruzbike... finally a bike that will not gather dust in your garage.

 

[Ivan]

Eric, I did not know you went

Eric, I did not know you went from a $700 bike to a brand new Vendetta! That's an even bigger leap of faith than mine to the Silvio 2 as my first recumbent. I always bought 2nd hand bikes before that, but I knew I wanted Silvio 2 the moment the first prototype pics came out. I had lurked in the forums for a year, as confident of the community, and had almost memorized your build of Vendetta! The positive reviews of both Silvio 1.5 and Vendetta made me quite certain that Silvio 2 was the bike for me.

As one of the first Silvio 2 customers, this was why I did my detailed build post and was keen to give back to the community. When John asked me to take some marketing photos of my build, I proudly said sure! What a unique community!! Indeed, this is a great selling point of Cruzbikes and now Silvios are flying off the shelves due to the superb design and the enthusiastic discussions going on here!

I am all with Ratz on the aesthetic of the bike. For the utility bikes, if they could adopt the telescoping boom to handlebar design of Silvio/Vendetta that would be great. Who would argue that those pics of my Silvio sold a lot more Silvios! Aesthetics are important! Improving the boom and colour of Quest would sell a lot more and it would still be very distinct from Silvio and Vendetta.

 

[Eric Winn]

I really like the blue

I really like the blue Sofrider color and it looks good in this video with Maria:

FWIW I think stick bikes are ugly; and now I've got my eye on a quest; but that's because I'm now educated. But if the quest or softrider had better looks I'd probably already have one from last year.

-Eric

 

[super slim]

Eric,
     The Blue is

Eric,
The Blue is better, but I think a more vibrant blue with flakes would be better, as a more Vibrant Orange? with flakes for the Quest.
The Quality and the depth of the paint work makes a BIG difference to tyre kickers.

The Vendetta colour scheme with a chromes front fork and polished Al steerer tube looks good and creates a flowing effect.
Should ALL Cruzbikes have the Cruzbike logo on the steerer tube where it is visible with the rider on the bike, and have Silvio, Vendetta, etc, on the main frame where it can be larger, and also on the rear stay, but smaller where it can be seen at all times?

Would the Silvio 2 look better with a white font fork, and white upper rear strut?

Are there any Photoshop Gurus who can change the colour schemes of ALL the current Cruzbikes?

Super Slim

 

[ratz]

Good Art is....welll art.

SS good points.

Yes we could grab some stock photos and mock up colors as a community. But the results would not be that great and they might lead to incorrect conclusions. Experience teaches that quick hacks can be useful at the macro level can be a bit of a trap where the details are concerned.

To do effective color swapping on photos what you really need are green screen photo graphs of the angles you want to look at (angle matter a lot in color selection). It's possible to clip-out a photo with a background and other such items; but you always get artifacts and imperfections; it can be done but it's expensive and take a couple hours per photo (and the talent to do it right); it is far cheaper to get some green screen, if possible, or white-outs (like Ivan took) if you can't afford the greens. Perhaps another way to classify this is, I can pay to have someone cut a model out of photograph down to the air gaps in the stands of wind blown hair; but it's far cheaper to take a green screen photo to start with.... Spoke on bikes are about as much fun as hair in the wind; aka they are evil.

That all said colors remain an easy topic and you are 100% exactly right anything with metal flake adds depth to the surface, hides blemishes, smooth lines, and generally appeals to the public. (For those into NFL football you might be surprised to know that all helmets are metal flaked to make them look better on TV). The only risk with flaking it to make sure to stay subtle with the amount you don't want your product to look like a 1975 fiberglass boat.

Now Logos on the other hand are far trickier to do right. They require planning, vision, and a budget. You can, and people do, just whip stuff together. Unfortunately, everyone will know you did it on the cheap because it will be apparent in the inconsistencies and the conflicts in the lines of the product. Great for startups; not so good for established brands trying to refine an image.

The first part to consider is logo placement. Bike part re-use and reduction has been discussed here in these threads. If the model line starts to head toward a common S tube shared by 2 or more models. Then you want the Company Name "CruzBike" on the S Frame; and you want the model name to be on the swappable parts like the boom and the rear forks that will be unique to the models. In that way you only pay to for one main set of frames. This also means that a "Red" S Frame can be used to build a "red" bike in any of the model based on that tube. This planning ahead opens the doors for more colors at less cost and less inventory issues. A common "S" would help prevent things like the Silvio being out of stock 2-3 times in the last 12 months. (Good problem to have to solve btw).....

So: you have 3 main logo areas.
1) Side of S frame suitable for company name
2) Boom suitable for model name or company name or both
3) Rear fork suitable for model name

After you pick the areas; you have to think about a font; stroke and slop that matches the lines of the bike and conveys the message you want to send. It also has to be readable from a distance.

When you reach this understanding of the basic ideas, a smart company will stop brainstorming; and will abandon their preconceived ideas of what it should look like. They will then engage a professional designer that does On-Product-Logos for a living; it's a an odd skill set and the people that are good at it produce cool stuff and you can tell the difference. You don't engage your brother-in law for this sort of thing after you depart the Startup part of the business lifecycle.

What you want to do is let that artist hear YOUR story about YOUR product. Tell them what you want people to feel about YOUR product when they look at it. Then convey the restrictions on which logos can go where because of part reuse and manufacturing cost control; and turn them loose. A good artist will lead you through to a design that meets those goals. Then you use those logos schemes for 1-3 generations to build YOUR brand, then you do it again. It's not a cheap process but it works; and that's how the big boys do it.

Notice I CAPPED the word YOUR. Never forget that when working with a designer; You need them to come up with the ideas. You keep making them iterate until it feels like it is YOUR product. But you never tell them use this font or move this here; that always gives lesser results. Instead guide them with how you react to it in general. You say things like "that doesn't say fast to me" or "that looks too retro". When you do that you get better results in each iteration. This last bit is really hard to do and you have to trust your designer.

ok there's a free $1.50 of consulting sadly it's only worth what you paid for it. Someone else might have better thoughts.

 

[scabinetguy]

Something to chew on

Here's my turbo charged Quest, all road components, 700cc aero wheels,road calipers(used the kick stand bracket for the rear brake mount). Had to make a 5mm spacer for the 135mm front hub and recenter the rim on the hub.Added Vendetta handle bars.This bike is all adjustable and has a great rear shock system. Great for commuting because of the rack. Reminds me of the Sivio 1.5 only more comfortable. This bike is hellafast.

 

[trplay]

Finally something that makes

Finally something that makes a lot of sense. I suspect many Silvio Road bike owners who remake them into things like commuters, tourers, off road etc would be better off going the Turbo Quest route.