reading the tea leaves

[John Tolhurst]

Hi Everyone,

I'm just wrapping up a trip to Taiwan to visit our manufacturing partners. This time, Jim and Maria Parker joined me to look at the Taiwan cycle show (Cycle Taipei) and make a factory visit.

One of the questions that came up that I thought some of the forum members might want to weigh in on concerns the pricing of Silvio and Vendetta. As some have commented, Silvio is more complex, on the other hand - Vendetta is faster.

Interested to hear your thoughts. If you were Cruzbike's marketing manager, would you review the pricing? Why?

Regards to all, from Taiwan.
John

 

[Andrew 1973]

My Perspective

From a customer perspective, I can imagine questioning the near-nine-hundred dollar difference between the Silvio and the Vendetta. I would look at the Silvo and note the carboyoke stays, and the suspension and I would wonder why I get the extras for less than the cost of a Vendetta. However, when not comparing apples to apples, it is notable that the Silvo and Vendetta are quite a bit different and they have appeal to different riders. I could, however, see someone overlooking the performance of the Vendetta and going for the Silvio because it does have the buzzword-worthy carbon parts, it's a damned sexy looking machine, and it's a good bit more affordable; more money for components!

I do have to wonder...what if the Vendetta and Silvio came in at the same price point? It could be interesting. Just don't make the Silvio more expensive ;-)

 

[Jeremy S]

It seems like pricing the

It seems like pricing the Vendetta above other Cruzbikes enhances its prestige. Stripped down sports cars from premium brands cost extra, because they offer more performance. That said, I am not interested in buying a Vendetta because I don't prioritize absolute speed that much. Even if it cost more than the Vendetta, I would probably still buy the Silvio.

 

[ak-tux]

It all about the volumes

If it was possible to make the two models to share as many components as possible then their volumes will compensate for each other hence their prices can only be slightly different from each other, hopefully even lower.

For example, hypothetically speaking, if they had almost identical sliding boom design with the only difference being the flexing carbon stays and fork, then the sales of either will increase volume of manufacture for the booms e.t.c. This way, we may even probably see some customers interchanging their front ends depending on their ride conditions and taste. Imagine a Silvio with a Vendetta front end, for example, to tackle the super smooth roads and back to the Silvio front end for a cheap sealed road race or general purpose riding. The possibilities are many.

That said, the Silvio is more appealing to me, for no scientific reason. If I could afford it, then that's what I would buy.

 

[trplay]

Silvio is priced high enough

I wouldn't raise the price of the Silvio to compensate for the price difference. The cost of the base frame plus taxes, and components to match the bike quality already put this bike higher than comparable bikes in its category.

 

[Charles.Plager]

I completely agree that it

I completely agree that it would be unfortunate if the Silvio price got raised.

I can imagine that with the new Silvio, the Vendetta sales have dropped and lowering the price of it may make sense.

I do understand that it does seem somewhat strange to have the "more complicated bike" (the Silvio and it's suspension) be less expensive.

How 'bout this:

You guys lower the price of the Vendetta and then go in with Vite bikes and produce a Super-V - carbon fiber Vendetta.

Cheers, Charles

 

[MrSteve]

My Two Cents

Silvio sources its carboyokes and air fork from other Taiwan-made bikes,
so its suspension, although uniquely mounted on a FWD MBB recumbent,
is certainly not unique.

The Vendetta, like any other consumer good, is priced for what it's target market
will bear.

Feel free to jack the retail prices up to keep pace with ever-rising labour, transportation
and inflation costs.

What I really think is that what you think about your passion is what really matters
and that you think enough of your fanbase to ask for feedback is telling.

-Steve

 

[ratz]

Drive the R&D and trickle.down

I see nothing wrong with the Vendetta costing more.

The Vendetta is the race model, it needs to cost more, volumes will probably be less, if the Cruzbike brand is to advance R&D must be funded and R&D's best ideas will come from race. The vendetta is about evolution. The Silvio on the other hand is about refinement, when race tech matures it becomes refined and more suitable for the larger audience. The price on the Silvio should come down over time, and the model should iterate at half the rate of the Vendetta. A stable Silvio allows more time to generate profit while selling on less margin but more volume.

A stable Silvio owner base should pine for the tech to trickle down so they can upgrade to the next Silvio, they shouldn't pine for a Vendetta unless it an N+1 bike and not a Silvio replacement.

That business model allows the next Vendetta to solve things like (1) change the front tire without fusing problem, (2) resolve the weight issues on the front forks, (3) perhaps look at carbon+ aluminum blended tubes (there are wonderful examples in the cross bike world that would be spectacular the V. (4) explore 135mm or 132.5mm spacing to embrace a disc world. (5) Aero trunk. (6) hydro formed drop bars. All of that costs money to design.

Meanwhile the Silvio is solid state of the art, in 24 months it might get some refinements, like (1) a second color, (2) a new fork for 22 spd, (3) better cable management, (4) better drop bars. all low cost tweaks while it waits for the Vendetta to evolve.

Eventually you may want to make the Vendetta, the muscle car while replacing it on the high end with something all new and spectacular., Then You can make it priced equal to or less than the Silvio, modify it slight to ease up on the seat angle and let the enhancements on the V slow down to maybe to 36 months and sell it to those that can't afford a Silvio, or want entry level race

oh and while that is happening the v2k needs a fork, should look cool and should be selling as the $500-600 gateway drug.

When you make the Vendetta less than the Silvio then we all be waiting for the announcement of what you are replacing it with..

 

[scabinetguy]

Suggestions

Here's a suggestion. I have both a Vendetta and a Silvio 2.0. Why not scrap the Vendetta and sell the Silvio with options( or vise versa). The Silvio, for example, could be sold with the Vendetta front end and steering boom, giving you basically the light weight and speed of the Vendetta at a 27 degree seat angle and rear suspension. I suggest this because the two bikes have a very similar ride.

 

[jimbo3b]

Differentiate!

John, my short answer is that you should raise the price of future iterations of the V.

If I understand your original question, it could be rephrased like this: would the rest of us in the Cruzbike community buy more V's if the price were similar to the price of the S? Knowing nothing about the numbers, I would assume that Cruzbike is making more off the S at its lower margin, because they are flying out the door, while the V is not selling so well. I would guess at some point if you're wondering if you should put any future effort into the V.

The V is the current headline-maker for the company. It takes a special person to ride one a lot, and those riders are looked upon with awe by the rest of us. I think that the V can continue to command the same price differential if the weight can come down further and/or if the bike is more aero. Cruzbike already has a winning geometry locked in, and instant name recognition, so it seems to me that future R&D efforts could focus on making it even faster. Go with more exotic materials, run more wind tunnel tests, and keep the bike legal, to the extent possible, for various bike racing events. The pricing should continue to reflect that it is a hard-core racing machine along with all that R&D (lots of good comments above). You need to keep making an effort with the V, because it's the V that is selling (and doing the marketing for) the S.

On the other hand, I don't see myself ever buying a V, even if it were the same price or cheaper than the S. I'm going with an S as soon as I can afford it--I can't wait! In the mean time, I'll continue to commute on my mountain bike conversion, cheering loudly for every every Cruzbike victory.

 

[Eric Winn]

Hi John,

Interesting question but if I were Cruzbike's marketing manager I'd have a lot more background and knowledge of other things Cruzbike to be able to respond better but I'll wing it.

Since you released the Silvio 2.x the "Silvio build" threads and "I bought a Silvio" threads have jumped dramatically - and maybe some "I kind of want a Silvio but I'm going to build a conversion first to make sure before I buy a Silvio" threads. Additionally, with the introduction of the Silvio v2 you managed to tilt some of the strong doubters of the Cruzbike MBB strengths into actually buying, building, and riding instead of just nay saying. Shortly accompanied by some rather succinct "I was wrong about Cruzbike MBB" confessions.

I haven't seen the same of the Vendetta other than maybe a brief spike when the new hydroformed frame was first introduced and before the first glimpses of the version 2 Silvio HF started to appear. Also, Nanda posts photos to Flickr of customer builds but the impression I have is mostly Silvio. No idea what Vite bikes or other dealers have been doing regarding sales volumes.

Most of the buyers of either Silvio or Vendetta that I am aware of seem to be older, likely with more money to spend than younger folks or they have less expenses for other things than younger folks. For these, I'd guess the price difference is not a really a significant financial issue but one more of choosing between comfort, utility, all around riding fun, speed, performance, etc.

Personally what I'd like to really see happen is a lot of young folks like Jacquie Schlitter's daughter and people in their teens and twenties starting competing on Vendettas and Silvios to see what some young, serious racers can do with the Cruzbike platform.

I would surmise most of us older folks (with a few exceptions) are not as interested in racing or at least formal racing but still like the idea of a fast bike but may be leery of a purpose built race bike. This would suggest more Silvio sales and fewer Vendetta sales. Probably even more so now that the frame and ride recline are a lot more similar. Why spend $710 more for a Vendetta if a Silvio can end up looking more like a black Vendetta with suspension? Ivan's bike as a particular example.

As you know, I was originally shopping for a Silvio but what drew me to the Vendetta is the fact that at the time it was strikingly different from the then Silvio v1.x and just flat out looked way faster and I seem to like riding fast and going far. A 45 degree recline vs a 20 degree recline. A much bigger boom and slider assembly with the contrasting colors accentuating the lines. Cleaner and sleeker lines than the old Silvio. If I was just coming to Cruzbike now the distinctive difference isn't really there anymore - especially after seeing photos of Ivan's bike looking very Vendetta-like and even more so with the recent photos of him in his Tropical Century.

So in essence you seem to have outdone yourself with the new Silvio and stolen some of the Vendetta's thunder.

I'm kind of with Bob in some ways. Continue with your skunk works. Use the Vendetta to keep pushing the boundaries. Make it roar again (or perhaps it's successor).

Get the front-end much lighter somehow. Scrap the current seat and headrest and create something new using real carbon fiber and follow the cues of the CARBONTRIKES seat but even more clever and unique to the Vendetta. Think of Maria's different riding posture along different types of terrain during RAAM - can you make a seat system that could be adjusted either on-the-fly or very, very easily for different conditions?

Include the option for at least two different aero carbon fiber trunks - one for the randonneuring crowd and a smaller one for racers. Integrate rear lighting. Make sure it looks something like the Zockra trunk in fit and finish quality.

Integrate Di2 wiring and power supply into the handlebars and frame, perhaps along with hydraulic brakes. Think of what you could do different with handlebar shape and position and molded in Di2 controls.

Heck, get with Dirk Strothmann of Magnic Lights and integrate dual front headlights and dual rear taillights into the next Vendetta frame. If the darn things really work as well as it looks, no more fiddling with batteries ever again. Integrate controls for the lights into the handlebars similar to Di2 so you can control the lights as easily as the shifting. Make sure the taillights function as brake lights when you hit your brakes.

Build an iPhone/Garmin/Smartphone receptacle into the frame such that it plugs into an additional replaceable battery inside the frame (or account for wiring from a dynamo hub) so that you can power continuously for at least 24 hours, protect the phone from water, weather, shock, etc and doesn't block GPS or cellular signals. Or along these lines partner with Wahoo or someone and integrate Smart Bluetooth speed sensors directly into the bike. I was constantly knocking my SC sensor askew...

Along the lines of your bullhorns, consider some other custom cockpit configurations for the Vendetta - how about this Zockra cockpit for some ideas? Except go entirely clean sheet and toss out current art to create something new that works better for recumbents that isn't just a transplant from the DF world. Yeah, people probably want to re-use their current bits and existing tech but then you aren't pushing the boundaries and trying to find a better way to go faster with more power and greater comfort.

All that said, I love my Vendetta. It is wicked fast and sooo much fun to ride. I did 100 miles at 2013 Bike Sebring on your Cuzbike Quest in 7:19:06 total (6:45:28 moving, 0:38:20 stopped). A year later, on my Vendetta I did that same 100.0 miles in 5:33:57 total (5:24:21 moving, 0:09:36 stopped) and this 100 miles was at a 24 hour pace. Now I'm curious how low I can get my 100 mile time. Pretty darn good for a 55 year old, eh? Some of that is me working for it but a lot is the Vendetta, my hat is off to you.

Contradictorily, I'm also intrigued by a different tangent. I'm curious if you could get the current Vendetta price low enough to attract the teenagers and 20+ crowd into trying recumbent racing. Maybe some sort of sponsorship. As I mentioned further above, I'd love to see more young people kicking butt on these things. I'm not really sure if a low price would make a difference, I'm finding racing is actually a lot more expensive than the bike - at least if you are traveling a good ways to race. But boy would I love to see an ever larger and larger group of young people getting into these things.


-Eric

 

[KiwiGuy]

Additional thoughts

Hi John

I endorse much of what Eric, Jim and Ratz have to say.

As I've previously mentioned to you, I think that a three-model strategy is a potentially good option for Cruzbike - and a well proven business model.

You can run this strategy off your hydro-formed frame. The mid-model is the bike you want to sell the most of - and clearly that is the Silvio. You've certainly made a big impact with the updated Silvio. It's an impressive bike.

With this three-model strategy, the top model is the bike for people who want high-performance and/or the best available. That definitely is the Vendetta. However as others have commented, it is starting to look less special because you've made such a wonderful job of the Silvio. The Vendetta needs to be 11-speed, wired for Di2, reduced in weight - perhaps with some carbon-aluminium blended tubes as Ratz suggests. Although the observation may be unfair, I'm left with the feeling that the best handle-bar set-up hasn't yet been completely nailed (otherwise people like Ratz wouldn't be off doing such interesting experiments).

The final element with this strategy is having a low-end model. This is for people who always want the cheapest version, or who are looking for an entry level Cruzbike. Basically a Silvio without suspension and a more up-right seat angle would do the trick.

Now to come back to your original question. If you choose a three-model strategy for Cruzbike, then I have no problem at all with the price differential between the Silvio and the Vendetta. In fact it is a crucial element of that strategy. The only problem I think you have at the moment (unfortunately) is that you have made such a compelling job of the Silvio that the Vendetta is not looking as super, top-end, and fully-sorted as it needs to be for the price you are asking. I know that is an unfair statement in many ways, because the Vendetta is hell of a machine and I have no doubt that you've put serious amounts of time, effort and expenditure into it's development.

Hope this helps...

 

[Ivan]

Some really good comments

Some really good comments from a loyal fan base, which shows how much we appreciate John asking in the first place. I agree with all these comments that R&D be done on Vendetta which should command a premium price. The S2 really made a huge splash and the buzz on the forum and the buying buzz really shows that. Like Eric, I was contemplating a V when the choice was Silvio 1.5 vs Vendetta, but clearly I and many others went to Silvio 2. It flexibly caters to range middle aged (like Eric was saying) and to the almost middle-aged like me (hey, I just turned 39!). The reason Silvio 2 is so good is the trickle down tech from Vendetta, so keep Vendetta development coming! Eric and Jimbo have so many good ideas on this. Di2 integrated, 11-speed, and tailbox for example. Just the Di2 and 11 speed would more than justify increased price as not many people would take drill and dremel to their Silvios like Mauler/Roy! It's not that Vendetta is not worth it - it's that the Silvio 2 is so darn good!!

As as to the sales section, I really agree with Shahmatt that more needs to be done there to explain the difference. One has to read the forum for weeks if not months to really understand the bikes. For example, it is not clear that the expensive bullhorns INCLUDE the custom shifters, which justifies the high price for the handlebars, and that it is an option for Silvio 2 as well. Another example is that I released my pictures to Cruzbike of which some are used on the product page but definitely not to maximum effect. Then again, you have no shortage of Silvio 2 sales right?

Kudos to John and the whole team again for incredible design of Vendetta and Silvio and the trickle down of innovative technology intelligently applied. I have been following Cruzbike since Maria's record on Silvio, and now am a proud owner of a Silvio 2 - which, as Eric correctly noted, has it's setup inspired by Maria's subsequent records and pictures on Vendetta.

 

[Shahmatt]

Improve the presentation

This sounds like the situation Microsoft was faced with when trying to get computer users to buy the new Vista and Windows 7. Users of Windows were just too comfortable with XP, and reluctant to upgrade to the newer version. Microsoft's strongest competition was in effect itself.

I do not think that the prices of the bikes are a problem. The Vendetta is priced higher. It is faster. It is the premium bike. Most buyers will understand that. Most buyers will not question the technicals. Who can really? Except those who are in the business of manufacturing these things and bike geeks like us! Most buyers will take it for granted that it's worth the money.

Unfortunately I have always felt that this website does a rather poor job at explaining in simple terms what the Vendetta is, what the SIlvio is, and what the other bikes are. Hitherto I never looked at the Vendetta or Silvio's descriptions carefully. I took a careful look right now, and I'm sorry to say, the Vendetta's presentation is quite horrid.

For example there is no proper photograph of the bike in it's full glory, only snippets of the front and back, and a side on elevation view of what looks like a technical drawing. The first image even looks a bit out of focus or taken with too narrow a depth of field. Go to the Silvio page and the first image you see is the whole Silvio bike - much better, indeed the general array of images is much better. For the Vendetta I am sure that each image means something technically important but for initial presentation it may just be too much.

I know that some description text is given, but buyers want to see images. As Charles repeatedly insists, photos are the best way to communicate ideas. More images are necessary. But these images have also got to be the "big picture" to start.

Furthermore the information under "Specifications" between the bikes is just not easy to compare and nigh impossible. The various items fall under different sub categories between the bike pages. For example under Silvio, weight falls under the main category of Specifications, whereas under Vendetta it is under Components. There is no easy comparison.

With the bikes presented as they are it is no surprise to me that the Silvio gets more attention. Unfortunately it may be quite difficult to reverse this trend as the forum has too many Silvio users who will reaffirm the bike's capability to potential buyers and encourage even more sales of this bike.

In short, I believe that the webpage needs to be revamped. Get a marketing man or webpage designer to look at it. More images, shorter succinct descriptions, information comparisons to be more easily done, detailed stuff for the geeks to be presented in other places.

Apologies if I've offended anyone in my perhaps overly critical review.

 

[bladderhead]

Shahmatt says the Vendetta is

Shahmatt says the Vendetta is presented really badly. Just give Ivan a Ven, and let him get on with it.

 

[igolfat8]

I would love to own a Silvio

I would love to own a Silvio but unfortunately it is priced well beyond my budget. I ride a Volae Club and I find it confusing why the price point of the Silvio is nearly double of the Volae. I realize its not a fair apples to apples comparison and mean no disrespect to John and the unique engineering that has gone into his designs.

Since component packages are no longer available for the Silvio, I would like to see a DETAILED list of components required to finish the bike. Keep in mind that some of us {well me for example} don't work in a bike shop nor have the working hands on knowledge of what else is required to complete the bike.

 

[Gromit]

Quest 559?

igolfat8
Don't discount the Quest 559. Its a great bike too. I own one.

BROL Review (below)
http://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=5420

 

[Eric Winn]

Volae Club vs Silvio

Hi Tim,

It looks like a Volae Club was $2095 new as a complete 9-speed dual 26 inch (650c) wheel non-suspended bike.

The Silvio is a $2190 frameset for a 10 speed dual 29 inch (700c) wheel full suspension bike plus the cost of whatever groupset and wheels you want to use.

Obviously, the finished cost of a Silvio can vary dramatically depending on what kind of groupset, wheels and tires you put on it.

A complete goupset of a similar quality to the Volae can be had for about $400 to $550, Cruzbike wheels for $345, tires and tubes about $100 so a total of around $3035. If you are willing to dig more you can get this same stuff a bit cheaper.

So in just a dollar amount you are talking $940 more for a new Silvio in my example, nowhere near double and you are talking two entirely different bikes: dual 650c, 9-speed non-suspended VS dual 700c 10-speed full suspension.

You could go into a bit more detail of the comparison and point out that the Volae is running 650c partly to keep the seat height and COG down lower. With that type of frame, using 700c wheels will tend to raise the seat height up significantly if you could fit 700c. As it is, with dual 650c wheels and with the two seat options you are looking at a 26 inch or 28.5 inch seat height. The Silvio's seat height with dual 700c wheels is 21.5 inches or a whopping 4.5inches lower than your Volae Club at it's lowest. If you are using the mesh seat the difference is huge at 7 inches. I'm short, with a 28 inch inseam. Fully seated in my Vendetta, I can put both feet flat on the ground. Note the Vendetta seat height is a little bit lower than the Silvio at 19.625 inches.

Another aspect of 700c is there are a lot more wheel and tire choices available on the market.

A somewhat more like-to-like comparison would be the Volae Club at $2190 compared to the Cruzbike Quest at $1995. I think the Quest offers more bike for a lower price but you may disagree.

And don't forget - you also get the designer and owners responding directly to their customers via this website, forum, email, and telephone. Volae doesn't even have their own website anymore and is sold exclusively through the Hostel Shoppe (also well known for their excellent customer support).

Does that help?

-Eric

 

[Jeremy S]

Getting off topic, but I have

Getting off topic, but I have to agree with Rizwan/Shahmatt about the product photos (and his other comments on the product pages as well). The emphasis on detail shots has had me scratching my head for a while. That includes some of Ivan's Silvio photos where he did the FD cable routing in a nonstandard way, which will only confuse people building up their bikes (sorry Ivan). When I was looking to buy, all I wanted to see were nice wide shots of the bikes.

 

[KiwiGuy]

Additional comments - Volae Club vs Silvio

As a current owner of a Volae Club (2005 model, but nothing much seems to have changed over the years), I can add some perspective on this issue.

#1. The Club is a steel framed bike with no triangulation of the bottom bracket. This means that it is heavy (13.5 kg for my bike with pedals, seat pad and two bottle cages), and the boom deflects measurably under power. The end result is that it climbs like a dog (actually a snail).

#2. The new Unique Selling Proposition for Cruzbike posted on the front page of this site is: "Recumbents that climb fast". Enough said.

#3. The Club still comes with a 9-speed set-up. What modern bike comes with this? I've upgraded to 10-speed on my Club and ended up with much better gearing.

#4. The Club come with 650c wheels for the reasons that Eric has outlined. 650c wheels have observably higher rolling resistance than 700c wheels. When I'm riding with my df buddies (all on 700c) - when we hit any form of rough chip road I slowly but surely start going backwards.

#5. You can reduce rolling resistance further on 700c wheels by going wider (23mm to 25mm wide wheels) and tubeless. There are far fewer options available in 650c.

Summary:
The Volae Club is a 1st generation high-racer (stick frame built in steel with 650c wheels) which was fantastic in it's day (the early to mid 2000's). Unfortunately Volae hasn't kept up IMHO.

The Cruzbike Silvio is a 3rd generation high-racer (Z-frame built in alloy or carbon with 700c wheels). It's a modern bike that delivers higher performance that the earlier 1st generation models.

My Volae Club has carried me many miles and brought me a lot of joy. But it's now out-dated.

Kind regards...