reading the tea leaves

[Charles.Plager]

What Charles is really trying

What Charles is really trying to say is, the conversion kit or the V2k needs a FORK.... [smiley] and poof conversion kits sell at 2x the current rate.

This.

Except, of course, I want a suspended fork for both 20" wheels as well as 650/700 wheels and I have a feeling John's gonna tell me I'm SOL, so while I'd love the fork, I'd rather keep it as it is instead of getting rid of it.

When Cruzbike becomes really big, you'll be able to do exactly that. Sell kits with different size/quality suspension forks. I'd love an air-suspended fork for my folder.

 

[1happyreader]

Marketing and current prices.

Marketing and current prices.

Cruzbike price structure seems fair.

At first glance you do not see the prestige / value / cost of owning the top two entries.
Do we need to see a stock: $4,500 Vendetta $3,600 Silvio to improve public perception ??

(soooo NOT talking about sales or manufacturing or packing issues here )

Personally
Would like a frameset entry placed between the Sofrider and the conversions.
No grupo, handlebars,wheels ( would need fork included )
?? 800 - 900 for a Quest type frame
?? 600 - 700 for a V2/K

 

[igolfat8]

Hmm, great idea "?Get

Hmm, great idea "?Get a review unit to Bentrider some how; having a 3rd party review matters."

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hmm, great idea "?Get

Hmm, great idea "?Get a review unit to Bentrider some how; having a 3rd party review matters."

I don't know how true that is.

The Sofrider and Quest were reviewed by Bryan and Larry at BROL. The reviews were fairly positive and I don't think it resolved many issues for people.

Second, there are many riders of Cruzbikes who are seasoned recumbent riders. I think their reviews on BROL have helped and in some sense limit what morea glowiing review from Bryan/Larry would be.

Finally, I think Maria's RAAM performance helped a lot of people decide to try it.

I don't have any issue with getting a review bike over to BROL folks, but I don't know how much of a difference it's really going to make.

 

[hurri47]

conversion kit trainer

To rephrase Charles slightly, low price is only half the attraction of conversions. There is also their utility as low-cost trainers for all MBB Cruzbikes for the slow learners among us. As a financially-challenged person, I would never never have considered a higher-end Cruzbike - even a Sofrider - without the positive experience I gained on my conversion.

Without the conversion, your customers are limited to the wealthy and the brave. With it, you can sell Silvios to the show-me folks like myself.

-Dan

 

[Jeremy S]

I would not have

I would not have considered putting the money into a Silvio without first buying and learning on a Sofrider. Not all of us are prepared to build up a conversion kit (and not all conversions perform well since they lack John's design refinements). I think dropping the "cheap" Cruzbike models would be a mistake. I also think my Sofrider climbed better than its weight would suggest.

 

[ratz]

Outside the box

Ok this one is out there and a tangent; but since John lit the grenade in the room I'll go with it.

Create an evangelist network. To Jeremy's point test rides are key. So allow established owners that are in attractive Geographic Zones to enter an agreement to buy a 2nd bike either a Softrider or Quest at cost with an agreement to not disclose that cost, and to place for them a list for at least 3 years; where they agree to host people to do test rides of the bikes and offer brief training. People would apply to join the program and be approved based on whatever criteria you specify.

Because my build has been highly published on BROL; I have 4 locals that have requested to come over; look at the bike, sit on it, and a least fred flinstone it to see what it's like. I have happily agreed because I would have kill for that option last year; and someone let me do that on a Quest at the Midwest Recumbent rally.

If there was an online database of people to test ride bikes in your area; prospective customer might avail themselves; and you get an extend sales force of passionate users.

Better yet if those test rides are bike shop based but the recumbent shop are no where near the density required.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Bob,
In principle, this is

Hi Bob,

In principle, this is similar to what you get with 'Find a rider' option (which, somewhat ironically, I can no longer find on the Cruzbike page).

Personally, I'd just let people go for a test ride (but then, I have cheaper bikes).

So: Yes, we need to fix the "find a local" and I think an even more aggressive plan such as yours isn't a bad idea at all.

Cheers,
Charles

p.s. I wonder how badly John is wishing he hadn't started this thread.

 

[Jeremy S]

p.s.  I wonder how badly John

p.s. I wonder how badly John is wishing he hadn't started this thread.

Ha.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Oh, not at all would I wish

Oh, not at all would I wish this thread away.

There is a lot of useful commentary. And some commentary that is useful if one could have free development cost and a magic wand for logistical production problems - to be expected as you didn't all visit Taiwan with me. Next time eh?

By posing a question in the topic concerning two of our models, I implied that our line up was divided. One end is performance and the other is more utility/commute. This creates huge problems in how we tell the story, because there is no way of telling the story that is strong for both market segments. Our in-house language is to talk of the HF family - the bikes using the Hydroform tube - as the performance end.

What does the model label and brand mean? We are hamstrung by the breadth of what it means. To some it is a magical kit that creates a great town bike from a piece-a-junk mountain bike. To others it is a performance machine capable of winning records in the world's toughest long distance bike race (RAAM). Yes to others it is a out of the box town bike. The web site reflects both these ideas, but they work against each other, so we don't get the clear understanding from our website visitors of what we really are to THEM. Read this thread and you can quickly see what I mean. We can't discuss the HF family without discourse into the utility bikes. That diversion is a pattern throughout our website and tarnishes the clarity of the brand that we might project.

To my mind, they are all cruzbike, they are all valid outcomes of a different model of how to ride a bike. So I think they can all carry the cruzbike label. That would leave open the idea of a high performance 'division' of the company reflected in a set of high performance bikes. The iconic value of the HF platform puts this in our hands.

That is the background. How to price the HF models? We'll make our decisions soon.

 

[Rampa]

HF is a very strong selling point.

I think all Cruzbikes (not the kit) could share the HF maintube, as the Silvio and Vendetta do. Then you have 2 taglines that other recumbent companies don't. "The only recumbent that climbs as well as a DF", and "The only recumbent with a hydro-formed frame". Basically, agreeing with Nanda. The whole line should be sexy!

 

[BBL]

Product Differentiation and Focus

All this has become an interesting read. Although I should be spending the time marketing my own company's wares, I can't resist putting in my two cents. I'll address this from the perspective of Mr. Marketing Manager.

When you chose to introduce Silvio 2 (aggressively reclined seat), I believe you made a strategic marketing mistake, if profitability and selling bicycles is your goal. You eliminated or at least blurred the differentiation between Silvio and Vendetta. Now, Silvio is almost a Vendetta but with more features. It has become Vendetta's toughest competitor in the market place.

So as marketing manager, I would recommend reestablishing clear differentiation between your products. I would inch the price point up on Silvio as the market will bear and hold the price on Vendetta for now. Product development on Silvio would focus on better integrated storage features and serve to justify the increased price; maybe consider backing off a little on the aggressive seat angle. On Vendetta I would make incremental changes focused on performance, the more visually apparent the better. I would NOT introduce anything like a shock isolation feature on Vendetta - only weight reduction and speed would be considered. The idea would be to focus on fast for the Vendetta and road touring for Silvio. Try to provide riders a compelling reason to own one of each.

I have recently (this March) completed a ride from St. Augustine to Key West, Florida on my Silvio 2. So many people ask about the bike. Some even stop their cars to get a closer look. I tell them about Cruzbike, Maria Parker's RAAM win & world records, and your website. Sometimes I wish I had some Cruzbike cards to hand out.

 

[Charles.Plager]

I'm a little leary of the

I'm a little leary of the "only recumbent that is hydroformed as that could change as any day.

"Climbs like a bat outta hell" will be as true tomorrow as today.

I'm not saying not to use the first, but prepared to change 'only' to 'first' (which is less impressive)

 

[MrSteve]

Carbon Fibre Has its Place

-but don't discount the beauty, the utility, the performance, the dependability
and the affordability of, say, aluminum.

Aluminum was once worth more than gold!

Now, remember the big flap on this forum about seat adjustability?
Here you are, asking for a plastic composite, hand-laid up piece of
sculpture which may or may not be somebody's idea of a perfectly fitting seat.
One-piece carbon seats are expensive!
And it will not fit, perfectly fit, many riders.
At least the current seats, being two-piece, are a little adjustable.

Allright now, introductory rant over!

Italian design tends to be beautiful, passionate and even functional.
You may be thinking, "Ferrari"
but I'm thinking, "Ducati"... and Slyway recumbents.

This three-piece aluminum seat pan, mounted atop a Slyway stickbike, is very adjustable and, to me, looks very functional.
I'm sure it's expensive to tool up for and produce,
but look: look at what is possible!

One-piece carbon/plastic composite seats have their uses:
-racing and custom-fitted one-off seats.

-Steve

 

[BentBierz]

I have little new to add

I have little new to add other than to throw my vote behind some of the things already mentioned. Here is my list:

- Both Vendetta and Silvio bikes are fast...no problem with that. However, you can have race-fast and touring/commuting/charity ride-fast with Vendetta being the former and Silvio being the later. To do this, as already mentioned, the Silvio needs to be able to more easily carry more than just a rider and a water bottle.

- And about that water bottle: water is a necessity to ride yet it doesn't seem that everyone is enamored with the current methods of locating a bottle rack.

- The seat: There are already existing seats out there that those with other recumbents have determined work for them. I would set up the Silvio (can't speak for Vendetta having never even seen one) to be able to use the vast majority of these so that those with other recumbents have the chance to use a seat their familiar with. For those purchasing a Cruzbike as their first foray into the recumbent world, there would be a wealth of knowledge here and on BROL regarding seats that, through natural selection, had made the top five list for Silvio adaptability. Cruzbike is doing some cutting edge stuff...let those that have been making seats for along time be your supplier so you can focus on stuff no other builder is doing.

- Seat Adjustability: There should be a reasonable range adjustment method that is slick and quick. If I was selling these bikes I would have the seat adjusted at its highest setting so that a potential buyer could get on it and think, "This isn't too bad; I think I could do this." If you get someone who says they were looking for something with more recline, no problem, swish-boom-bang, the seat is dropped to its lowest level.

- 135mm front fork: Lets get beyond the notion that everyone looking at a Silvio (or who has already bought one) only wants rim brakes and a 130mm road hub and accept that a lot of people like disc brakes. All the major manufacturers (Chris King, DT Swiss, Hope, et al) make 135mm disc brake hubs. I for one would have already been running my Rohloff if the fork was 135mm. Once again, this would ID the Silvio as a touring bike but still be a very fast set-up. For those in doubt, my Ti-Rush with a Rohloff moves out pretty quickly...a little may be sacrificed in speed but nothing that anyone other than the go-fast folks here would be concerned about. Provide an upgrade path for the new fork for those with 2.0s/2.1s that want to go to 135mm.

- This might be a bridge too far but I don't think so...give a little more room so that people can run bigger tires and fenders. Go-fast bikes are allowed to serve a utilitarian purpose as well.

- More cable stops for those that choose to run disc brakes...I hate paying good money and then have to use zip ties to hold things in place...looks amateurish.

- Develop YouTube videos for assembling the bikes.

BTW, thanks for asking for our opinions. I think we might have gone well beyond what you were asking for but it feels good being part of some potential solutions to some already great bikes.

 

[Eric Winn]

But first, please scrap the

But first, please scrap the current seat and headrest and create something new using real carbon fiber (or other suitable material)...

http://www.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4385

PS - Would love to visit Taiwan with you.

-Eric

Edited to agree with Steve. I see a LOT of adjustability in that Slyway seat but needs some of John's ergonomic tweaks.

 

[KiwiGuy]

An interesting challenge

It is going to be an interesting challenge to gather both the 'utility' division and 'performance' division under the one brand of 'Cruzbike'. The difficulty of course is establishing a unique selling proposition/overt benefit that can span both. John's already alluded to this difficulty.

You are in a better position than many companies which have tried this approach. MBB FWD is uncommon, and of course John's patent is unique. But how to translate these technical features into an overt customer benefit that spans both the utility bikes and the performance bikes is not that easy. It is easy if 'Cruzbike' is only the 'performance' division - the USP "Recumbents that climb fast" is a compelling overt benefit. I want one of those!! But I don't think you can believably apply that USP to a brand that also sells utility bikes.

If we take a look at well established companies who gather several things under one brand, we notice that the umbrella brand is often de-emphasised by consumers and the model brand is emphasised. After all what do a Fiesta, Mondeo, Mustang and F150 have as a common USP? Nothing. Their commonality is that they are brands of Ford, each targeting a different customer segment. When the Ford Mustang finally arrives for sale in New Zealand and I'm driving one, I won't be telling people I drive a Ford. I'll be telling them I drive a Mustang. This is a key point - the umbrella brand is de-emphasised when it means several things and the model brand is emphasised. Ask a devoted Porscheophile what they drive and I guarantee they won't say a Porsche - they'll say a '911' (what's a Porsche these days? A V6 diesel engined two tonne SUV/sportscar)

There are good examples of companies that have succeeded well at this approach. GM in the first 30 years of its existence for example (though in the last 30 years it's shown us how not to do it). Specialized is a good modern example of a bike brand which has done this successfully.

Notice, however, that in both cases virtually no-one can tell you what the umbrella brand means - what's a GM? What's a Specialized? (they are my favourite df brand - and the best I can come up with is that they are a bike company that does a lot of R&D)

In both cases they prospered because they paid a lot of attention to producing distinctively different models/brands for different target markets - and then built a USP for each brand. For example, with Specialized they have the Tarmac (road race), the Roubaix (road endurance), the Epic (XC race) and the Stumpjumper (cross-country) amongst many others.

Taking this lumping it all together approach means that each of the Cruzbike brands needs to be distinctively different from each other. As BBL says, this approach doesn't allow you to have two bikes so similar as the Silvio and the Vendetta. They have to target distinctly different markets.

Is including the utility bikes and the performance bikes under the one brand the right approach? Personally I don't think so. It would be much easier and more effective to market the utility bikes under a separate brand IMHO. But it's not my business. Whatever the shareholders of of Cruzbike choose to do, I'm looking forward to the continuing evolution of Cruzbike and it's bikes.

 

[Jeremy S]

Whatever you do, don't drop

Whatever you do, don't drop the conversion kit. Seriously, just don't do it.

Well Charles, they dared do it.

 

[John Tolhurst]

The conversion kit is a

The conversion kit is a research platform. It taught us a lot, but we haven't learnt much if anything over the last two or three years. On the other hand, we do see bike shops who resent us because someone presents them with a conversion bike that has not been executed well. They blame the company. We spend valuable time counseling and advising, for no commercial advantage. But there is still a good amount of stock. Get in if you are a tinkerer and buy one to put aside.

We believe the kit option gives the impression that we are not actually confident of the product. In fact the opposite is the case. So terminating the kit product is a step we think is necessary for us to be seen as mainstream.

 

[bladderhead]

Me and BentBierz, we are

Me and BentBierz, we are similar. We both wanted Rohloff, neither of us could do it, and we both wish the Silvio had a 135 fork.

You could do two versions. I guess the market is not big enough to warrant that.