Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[Osiris]

By the way, if you don't 'consciously' scrape and push, it does not mean that you don't at all. You physically cannot hit very high RPMs without seriously round pedal stroke! Wattbike 'figures of eight' of track sprinters show that.

I don't mean to discount the possibility that I'm "scraping" at all, just that if I'm doing it, the effect is so slight compared to pedaling a bent that I'm not even aware of it. Pulling up on the pedals is a more contentious subject. Most people assume that this is what top competitors do, else there would be no need for pedals that you clip into. But I recall reading the results of tests performed on pro cyclists showing that in fact, they don't pull up on the return stroke except at very slow cadences. This makes sense because there there is a huge imbalance between the force that can be imparted to the pedals by pushing down on them and pulling up on them. There are three large muscle groups (quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes) used to push down on the pedals, but there are only two individual muscles (rectus femoris & psoas) that are capable of pulling the pedal back. This means that at high cadence, the large muscle groups hammering down on the pedals as hard as they can "outpace" the muscles used to pull the pedals back up, so the pulling muscles are not able to contribute much, if anything, to the pedal stroke.

As for cadence difference of DF vs bent, that's totally not uncommon - I've read reports by streamliner pilots at BM that complained about the very same thing. I don't have a cadence meter (I guess I should get one, bit cheaper than power meter ), but it certainly seems same way as well for me.
That's strange indeed because orientation against gravity should not matter much - both of your legs are attached to cranks, so one leg going up and 'counterbalanced' by any other leg going down, but is likely more complex than that...

I'm equally mystified as to why this should be the case. If you have the same length cranks on both the DF and bent, then the degree of movement at the hip joint when pedaling will be exactly the same for both. And obviously the same muscle groups are used in both cases. So why should we be able to turn the pedals on a DF so much faster? It would be interesting to build a "pedal machine" that could tilt forward and back. Then I could see if merely tilting the machine all the way forward, as if I were riding a DF, speeds up my cadence, and vice versa.

 

[RojoRacing]

I don't mean to discount the possibility that I'm "scraping" at all, just that if I'm doing it, the effect is so slight compared to pedaling a bent that I'm not even aware of it. Pulling up on the pedals is a more contentious subject. Most people assume that this is what top competitors do, else there would be no need for pedals that you clip into. But I recall reading the results of tests performed on pro cyclists showing that in fact, they don't pull up on the return stroke except at very slow cadences. This makes sense because there there is a huge imbalance between the force that can be imparted to the pedals by pushing down on them and pulling up on them. There are three large muscle groups (quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes) used to push down on the pedals, but there are only two individual muscles (rectus femoris & psoas) that are capable of pulling the pedal back. This means that at high cadence, the large muscle groups hammering down on the pedals as hard as they can "outpace" the muscles used to pull the pedals back up, so the pulling muscles are not able to contribute much, if anything, to the pedal stroke.


If you have the same length cranks on both the DF and bent, then the degree of movement at the hip joint when pedaling will be exactly the same for both. And obviously the same muscle groups are used in both cases. So why should we be able to turn the pedals on a DF so much faster? It would be interesting to build a "pedal machine" that could tilt forward and back. Then I could see if merely tilting the machine all the way forward, as if I were riding a DF, speeds up my cadence, and vice versa.

Greater DF cadence could be the result of the DF rider feeling more free to move around with only the single seat focused contact point because when you're pedaling that fast you tend to move around more then just your legs. On a bent your contacting so much more to the long seat that you're in a sense locked in and are forced to focus on most leg movement.

Like most things all this could be easily proven wrong with specific efforts to train the body. Why anyone is all that concern about pedaling over 130rpms on any bike other than a track bike seems like mute point.

 

[Osiris]

Like most things all this could be easily proven wrong with specific efforts to train the body. Why anyone is all that concern about pedaling over 130rpms on any bike other than a track bike seems like mute point.

Winning Strava KOM's is what matters most in life, and for those short segment sprints, spinning as fast as you can makes all the difference.

 

[Balor]

Like most things all this could be easily proven wrong with specific efforts to train the body.

Well, Freddy Markham was plenty fast on a bent (and RWD, LWB one to boot - I doubt anyone can replicate his accomplishments on Vendetta right now) - but as much as I understand he Olympic-level athlete.
Would he be faster on a Vendetta than on as "socked" Javelin?

I mean, sheesh:
http://recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1410

35 mph 1km STANDING START time trial! On a frame that was noted for being very 'bouncy' under power! How much power did he poured out over that minute?
Given that, Heine's "planing" theories seem much more likely to work for a bent as well...

P.S.
UCI kilo times look kinda depressing in comparisons...

 

[ed72]

Well, Freddy Markham was plenty fast on a bent (and RWD, LWB one to boot - I doubt anyone can replicate his accomplishments on Vendetta right now) - but as much as I understand he Olympic-level athlete.
Would he be faster on a Vendetta than on as "socked" Javelin?

I mean, sheesh:
http://recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1410

35 mph 1km STANDING START time trial! On a frame that was noted for being very 'bouncy' under power! How much power did he poured out over that minute?
Given that, Heine's "planing" theories seem much more likely to work for a bent as well...

P.S.
UCI kilo times look kinda depressing in comparisons...

I'd guess 54,000 Kilo Joules. W' or HIE at such a level is quite high. I'm only 16 kJ on the bent but was 27-28 kJ on an upright and could hit 38-39 mph in sprint coming off someones wheel....LOL. 54,000 divided by 60 seconds (Joule is watts per second....if memory is right) is about 900 watts average but average doesn't tell the story, he probably did 800-900 watts at the very end but somewhere in the 1500-2000 range at the start. Could be more but my guess is probably ballpark

 

[Gary123]

I'll bet rojo takes plenty of koms at 130 cadence.

 

[RojoRacing]

I'll bet rojo takes plenty of koms at 130 cadence.

Rojo's specialty is taking KOMs with zero cadence :lol

There was one of those end of the year show off you strava stats plug in video uploaders several years ago that listed the number of KOMs you gained that year and what % of them were climbing, flat or DH. I want to say my DH KOM's eclipse the other two at something like over 85% of my total KOM's being DH ones. This was long before I ever got my V20 though.

 

[Balor]

Talking of bracing. I've been researching tensegrity structures and found this on bentrider:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showpost.php?p=308994&postcount=9

While it seems more mystical than scientific in nature, it did hook me, as well as biomechanical implications.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236146619_Tensegrity-_The_New_Biomechanics

At might be least a piece of puzzle to file away for future use. In fact, I've been actually contemplating use of (heavily reclined, more of a hammock) mesh seat in combination with shoulder boosters already, that makes me try that even more.

 

[ed72]

Talking of bracing. I've been researching tensegrity structures and found this on bentrider:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showpost.php?p=308994&postcount=9

While it seems more mystical than scientific in nature, it did hook me, as well as biomechanical implications.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236146619_Tensegrity-_The_New_Biomechanics

At might be least a piece of puzzle to file away for future use. In fact, I've been actually contemplating use of (heavily reclined, more of a hammock) mesh seat in combination with shoulder boosters already, that makes me try that even more.

""Besides the observation that this integrated use of the body provides a fundamental part of the power (cfr. martial arts), activating the upper body allows a larger part of the body to process lactic acid and other waste from the legs (cfr. uprights)""

The upper body does not process lactic acid from the legs nor would I consider it waste, lactate is fuel when fit.

What the poster is experiencing is less restriction to breathing and better exchange in the lungs but as you know, I am convinced that the seat and how one supports the torso is a key factor in the "bent legs" phenomenon.

Bridging tense the abdominals inhibiting breathing......check out Steve Hogg's test for this about half way into the following blog post. Addiionally, take some deep breaths while lounging on the sofa. Notice the expansion in three dimensions and the rising of the shoulders. Why give up that lung volume on a bent by restricting the shoulders?

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.co...s-you-may-not-have-known-about-bike-position/

 

[ed72]

Does anyone know what percentage of extra power you get on a V20 or other front wheel drive bent when hammering up say a 3-5 minute climb? I am guessing the pulling and use of the upper body is worth 15-20% over rwd with gunnar bars.

 

[Balor]

The upper body does not process lactic acid from the legs nor would I consider it waste, lactate is fuel when fit.

Actually, it does.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_shuttle_hypothesis

Lot's of data on it.

Bridging tense the abdominals inhibiting breathing......check out Steve Hogg's test for this about half way into the following blog post. Addiionally, take some deep breaths while lounging on the sofa. Notice the expansion in three dimensions and the rising of the shoulders. Why give up that lung volume on a bent by restricting the shoulders?

Ok...
I have this thingy:

https://www.amazon.com/Breath-Builder-Volumetric-Exerciser-Spirometer/dp/B000Y02JMI

Did a few tests.

Standing volume (inspired volume after full lung contraction, did a few tries and averaged) - ~4600 ml
lying down horizontally - ~4600ml
Lying down in my recumbent seat - ~3500ml (hmm)
Bridging in my recumbent seat - ~4000ml (hmm^2)
Sitting on my DF bike, open position - ~4000mm
Sitting on my DF bike, closer to handlebars position - ~3500ml.

Not sure what it proves, though.

And I'm only recently begun being *severely* lung-limited on a bent (after swiching to my latest bent with lowest BB).
On RWD with high BB my legs simply refused to work due to pain and general weakness (it was less reclined, btw).
Balance shifted severely on my first MBB with 35 deg of recline and bb about 3 inches higher than the seat (alimunium Challenger) that is an ergonomic abomination but allowed for VERY effective bridging.

 

[Balor]

Does anyone know what percentage of extra power you get on a V20 or other front wheel drive bent when hammering up say a 3-5 minute climb? I am guessing the pulling and use of the upper body is worth 15-20% over rwd with gunnar bars.

Use of upper body depends on your technique. I do notice myself 'boom swinging' from time to time, for instance, but not to the same extent as bar swinging on DF bike.
As for bar pulling... I guess the answer is firm 'it depends', even on same bike because Cruzbikes have (sometimes wildly) varying BB and handlebar heights.

In my case, directly comparing RWD bent that was about 5 kg lighter to MBB bent when hammering up into 30 second climb (about 4%) allowed to to maintain speed of about 25 kmh vs 30 kmh. So yea, about 15%-20% sounds about right. (RWD bent was also MUCH more aerodynamic with gunners, worth a couple of miles higher max speed and way more reclined)

Personally, I find 'pure' bar-pulling not as effective and rather hard on my arms compared to combination of bar-pulling and bridging, that is why all the musings about shoulder boosters.

 

[ed72]

My understanding of lactate shuttle is that pyruvate (glycogen to ATP byproduct) is primarily converted back to pyruvic acid for use in ATP production in the working muscle cell, especially for trained athletes. This is at the the first ventilatory threhsold. After the first ventilatory threshold and to the second, lactate is more significantly released intercellular into the blood stream (especially the untrained) where it is mostly converted to glucose in the liver and also available to other muscles for oxidation. I have never read that the lungs convert lactate and I still do not consider it "waste" because it is fuel for working muscles even if it requires conversion in the liver. The whole point of sweet spot and also Zone 2 training is to reduce blood lactate and enhance its utilization within the working muscle cells. You know....more and bigger mitochondria and associated enymes.


https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-lactate-and-lactate-threshold/

""From Brooks’ work we also know that lactate is not a waste product. In fact, it is the most important gluconeogenic precursor (new glucose generator) in the body. About 30 percent of all glucose we use during exercise is derived from lactate “recycling” to glucose.""

 

[Balor]

where it is mostly converted to glucose in the liver and also available to other muscles for oxidation.

""From Brooks’ work we also know that lactate is not a waste product. In fact, it is the most important gluconeogenic precursor (new glucose generator) in the body. About 30 percent of all glucose we use during exercise is derived from lactate “recycling” to glucose.""

The process is not instantaneous though. Plus, lactate, given enough available oxygen can be consumed directly by other muscles, right - when they are taxed, but not too much. (And by heart muscles, a great deal, actually)
Burrows himself made this claim in one of his videos as to why upper body recruitment on DF can be actually beneficial.
You need to get it (and CO2) from working muscles though, and oxygen in, and when your blood flow is impaired 'downstream' (actually, ehehe, upstream in case of high BB) it does not matter much how effectively your lungs are working...

Your sprint power (as in - onset of severe blood acidation from lactate) may very well depend on ability of your WHOLE BODY to remove excess lactate from blood, but that is indeed 'my understanding' that is limited to a few research papers and Wikipedia articles.

 

[Balor]

I suppose you did spirometry Ed, what's your numbers if it is not a secret?

 

[ed72]

It seems to me that MBB (Cruz) must be similar to an upright coming out of a corner or up a short steep hill and therefore superior in pack racing conditions to rwd bents. My shoulder, neck and arm still are screwed up and no way I could handle a V20.....yet. I almost think a MBB would be equal to an upright when jamming.

 

[ed72]

I suppose you did spirometry Ed, what's your numbers if it is not a secret?

yes I did.

FEV1 increased 20% after albuterol administration during the gawd awful testing. (Asthma). My FVC and FEV1 rato was around 68% pretreatment if I recall but with treatment, I think FVC is around 6.8 L and FEV1 is just over 5 L......I'd have to check,hope I got the acronyms correctly. I had a little mini attack during the last lap of the Midlantic race breathing the open burning smoke. The very days I started riding bents, I began coughing. I'm pretty average even for 60 years. RER is my real interest and it would more directly measure the efficiency of my mitochondria.

Certainly possible isolated but my focus on breathing and breathing exercises and some specific training and seat support got my TT HR on the bent up from 125-130 to 150-155 bpm with an approx. increase linear in threshold power. Not long ago my upright HR at threshold was 170-172 with around 15% more power (duh). I can still hit those HR on an upright. There really isn't much good info on this aspect of bent performance as far as I could read. The Steve Hogg blog post had got me thinking about all the muscles involved in breathing and my PT did as well as I had had shoulder surgery and did a lot of PT type stretching that I also believe helped.

 

[Osiris]

Does anyone know what percentage of extra power you get on a V20 or other front wheel drive bent when hammering up say a 3-5 minute climb? I am guessing the pulling and use of the upper body is worth 15-20% over rwd with gunnar bars.

Assuming the answer is greater than 0%, I imagine the result would greatly depend on technique. Notice that whenever someone tries it and doesn't see any benefit, the response is that he isn't doing it correctly. But if the technique really works, it should be easily demonstrable using a power meter. A 15-20% power increase is hard to miss.

 

[Balor]

Assuming the answer is greater than 0%, I imagine the result would greatly depend on technique. Notice that whenever someone tries it and doesn't see any benefit, the response is that he isn't doing it correctly. But if the technique really works, it should be easily demonstrable using a power meter. A 15-20% power increase is hard to miss.

Well, in my case, once I literally broke off the bars from all the pulling, had it rewelded and was afraid to pull on them nearly as much, I was not close to my PRs, especially climbing and sprinting PRs, so my huge initial burst of climbing proves (I still remember sheer joy of flying up the hill on MBB I used to crawl up on RWD, and both bents weighted the same) cannot be accounted only by lower BB or stiff seat (and certainly not aerodynamics).
On the other hand, you HAVE to pull the bars to correct for 'pedal steer' hence if you are afraid to pull on the bars too much, you might be limiting your overall power production as well, even though pulling the bars during a 'burst climb' or a sprint is very different (more isometric pull with both hands, much stronger as compared to pulsing pulls during steady state pedalling).

Anyway, bar pulling is not power producing technique, it is alternative to bracing against the seat. If latter works very well for you, bar-pulls is unlikely do anything and likely hurt more than help, especially if you cockpit is not optimised exactly for that aspect like in case of Joe Kochanovsky bents... and whether it *really* helped him is also an open question, I don't think he ever run a power meter.
Boom swinging IS a valid way of actually adding power via upper body, but how much can it contribute is an other open question, I don't do it much myself.

 

[ed72]

when the boom swings, isn't the counteracting force the lats, biceps and pec minor? (pulling of the arm)