Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[ed72]

In a way, it might be a selection bias indeed. It is not like Rojoracing was known to be a poor, slow climber (and descender ) way before his recumbent foray.
I find MBB bents work great for me as far as comfort and power delivery is concerned, but my climbing exploits will not impress anyone even if you give me a Vendetta and pump it's tubes full of helium or something .

The fact that Rojo can generate VERY close power number on DF and on a Bent is much more interesting.

By the way, Osiris, how do YOU compared you power numbers between Vendetta and your DF/other bents, climbing and level ground?

To be perfectly frank, RoJo and Tim Turner producing the same power on bents and DFs is what has given me motivation to find the secret.

I am not quite there yet but close enough that it would take a very hilly course for me to be slower on a bent than on a DF.

If I'm not mistaken RoJo matched Marko B. in a hilly double century doing like 8 1/2 hours. Marko is a little older (50??) but he was the National RR champion in Slovenia and he Silvered in the Masters World Road championships, so, not exactly cat 3 pack fodder. I think Marko climbed big ones a little faster but RoJo outpaced him on the flats (as you'd expect).

 

[RojoRacing]

To be perfectly frank, RoJo and Tim Turner producing the same power on bents and DFs is what has given me motivation to find the secret.

I am not quite there yet but close enough that it would take a very hilly course for me to be slower on a bent than on a DF.

If I'm not mistaken RoJo matched Marko B. in a hilly double century doing like 8 1/2 hours. Marko is a little older (50??) but he was the National RR champion in Slovenia and he Silvered in the Masters World Road championships, so, not exactly cat 3 pack fodder. I think Marko climbed big ones a little faster but RoJo outpaced him on the flats (as you'd expect).

Actually it was only a slightly hilly 200 miler with maybe 9000' of climbing, that's well below my average climbing on a course. We had a group on like 5-6 riders pace lining behind me for the first 50 miles until everyone but Marko fell off. For the next 150 I pulled Marko along for about 145 miles of it at 210 watts. He said he was near his limit averaging 230 watts himself but he has a good poker face and didn't show much fatigue. He still refers to that day when someone asks if he's ever done any CA triple crown events as that one time he rode with Jason Perez and it was fun, well kind of. :lol

 

[Balor]

Give it a rest please Balor.

*grumbles* What gives? I'm really just trying to glean some *truth* on 'bent legs phenomena' (without digressions into what amounts to intermittent penis fencing sessions, I must add!) and if someone thinks they have a comprehensive model of what is going on - please share and subject will be dropped like a stone. I'm only in for the data which is relevant to raison d'etre of this thread.

 

[bladderhead]

Anyway, why pick on Balor, is Balor worse than ed72 or Osiris? And now Jason has been drawn in. Terrible!

Those who do not like reading this thread are not allowed to read it.

 

[ed72]

*grumbles* What gives? I'm really just trying to glean some *truth* on 'bent legs phenomena' (without digressions into what amounts to intermittent penis fencing sessions, I must add!) and if someone thinks they have a comprehensive model of what is going on - please share and subject will be dropped like a stone. I'm only in for the data which is relevant to raison d'etre of this thread.

Read this......no such thing as bent legs.

WRT to additional anaerobic power available while climbing on a V20, the experiment is easy and would not require 20 bikes for statistical significance.

If anyone looked at the overhead shots of Sagan and company sprinting, the interaction of the arms, shoulders, and especially the hip interactions are apparent. Most views on video are Sagittal and this 2D section does injustice to effect that a Cruz bike allows during hard efforts (under 5 minutes in duration). Again, this effect should be simple to measure. It is obvious to some.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9b97/52bb069813a99cbec038d14181909e6e178d.pdf

 

[Balor]

Read this......no such thing as bent legs.

In my case - there totally is, because my 'scraping technique' was totally non-existent and now I consider it plenty strong - that's a certainty.
It does not make points you rise any less valid though.

I still think that very open position, low BB + shoulder boosters is a great idea (especially in combination with reclined mesh seat you DO NOT use to brace against).

I mean, extremely open position (if you rotate my MBB seat about 20 deg for horizontal position, my BB location is nearly equivalent to Aurélien's bent) + shoulder boosters at the very least didn't prevent him from averaging 370 watts for an hour!

Of course, he may be even more powerful in less extreme positions, but 370 watts for an hour is much higher number I've personally seen when it comes to racing bents.

Look at Battle Mountain Strava interval, for instance. When I look at watts people dish out, I am totally NOT impressed. Admittely, raw watts will not do you much good if your streamliner is not aero though...

 

[trplay]

As biased as I am for wanting the push-pull gadget to show a grand jump in power it just isn't happening. Maybe, just maybe a slight increase in power but its to small to differentiate between a legitimate increase or just our inconsistencies in pedal stroke.

 

[ed72]

Thanks Balor. I don't know how to get to the Strava Battle Mountain files. I also don't know how to get to those speeds but I would imagine one would roll at FTP until maybe 45 mph or so. Then, up the pace and then maybe 20 seconds before the 200m time zone, let it rip for 30 seconds. I just checked my power profile in XERT, it is pathetic on a bent but with the new crank, I make 647 watts for 30 seconds.

 

[Balor]

Thanks Balor. I don't know how to get to the Strava Battle Mountain files. I also don't know how to get to those speeds but I would imagine one would roll at FTP until maybe 45 mph or so. Then, up the pace and then maybe 20 seconds before the 200m time zone, let it rip for 30 seconds. I just checked my power profile in XERT, it is pathetic on a bent but with the new crank, I make 647 watts for 30 seconds.

Not all of them post tracks to strava and not all of them ride with power (often has to do with pretty much every bit on their bike being custom), but here:

https://www.strava.com/segments/8110805?filter=overall

I'd be very intersted in Todd's power numbers, but the fact that he did NOT choose recumbent position for his human powered helicopter speaks volumes.

 

[ed72]

Pantani doesn't use his upper body when climbing.

Even the riders at 3:24 that he is destroying aren't using their upper bodies while seated.

 

[Balor]

As biased as I am for wanting the push-pull gadget to show a grand jump in power it just isn't happening. Maybe, just maybe a slight increase in power but its to small to differentiate between a legitimate increase or just our inconsistencies in pedal stroke.

Just like oval chainrings, not everyone might get a bonus.
And I daresay, I was totally oblivious to boom-swinging on my first MBB, but on my last, like I said, I *find* myself doing it and it bodes well to listen to one's body.

Basically, the more seat-to-pedal distance changes during boom swinging, the higher should be the effect, and Vendetta, actually, is not the optimum MBB for that effect to manifest. On something like 'classic french design' or better yet, a Flevo/Python, you can swing the boom all you want - with head tube right between your legs seat to pedal distance remains basically unchanged. It makes them better at maneuvering in tight quarters, though.

My first (negative angle) MBB is undergoing some makeover (being equipped with 'cruzbike boom' as well), and it should be much better due to much shorter boom and much longer tiller. Due to awkward superman bars that were prone to slipping under torque I was not doing any boom-swinging on that one ever, but once it would be remade, I'll run some, admittedly very unscientific (like I said, no powermeter even) tests on a local hill, but I'm very inconsistent at power delivery - my PRs are usually MUCH higher than my average attempts.

 

[Balor]

P.S. You can stack up a few pedal extenders for much greater effect, btw... but you run the risk of breaking something in the process.

 

[LMT]

*grumbles* What gives? I'm really just trying to glean some *truth* on 'bent legs phenomena' (without digressions into what amounts to intermittent penis fencing sessions, I must add!) and if someone thinks they have a comprehensive model of what is going on - please share and subject will be dropped like a stone. I'm only in for the data which is relevant to raison d'etre of this thread.

imo:-

The 'truth' you refer too is yourself, ad nauseum talking about pretty much anything and everything (apologies for the hyperbole) to do with yourself riding a MBB. Most of which is based on your own anecdotal evidence but which you pass off as gospel. It's laborious to read through it all.

And PLEASE *when* making your point try AND refrain from *using* CAPS and asterisks to *make* your point.

In a nutshell:

i) Riding a bent is different to riding a DF

ii) It takes time for the body to make adjustments.

iii) These adjustments can be accelerated through sound positioning on the bike to allow for adequate breathing and training at a high cadence to stress the body in adapting to your engine (heart and lungs) bearing the brunt of the stress involved. Training should incorporate VO2 max sessions and a large chunk of endurance work.

iv) We make these adaptions when riding a recumbent because unlike on a DF we cannot spread the work done in producing power to other areas of the body i.e. when you stand up and pedal.

*THREAD CLOSED* ​

 

[ed72]

imo:-

The 'truth' you refer too is yourself, ad nauseum talking about pretty much anything and everything (apologies for the hyperbole) to do with yourself riding a MBB. Most of which is based on your own anecdotal evidence but which you pass off as gospel. It's laborious to read through it all.

And PLEASE *when* making your point try AND refrain from *using* CAPS and asterisks to *make* your point.

In a nutshell:

i) Riding a bent is different to riding a DF

ii) It takes time for the body to make adjustments.

iii) These adjustments can be accelerated through sound positioning on the bike to allow for adequate breathing and training at a high cadence to stress the body in adapting to your engine (heart and lungs) bearing the brunt of the stress involved. Training should incorporate VO2 max sessions and a large chunk of endurance work.

iv) We make these adaptions when riding a recumbent because unlike on a DF we cannot spread the work done in producing power to other areas of the body i.e. when you stand up and pedal.

*THREAD CLOSED* ​

Lotta words. Could you elaborate on the adaptations? Some hows.

 

[ed72]

Not all of them post tracks to strava and not all of them ride with power (often has to do with pretty much every bit on their bike being custom), but here:

https://www.strava.com/segments/8110805?filter=overall

I'd be very intersted in Todd's power numbers, but the fact that he did NOT choose recumbent position for his human powered helicopter speaks volumes.

Looking at the STRAVA files, the runup to the 200m timing stretch takes 5-6 minutes. The peak powers during the timing isn't so impressive but the metabolic challenge is more energy related. For example, if a rider's FTP is 250 watts but lays down 300 watts for 300 seconds, the anaerobic deficit in 15 kJ (300-250) x 300 seconds. If the rider' W' or HIE is 18kJ, he can only put out 400 watts during the timing portion (18-15)/20 = 150 watts above threshold. This is why the actual power numbers are so low. (The STRAVA estimated power figures are bogus, only those with a power symbol are measured, actual figures.....as you know)

 

[trplay]

One question. How come I can do all the magic tricks the pundits spout. I can dump my Flo's, use their breathing techniques while turnining the oval rings etc, etc, etc, and yet I'm still slow as a slug? Why doesn't all this gospel turn into a performance gain I ask? But wait--- it's not just me! I've perused this board for maybe ten years and none of you boys are showing any real jumps either. In the cases where someone has shown some temporary marginal gains it seems it has always been preceded by a whole bunch of hard work and a lot of sweat. "The truth shall set you free". Just saying.

 

[ed72]

One question. How come I can do all the magic tricks the pundits spout. I can dump my Flo's, use their breathing techniques while turnining the oval rings etc, etc, etc, and yet I'm still slow as a slug? Why doesn't all this gospel turn into a performance gain I ask? But wait--- it's not just me! I've perused this board for maybe ten years and none of you boys are showing any real jumps either. In the cases where someone has shown some temporary marginal gains it seems it has always been preceded by a whole bunch of hard work and a lot of sweat. "The truth shall set you free". Just saying.

I assume this is directed to me since I am the one who dumped Flo wheels, breathing techniques, and oval ring devotee.

I busted it for 10 months and almost 10,000 miles with not a lot of progress. Structured training. Not just riding around.

Since late May my FTP is up 25%. Volume is not up. I am doing a little less intervals and more sweet spot. A little less intensity cuz getting old.

24 minute 10 mi TT down to 20:xx consistently. I guess this seems trivial to some but it feels like a grand slam to me.

If these are temporary, marginal gains.......nonetheless, all gains are small and incremental. I fought and clawed for every watt, I just never shared it all.

 

[RojoRacing]

Looking at the STRAVA files, the runup to the 200m timing stretch takes 5-6 minutes. The peak powers during the timing isn't so impressive but the metabolic challenge is more energy related. For example, if a rider's FTP is 250 watts but lays down 300 watts for 300 seconds, the anaerobic deficit in 15 kJ (300-250) x 300 seconds. If the rider' W' or HIE is 18kJ, he can only put out 400 watts during the timing portion (18-15)/20 = 150 watts above threshold. This is why the actual power numbers are so low. (The STRAVA estimated power figures are bogus, only those with a power symbol are measured, actual figures.....as you know)

For 30 seconds to set a record those watts should be at least 800. I believe even I can hold 6-700 for 30 seconds on both my bikes. The minutes leading up are inconsequential compared to the short effort.

 

[Balor]

For 30 seconds to set a record those watts should be at least 800. I believe even I can hold 6-700 for 30 seconds on both my bikes. The minutes leading up are inconsequential compared to the short effort.

"Should be" - yea. My brief experience with real PM show that I also can hold about 600 watts for 30 sec on my bent (though resulting watt/kg is half of yours).
Can one do it while being taped into a coffin where you must pedal in a VERY specific way not to bump your legs into anything and being starved for oxygen... results say no. Could a tiny hole in high-pressure zone (like on Elviestretto) challeling hole into the shell make things much easier? it worked for 92 kmh hour record on a track... but it might upset really high-speed aerodynamics too much I presume.

One question. How come I can do all the magic tricks the pundits spout. I can dump my Flo's, use their breathing techniques while turnining the oval rings etc, etc, etc, and yet I'm still slow as a slug? Why doesn't all this gospel turn into a performance gain I ask? But wait--- it's not just me! I've perused this board for maybe ten years and none of you boys are showing any real jumps either. In the cases where someone has shown some temporary marginal gains it seems it has always been preceded by a whole bunch of hard work and a lot of sweat. "The truth shall set you free". Just saying.

Well, using "tricks" alone without hard training will do you no good indeed. But in my case switch to MBB bent resulted in such a marked JUMP in improvement it basically started my search for similar 'tricks' - that is why I am here.
Personally I'm no racer (only a dabbling ultracyclist) and I find 'inventing bicycles' much more interesting than interval training, but I think you should in fact be *thankful* (just like I'm massively thankful for the data provided by Ed or articles on recumbents.com) because it allows someone differently inclined to benefit from all that theory while doing hard training and getting the best of both worlds.

After all, even Hoy will not break 80 mph sprint - it takes 'tricks'. Training, in of itself, will not benefit anyone else but you. Research into what makes bikes faster and better controlled on general principles benefit everyone - provided it gives birth to real data, of course.

*THREAD CLOSED*

Nope. First, you assume position of authority you do not have, in more ways than one.
Second, your post amounts to "Throw enough training at it and it will go away".
And what if it does not? (See Ed's example) There is only so much you can train before you basically destroy yourself.
This is not a 'model'. This is not even hypothesis. It's just dismissal of the very real problem. You are not being helpful.

 

[LMT]

.
Nope. First, you assume position of authority you do not have, in more ways than one.
Second, your post amounts to "Throw enough training at it and it will go away".
And what if it does not? (See Ed's example) There is only so much you can train before you basically destroy yourself.
This is not a 'model'. This is not even hypothesis. It's just dismissal of the very real problem. You are not being helpful.

I don't assume anything, it was imo and the 'Thread closed' was an attempt at some irony given what you put in the original post.

I don't think you even know what the real problem is and just talk for the sake of talking, for which I see this being a very long drawn out process which I want no part of - have fun.