Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[bladderhead]

Brooks? Aravis? What you need is a bucket seat covered in Ventisit. Then you need to find a bike that fits underneath it.

 

[ed72]

Brooks? Aravis? What you need is a bucket seat covered in Ventisit. Then you need to find a bike that fits underneath it.

I think RoJo rides both a recumbent and an upright, presumably both fit. I have tired a lot of upright saddles but not the Infinity, it has to be good for distance....Marko uses it. Lon Haldeman used the B17 to go across the USA in 12 days, he turned around and road back across in another 13 days. Good enough for me.

Personally, I hate the ventisit pad. I pulled it off after one ride.

I am going to put the Thor on again. The problem with "bucket" carbon recumbent seats for me are threefold.

1. They are too narrow at the shoulders resulting in abrasions at the scapula and poor shoulder support overall. I need 2 more inches of width.

2. They constrain the glutes and psoas muscles. (why else do riders "bridge"??)

3. Lastly, in conjunction with the shape at the bucket, they are also too narrow there. After 100-150 miles, the effects can be felt. This pressure point would not be an issue if the body weight was supported more upstream, say at L2/3 area or somewhere above the tailbone.

 

[Balor]

This pressure point would not be an issue if the body weight was supported more upstream, say at L2/3 area or somewhere above the tailbone.

Yea, in my case lots of recline + more lumbar support (velcroed a piece of a camping mat) helps.

As for 'off the shelf' designs for back support...
http://www.thorseat.eu/en/type-of-recumbent-seats/recumbent-seat-model-carrier/

Unfortunately, it would likely not work too well for high recline UNLESS you, again, strategically use pieces of foam to 'unbucket' the shape a bit.

 

[Balor]

By the way, 'sport' Thor seat is REALLY flexy in the upper portion, at least glass fiber one, likely due to "the model “Sport” is equipped with a lowered rib, allowing a maximal amount of durability alongside with a minimal amount of weight".

I have a custom seat in the works (*STILL* in the works, eh), otherwise I'd likely reinforce that area.

 

[ed72]

Besides Thor, M5, and Tailgun, are there any other carbon recumbent seat makers? Besides Ventist or Don at BBM Racing, what other pad Mfg are out there? Buying a recumbent seat is not only expensive but the shipping isn't inconsequential unlike an upright saddles, which are generally cheaper, more easily resold, and shipping is relatively cheap. One upright online retailer even has a try before you buy program. Drilling and fitting a new bent seat and assorted attachments is a whole lotta more commitment and fun with far fewer choices.

One big difference between bents and uprights is the level of fiddling and fabricating like putting water onboard, affixing a headlight, putting a taillight on, bags, cutting camping foam pads, etc. Many times one must create their own solution.

 

[Balor]

Yea, having a 3D printer helps a lot as well .
I really think that there should be a custom seat manufacturing service for high-performing bents, not unlike how I've made a mould for mine (air or water matress, two-part PU foam).

By the way, 'bucket' shape is actually good for preventing tailbone soreness that was very bad on a flat Challenge aluminium seat. It was also extremely stiff and was fine to 'bridge' against.

 

[tiltmaniac]

Besides Thor, M5, and Tailgun, are there any other carbon recumbent seat makers? Besides Ventist or Don at BBM Racing, what other pad Mfg are out there? Buying a recumbent seat is not only expensive but the shipping isn't inconsequential unlike an upright saddles, which are generally cheaper, more easily resold, and shipping is relatively cheap. One upright online retailer even has a try before you buy program. Drilling and fitting a new bent seat and assorted attachments is a whole lotta more commitment and fun with far fewer choices.

One big difference between bents and uprights is the level of fiddling and fabricating like putting water onboard, affixing a headlight, putting a taillight on, bags, cutting camping foam pads, etc. Many times one must create their own solution.

Ya, there is the "comfort carbon" seat from volae.
https://hostelshoppe.com/VOLAE-Hardshell-Comfort-Carbon-Fiber-Seat-Small-156881/

Subtle differences from the Thor, and it is definitely both stiffer and heavier.

 

[Balor]

So long as we are talking seat and seat reclines, it would be interesting to have a seat that does not have an upper curve like on Vendetta, BUT much wider and more 'anatomic'.
Remember, Cruzbike seats are much more 'aero' per same recline (as in - hip angle given same BB height) as other seats due to lack of upper curve.
More than that, how about a seat that has NEGATIVE (as in - downward) upper curve?

 

[Osiris]

You should try ISM Adamo saddle. https://www.ismseat.com/performance-saddles/

I have two Adamo Prologue saddles, and my 14 y.o. took one of them to mount on his Marin mountain bike. He liked it as well.

Adamo saddles seem to be hit or miss. I've got them on all my road and mountain bikes. For me they're the most comfortable saddle out there, but I also know people who can't stand them and who ride on saddles which, to me, feel like sitting on the edge of a knife.

 

[ed72]

Yea, having a 3D printer helps a lot as well .
I really think that there should be a custom seat manufacturing service for high-performing bents, not unlike how I've made a mould for mine (air or water matress, two-part PU foam).

By the way, 'bucket' shape is actually good for preventing tailbone soreness that was very bad on a flat Challenge aluminium seat. It was also extremely stiff and was fine to 'bridge' against.

Why isn't there a standard for seat mounts? Or the distance (width) between the seat ribs? I just spent 90 minutes grinding, dremelling, and drilling to kludge the Thor onto the M5. Finding different hardware. Drilling and mounting the headrest. I'll leave the tailbox off. It fit the Baron. Looks easier on the V20 per this thread. I can change a saddle on an upright in 90 seconds. So, the difference is 60 to 1.

http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/seat-mod.8978/

 

[Balor]

Standards? Or a recumbent? Blasphemy

 

[ed72]

Standards? Or a recumbent? Blasphemy

No Kidding. I just started out on my ride and then there is a grinding noise sounded like I routed the chain wrong over the rear derailleur pulleys, so, long story short.....the idler hits the seat rib and the chain grinds on a frozen idler. I can probably grind some more carbon and shore it all up with some duck tape and maybe a few tie-wraps strategically placed. I guess the lesson? No standards, do your due diligence before swapping anything

I haven't been out on my old magnesium Pinarello Dogma in maybe 13 months. I think this is an omen. The only problem is my left elbow is down to the bone after a little detour and crash into the desert the other day. Screw it, I'm taking the up-wrong out. This is going to be weird.

 

[bladderhead]

Your seat is like my mudguards. All these complicated bits like brakes and gears, and the mudguards were the worst. The stays are different on each side, to accommodate the disk brake.

 

[jond]

Yea, having a 3D printer helps a lot as well .
I really think that there should be a custom seat manufacturing service for high-performing bents, not unlike how I've made a mould for mine (air or water matress, two-part PU foam).

By the way, 'bucket' shape is actually good for preventing tailbone soreness that was very bad on a flat Challenge aluminium seat. It was also extremely stiff and was fine to 'bridge' against.

Yeah I get recumbutt on standard 2005 challenge hurricane but it’s aluminium seat is not flat. Its ergonomically contoured for spine and has a central channel. Also holed for a little weight saving. You are right about stiff. The whole bike is stiff but it’s also relatively heavy.

I think constantly about removing that monolithic seat for something lighter like a Thor.

I’m tempered though by its relative merits compared to the vendetta. Hurricane is relatively slow but suspended comfort is relaxing even with 406 wheels. It cannot be the speed machine that the vendetta is. So weight weenie be gone be gone be gone .......please. Lol.

 

[ed72]

Mudguards on an upright take me less than 10 minutes to install although Honjo's take more (much) effort on the first pass. On a bent? Wish I knew. Few have the clearance but the S40 looks like a keeper.

The hours spent fitting the seat and bits and pieces raised the question in my mind, why would any sane bike shop owner carry recumbents or at least that was my thoughts while messing with little screws, washers, and drilling away on carbon. Does it take more than 3 minutes to swap out a saddle on an upright. The position is too low.....going to need to rework.

Bottomline: bents take a lot of fiddling in my opinion

 

[jond]

Bottom line bents are more fiddle for sure. But that’s fun for some. The ho hum simplicity of a safety df frame can’t be beat . The s40 is a fine example of what bents can be. Just need to sell more of em. Magic. Development.
The s40 is possibly more of a fiddle to work on but it’s build standard like my vendetta is second to none.

The comfort safety and speed advantages are worth extra fiddling at the be fast end.

And at the touring end comfort safety with df equality in cargo capacity and weight pretty much for the serious tourer.

Makes it difficult for people wanting a turnkey bent they can ride off on straight away if you don’t like a bit of fettlin fiddling. Local bike shops are not usually an option.

 

[Osiris]

I spent some time after my ride yesterday comparing power/speed differences between my Specialized Venge road bike and the V20, and the results are amazing. On one uphill segment, I averaged 464 watts on the Venge, which got me an average speed of 22.5 mph. On that identical segment the previous week, I averaged 323 watts, with an average speed of 23 mph on the V20. On a climb, the V20's aero advantage is blunted somewhat by it's significantly greater weight. Nevertheless, it still required 141 watts more power on the DF to go 0.5 mph slower! Though these results represent my best performance on both the DF and V20 so far, the difference between them has been fairly consistent over the past few weeks. It would only be on very steep climbs that the DF would win a race against the V20, or for that matter, any recumbent I've ridden. Tomorrow I may give my Morciglio M1 (pictured in my avatar) a try on that same segment. At ~30 lbs, it's considerably heavier than the V20, so it will be interesting to see whether its aerodynamic advantage will result in the same kind of lopsided result I've seen when comparing the V20 to my DF.

 

[Balor]

So, after spending a couple of years on recumbents, after getting on DF, it took only a month to get back your power with a very significant 'bonus' when it comes to FTP?

 

[Osiris]

So, after spending a couple of years on recumbents, after getting on DF, it took only a month to get back your power with a very significant 'bonus' when it comes to FTP?

Not quite. I started riding recumbents exclusively about four years ago, and I've added roughly 1,500 miles to the Venge since I resumed riding it this year. I'm not sure how long it took me to accumulate that many miles, but definitely more than a month. I have not done an FTP test on a DF in many years, so I'm not sure what it would be now. My only purpose in riding a DF is just to be on something different. Tomorrow I'll be taking the M1 out, just to do some coast down tests to see how it compares to my other bents. It should be incredibly fast, but unfortunately it's aerodynamic efficiency comes at the expense of stability.

 

[Balor]

I just wanna have some tentative data whether riding high BB bents for a while leads to better circulation that translates into better performance on DF as well.
It might be a very interesting (though hard to prove scientifically) point that may lead to acceptance of bents as a training tool among top athletes at the very least... and than, once they got familiar enough, who knows .