I noticed it. I now ride with a Zeiss shield with clear cycling glasses underneath. When descending tricky, bumpy, pot hole infested "roads", I tilt the helmet up a bit and look thru the glasses only. Plus, this helps save money on brake pads.
Road bike vs. recumbent comparison
- Thread starter Osiris
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billyk
Guru
Actually, a possible disadvantage of recumbents compared to DF bikes is that flatulence is directed forward and slows you down, whereas on a DF you get a "burst" of speed. I'm surprised this hasn't come up earlier on this forum ... we discuss everything else.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
bladderhead
Zen MBB Master
I think someone mentioned cutting a hole in the seat. This would direct it all through the holes into the hydro-formed bit. Explosion?
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
So it's been over a month now since I resumed riding a road bike (occasionally) after riding recumbents exclusively for four years. This weekend's performance on the road bike leaves no doubt that I'm making amazing progress in regaining the strength I had four years ago. The amount of peak power I can generate on my road bike now exceeds the maximum I can produce on a recumbent by at least 200 watts, and I can sustain high power outputs for quite a bit longer than I was able to just a few weeks ago. Ultimately the battle is still going to be won or lost by aerodynamics, though. And because drag increases according to the square of your velocity, the stronger you are as a rider, the more you'll be able to exploit the aero advantage of a fast recumbent like the V20.
Yesterday I rode with a woman who regularly participates in tri-athlons. She rides a Bacchetta CA2, and is by all accounts a very fast rider. Her CA2 is not as aerodynamic as my V20, as I've proved countless times when coasting down hills with her. Yesterday was a complete reversal of that, as I repeatedly watched her CA2 coast right past me on my road bike, even on relatively mild slopes at relatively modest speeds. I can see now why none of the local cycling groups want recumbents on their group rides. There's nothing more depressing than watching someone do no work at all and just coast past you when you're having to pedal just to keep up with them. It's as if they're cheating somehow.
Yesterday I rode with a woman who regularly participates in tri-athlons. She rides a Bacchetta CA2, and is by all accounts a very fast rider. Her CA2 is not as aerodynamic as my V20, as I've proved countless times when coasting down hills with her. Yesterday was a complete reversal of that, as I repeatedly watched her CA2 coast right past me on my road bike, even on relatively mild slopes at relatively modest speeds. I can see now why none of the local cycling groups want recumbents on their group rides. There's nothing more depressing than watching someone do no work at all and just coast past you when you're having to pedal just to keep up with them. It's as if they're cheating somehow.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Unfortunately, that has more to do with having to wait for them after each significant hill. (unless you are much stronger that they are)
Hills are all abount watt/kg, and no bent seems to be an exception - even MBB bents... maybe mbb bents without a lot of recline and low bb as Marco Ruga REVs? But then you'll have to sacrifice aerodymamics quite a bit.
Bents really need "adjustable on the fly" seats like those of enduro mountain bikes
Hills are all abount watt/kg, and no bent seems to be an exception - even MBB bents... maybe mbb bents without a lot of recline and low bb as Marco Ruga REVs? But then you'll have to sacrifice aerodymamics quite a bit.
Bents really need "adjustable on the fly" seats like those of enduro mountain bikes
Unless your name is Jason Perez.Unfortunately, that has more to do with having to wait for them after each significant hill. (unless you are much stronger that they are)
Hills are all abount watt/kg, and no bent seems to be an exception - even MBB bents... maybe mbb bents without a lot of recline and low bb as Marco Ruga REVs? But then you'll have to sacrifice aerodymamics quite a bit.
Bents really need "adjustable on the fly" seats like those of enduro mountain bikes
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
What's particularly vexing to me is that none of the progress I've made in terms of power output on my road bike has translated into any gains on my recumbents. None! One would think that a whopping increase of 200-300 watts on the road bike would have to make itself felt at least to some degree on the recumbent, but none of my tests bear that out. It is not the case, as some have suggested, that "different muscles" are being used when pedaling a road bike. As any book on kineseology will tell you, the muscles acting on the hip and knee joints are exactly the same in both cases. The difference lies only in the fact that certain muscle groups are being stressed differently on a road bike than on a bent. The bent forward posture typical on road bikes places more emphasis on the glutes and hamstrings at the top of the pedal stroke, whereas the more open hip angle seen on fast bents like the V20 tend to place more emphasis on the quadriceps. Unsurprisingly, when doing sprints on the road bike, my glutes and hamstrings will feel exhausted at the end, but my quadriceps feel like they've done very little work. When sprinting on the V20, just the opposite is the case. It's tempting to just conclude that I'm able to generate more power on a road bike because my glutes and hamstrings are stronger than my quads, but this isn't the case. On a leg press, I can always lift more weight when the angle between my thigh and torso is at 90 degrees (V20) than when it's at 53 degrees (road bike with hands in the drops). Muscle leverage on the femur decreases the more you bend your hips and knees. Cadence may be a significant factor. I've noticed that on a road bike, I can pedal much faster than what would be comfortable on a bent. Typically my cadence on a road bike is 95+ rpm, sometimes approaching 140 rpm in a sprint, whereas on the bent I feel most comfortable pedaling at 80-85 rpm, and going only slightly above 110 rpm in sprints. Other bent riders report similar findings, but no one seems to know why.
cranky cyclist
Guru
Yes,I am experiencing this as well. Sprinting at high rpm is hard on the Silvio and my average cadence is in the 80's dropping into the 70's on a hill climb. I have 165 mm cranks and I am wondering if 155 would allow a faster cadence but keep the control of the lower cadence.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
FWIW, I've tried cranks of various lengths on my bents, but going shorter didn't seem to make much difference. The cranks on my road bike are 172.5 mm, and I can nevertheless spin faster with those than I can with the 165 mm cranks on my V20. Pedaling at a higher cadence on the bent just doesn't feel right, but I can't explain why.
jond
Zen MBB Master
Osiris your experience is absolutely not what I have found. I’m working with 280 -290 watts FTP with a body weight of 79 - 82 kg. So decidedly average but hey I’m 57 next birthday.
I have repeatedly over years and tens of thousands of kilometres using power tap hubs found my power is the same on df trike catrike 700 or vendetta. Across all power zones and to a lesser extent heart rate zones.
It takes approximately two weeks to see same numbers heart rate to wattage. Going back to df my heart rate is 10 bpm higher for steady state. Two weeks later hr is back to normal .
Perhaps having a 200 watt difference in your case is apart from being astronomical is explained physiologically or otherwise unique to your experience.
I know others report less power laying down on the job. But I think this is not because of the platform rather the rider relaxes into the free smart speed. And why not.
Osiris go out and try maintaining your df wattages on the vendetta using power alerts on your head unit.
What you are saying is not what I have found.
Recently I went from 170 to 155 mm cranks. Increased cadence resulted.
So how does everyone else see their power watts/kg from platform to platform.
I have repeatedly over years and tens of thousands of kilometres using power tap hubs found my power is the same on df trike catrike 700 or vendetta. Across all power zones and to a lesser extent heart rate zones.
It takes approximately two weeks to see same numbers heart rate to wattage. Going back to df my heart rate is 10 bpm higher for steady state. Two weeks later hr is back to normal .
Perhaps having a 200 watt difference in your case is apart from being astronomical is explained physiologically or otherwise unique to your experience.
I know others report less power laying down on the job. But I think this is not because of the platform rather the rider relaxes into the free smart speed. And why not.
Osiris go out and try maintaining your df wattages on the vendetta using power alerts on your head unit.
What you are saying is not what I have found.
Recently I went from 170 to 155 mm cranks. Increased cadence resulted.
So how does everyone else see their power watts/kg from platform to platform.
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super slim
Zen MBB Master
How do you like the 155 mm cranks?
I think your comment about free smart speed is spot on!
jond
Zen MBB Master
Slim I really like the Cobb shorter cranks. Increased cadence and better form. Easy to spin up more aero and more room. Reduced movement .
Great for training and track and trainer.
But for long distance where your cadence falls away. I look at Larry o and even his cadence falls over distance......
I think I’m with Maria and my 170 cranks feel best on distance events. Especially when going uphill.
Do you think I’d be bothered to swap out a crankset again...........to retest. Nah it’s flat and short for me wherever possible.
jond
Zen MBB Master
White kit should be discriminated against and vilified. Lol. Poor old lance. What a chisel getting caught.
super slim
Zen MBB Master
https://www.dutchbikebits.com/crank-shortener
You could use this crank shortener on your 175 mm cranks, and just remove them for your long rides!!
You could use this crank shortener on your 175 mm cranks, and just remove them for your long rides!!
jond
Zen MBB Master
Ah very practical and simple a good solid sensible solution but..........
I just told my fsa Klite 170 mm wonder crankset which you rode on what you suggested. I could hear the gossamer pro triple and ultegra mid compact snickering and guffawing from inside the dark spares cupboard of doom. The Cobb crankset just said shoot that Aussie ding bat.
“Do it do it they are chanting. Screw that $200 a gram over priced over blown poseur a new one. “
Never had the heart to tell klite she was a 10 speed runout special on eBay. Lol
Thanks slim but I would pull out the crankset first. Laziness cured.
bladderhead
Zen MBB Master
Poor old whoever is behind him in the peloton. It is called drafting.jond said:
I do not have a cadence meter. I did have one, but it never worked, and then it broke. I know my cadence fluctuates enormously. On my Grasshopper I used to tell myself to spin faster. I kept forgetting, and catching myself with a really low cadence. Eventually I learned the habit of spinning, but it took discipline. I had only had the Silvio a short time and I realised I was mashing again. This keeps happening. I keep trying to make myself spin, and then forgetting.
paco1961
Zen MBB Master
For me watts are watts but speed is a different story. My watt production on CB is just about the same as it always was on DFs - after an adjustment period. I’m a Clydesdale at roughly 90kg and FTP of about 265-270. But as @jond put it, the free smart speed is the difference. Faster on the flats and downhills because of the aero position. Laying down on the job doesn’t make me any stronger or weaker but physics makes me faster . . . as long as I keep off those 18% climbs!
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
An FTP of 280-290 for someone of your weight would make you a pretty strong rider in these parts. My current FTP is somewhere in the low 280's, but the more I learn about FTP, the less importance I place on it. I've raced against riders with FTP's well above mine, but I routinely beat them in sprints because my peak power output is considerably higher than theirs. In a longer race where endurance becomes a big factor, they would of course win every time.
That's a very unusual. It certainly does not mirror my experience, or anyone else's that I've heard from. The reports I've read from others is that a greater angle of recline always results in a drop in power. You do regain some of it after your body adjusts to the new position, but I've never gotten back all of it. The trick is to stay in that zone where the power you've lost is more than compensated for by the improved aerodynamics. My peak wattage when I was riding only road bikes four years ago was right around 1300 watts. When I first started riding a recumbent, the most I could manage even on a trainer, was about 700 watts. That number has gradually increased over the years, but it's still nowhere near what I could manage on my road bike four years ago.
It's a big increase to be sure, but not out of line with my past experience. When I was lifting weights back in my 20's, I was able to triple my strength over a two year period, but then quit doing it for many years and lost all the strength I'd gained. When I resumed weight training, I assumed that it would take me just as long to regain the strength I once had as it took to build that strength originally, but in fact it required only a fraction of the time. I don't quite understand the science behind it, but it seems that once the body has attained a certain level of performance, it take much less time to re-acquire it.
I've read two scientific papers which proved it using various test subjects on a machine that made possible radical changes in hip angle. The question is not whether it happens, but why it happens. Many riders like me have been using power meters on all our bikes for years, and there is absolutely no doubt that, in a reclined position, we're not able to produce the same amount of power. Not even after years of riding bents exclusively. Larry Oslund has done numerous power tests on bents with varying seat angles, and it didn't surprise me in the least to see that his results also show big power losses as the angle of recline increases.
super slim
Zen MBB Master
I did not think you would go for the Adapter!!!
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