Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[ed72]

For 30 seconds to set a record those watts should be at least 800. I believe even I can hold 6-700 for 30 seconds on both my bikes. The minutes leading up are inconsequential compared to the short effort.

The minutes leading up are only inconsequential if the power well under FTP. The one file I looked at had the rider in the 320-350 watts range for 3-4 minutes.

There is a limit to how much energy (power multiplied by time) one can expend once above FTP. If one is pedaling above FTP to build speed, the maximum power available (MPA in XERT or W' in other platforms like GoldCheetah) will be less and less depending upon how many matches one has burned to get there. This link explains it. If a rider has 20 kJoules of high intensity energy available ("matches"), once used......he is toast. No sprint until some recovery. The Maximum Power Available (MPA) is available real time on your Garmin using XERT and if your fitness signature is reasonably correct, it is uncanny in predicting failure.

http://baronbiosys.com/maximal-power-available/

 

[ed72]

I don't assume anything, it was imo and the 'Thread closed' was an attempt at some irony given what you put in the original post.

I don't think you even know what the real problem is and just talk for the sake of talking, for which I see this being a very long drawn out process which I want no part of - have fun.

Then just take your sourpuss out of it, seriously.

People like you are why the very, very few knowledgeable bent racers and riders don't post.

Yes, I have read almost every post on every forum going back 10 years. I know your contributions. Good day.

 

[Osiris]

As biased as I am for wanting the push-pull gadget to show a grand jump in power it just isn't happening. Maybe, just maybe a slight increase in power but its to small to differentiate between a legitimate increase or just our inconsistencies in pedal stroke.

Thank you for your honesty. It's a bit of a disappointment, since the V20 happens to be my favorite bent, but unlike some here, I prefer hard facts over feel-good fantasy.

 

[ed72]

Thank you for your honesty. It's a bit of a disappointment, since the V20 happens to be my favorite bent, but unlike some here, I prefer hard facts over feel-good fantasy.

You have three bents with power meters, it should be easy to generate some facts.

How far is Sugarloaf?

Easy to test.

 

[Osiris]

You have three bents with power meters, it should be easy to generate some facts.

How far is Sugarloaf?

Easy to test.

No, it's not easy to test. I've told you several times why it isn't, but let's try again. Testing the claim that you can add power to your pedal strokes by wagging the handlebars requires that you time the movement of the handlebars to coincide with the power phase of the pedal stroke. That takes a lot practice, and it's made all the more difficult because it results in unwanted steering inputs, which can be distracting. I'm not accustomed to riding that way, so the fact that a couple of my experiments failed to show any power increase could simply be due to poor technique. That counterargument is very difficult to overcome because it's virtually unfalsifiable: no matter how many negative results you get, someone can always say, "Well that's just because you weren't doing it right." That's why these sorts of myths don't die easily.

 

[ed72]

No, it's not easy to test. I've told you several times why it isn't, but let's try again. Testing the claim that you can add power to your pedal strokes by wagging the handlebars requires that you time the movement of the handlebars to coincide with the power phase of the pedal stroke. That takes a lot practice, and it's made all the more difficult because it results in unwanted steering inputs, which can be distracting. I'm not accustomed to riding that way, so the fact that a couple of my experiments failed to show any power increase could simply be due to poor technique. That counterargument is very difficult to overcome because it's virtually unfalsifiable: no matter how many negative results you get, someone can always say, "Well that's just because you weren't doing it right." That's why these sorts of myths don't die easily.

How about riding a more gentle hill of 3-6 minutes on the V20 once you have more experience. Two conditions. 1) No hands. 2) Arms wagging. Wait. Jim already did this on the trainer. I know you explained it but your explanation comes from an inexperienced user and really doesn't carry any weight to me. It sort of reminds me of you saying the M5 is a defective design because the chain gets in your way or the bars hit your tummy or you dump the chain or you fall off it a lot. The V20 should be no different. You must learn new skills. I doubt timing the arm movements is that hard to learn. If you are unwilling or unable to learn, that is fine. But it does make it fair to say it is a myth, especially when some evidence has been provided to support additional power provided by the arms on short duration efforts. It is clear you have made your mind up but then again your position was espoused way before owning one.

I observed Larry O. pulling on the bars with each pedal stroke in 20 mph cross wind at 25-28 mph and he had front and rear discs.

So, it is possible to learn. 400 miles is nothing. It took me about 7000 miles to ride my M5 no hands.....pedaling

http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/climbing-hills-on-a-v20.12243/

 

[Osiris]

Pantani doesn't use his upper body when climbing.

Even the riders at 3:24 that he is destroying aren't using their upper bodies while seated.

Here again, you are failing to distinguish between observation and inference. You observe someone doing X (climbing out of the saddle) and you infer Y (that climbing out of the saddle is more efficient). You have no grounds for making that inference; nothing you have seen tells you that. You are also once again, cherry picking your examples. Some riders like Contador prefer climbing out of the saddle, whereas others like Froome and Wiggins prefer to do their climbs seated. What can we reasonably conclude from that? Nothing, other than it is simply false to declare as a general rule that climbing while standing on the pedals is more efficient.

 

[Osiris]

How about riding a more gentle hill of 3-6 minutes on the V20 once you have more experience. Two conditions. 1) No hands. 2) Arms wagging. Wait. Jim already did this on the trainer.

Did what on the trainer? What are you referring to? The only experiment done on a trainer that replicated the technique of handlebar wagging was performed by "trplay", and as you already know, his results did not back up Jim's claims or yours. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I know you explained it but your explanation comes from an inexperienced user and really doesn't carry any weight to me.

Wait, you're saying that my explanation that nothing can be concluded from my test because I'm an inexperienced user is invalid because I'm an inexperienced user? What on earth are you talking about?

It sort of reminds me of you saying the M5 is a defective design because the chain gets in your way or the bars hit your tummy or you dump the chain or you fall off it a lot.

Again, you're not making any sense. The things you mention ARE defects. Fortunately the mechanical flaws are easily addressed, but no one in his right mind would say that an ideal recumbent design is one where the front wheel hits the chain in turns, knocks the chain off the sprocket, or results in heel strikes. The very fact that Cruzbikes suffers from none of these problems is the reason why so many Cruzbike users prefer them.

But it does make it fair to say it is a myth, especially when some evidence has been provided to support additional power provided by the arms on short duration efforts.

I think it's entirely fair to think its a myth. First, I don't buy the explanation for how it's supposed to work. Second, no matter how hard you are trying to ignore this, trplay just falsified Jim's claim. If you read his blog, you'll see that trplay is, as he himself admits, highly biased toward Cruzbike. Frankly, I was surprised to see that his results didn't confirm the claim that he wanted to prove. The fact that he was able to overcome his bias and post an honest result is more than I have come to expect from Cruzbike brand loyalists.

It is clear you have made your mind up but then again your position was espoused way before owning one.

That's quite an example of psychological projection there, Ed.

By the way, what happened to your promise not to post in any of my threads? Was breaking that promise at the first opportunity just another example of your dishonesty?

 

[Gary123]

Seems to be more than one storm passing through. Hope they'll both be over soon.

 

[ed72]

There was an entire thread trying to help you learn to climb on your V20.

Lots of people honestly tried to help you but all you did was argue instead of trying to apply what suggestions were offered, no projection. I am convinced the V20 can climb short hills or sprint better for reasons given. I could dig up a 20 page thread on another forum to further support my assertion that you had your mind made up. To have a mere 400 miles on a new platform and then to argue against experienced users who were trying to help you is what I meant.
Your mind is made up. You are not even willing to experiment.

Instead of accepting the advice and trying it, you then somewhat ridiculously complained the V20 was in essence an aerodynamic dog. I gave you real world numbers against which to compare. I asked for a picture on the bike. You sent a picture of the V20 without the rider. That is what I mean about an inexperienced user. I can only assume you do not understand that the rider, clothing and position make for most of the aero losses. Think about it, have you ever tried the advice given and reported back. No, you immediately retort back. If you really want to learn how to climb better.....try going back over that thread and rather than nitpicking, try to understand and apply what people were suggesting.

I linked the thread earlier.

Sorry you feel I am being dishonest. I think I am just being blunt.

 

[Osiris]

There was an entire thread trying to help you learn to climb on your V20.

Lots of people honestly tried to help you but all you did was argue instead of trying to apply what suggestions were offered, no projection. I am convinced the V20 can climb short hills or sprint better for reasons given. I could dig up a 20 page thread on another forum to further support my assertion that you had your mind made up. To have a mere 400 miles on a new platform and then to argue against experienced users who were trying to help you is what I meant.
Your mind is made up. You are not even willing to experiment.

Instead of accepting the advice and trying it, you then somewhat ridiculously complained the V20 was in essence an aerodynamic dog. I gave you real world numbers against which to compare. I asked for a picture on the bike. You sent a picture of the V20 without the rider. That is what I mean about an inexperienced user. I can only assume you do not understand that the rider, clothing and position make for most of the aero losses. Think about it, have you ever tried the advice given and reported back. No, you immediately retort back. If you really want to learn how to climb better.....try going back over that thread and rather than nitpicking, try to understand and apply what people were suggesting.

I linked the thread earlier.

Sorry you feel I am being dishonest. I think I am just being blunt.

Incredible. All that and not one response to any of the points I challenged you on. I think you've made it plain by now that any hope I might have entertained that you were capable of engaging in an honest exchange was misplaced.

What a pity that your word proved to be utterly worthless as well:

[QUOTE="ed72]I am sorry but I will never post in a thread that you are in.[/quote]

 

[benphyr]

Seems to be more than one storm passing through. Hope they'll both be over soon.

Agreed, hope everyone makes it safely through the storms!

 

[McWheels]

https://xkcd.com/386/

 

[LMT]

Then just take your sourpuss out of it, seriously.

People like you are why the very, very few knowledgeable bent racers and riders don't post.

Yes, I have read almost every post on every forum going back 10 years. I know your contributions. Good day.

Bizarre, there's no sourpuss from me. Just an honest opinion of what it's like trying to read through this thread.

Not sure what it is about 'me' that makes people not want to post, given that you are banned over on BROL I'd suggest that there is some projection going on here?

Either way good luck next year on the French ride.

 

[RojoRacing]

The minutes leading up are only inconsequential if the power well under FTP. The one file I looked at had the rider in the 320-350 watts range for 3-4 minutes.

There is a limit to how much energy (power multiplied by time) one can expend once above FTP. If one is pedaling above FTP to build speed, the maximum power available (MPA in XERT or W' in other platforms like GoldCheetah) will be less and less depending upon how many matches one has burned to get there. This link explains it. If a rider has 20 kJoules of high intensity energy available ("matches"), once used......he is toast. No sprint until some recovery. The Maximum Power Available (MPA) is available real time on your Garmin using XERT and if your fitness signature is reasonably correct, it is uncanny in predicting failure.

http://baronbiosys.com/maximal-power-available/

Doesn't have to be well under ftp in those mins, holding ftp is something a qualified rider can do for a whole hour and we're talking a few mins. Assuming the riders ftp is 300 as it damn well should be if you're going through all the effort to build a custom carbon bullet and break these records, holding 350 for 2 mins then going into a maximal effort for 30 seconds should still get you well into the 800 for a fresh rider. Today on a 60 mile ride where I was way off my game and managed to get dropped by the group 3 separate times I still managed at mile 55 to hold 346 watts for 3 mins ending with 32 seconds of 614 watts. That is after already completely blowing up several times earlier in the ride, imagine if I was fresh for those 5-10 mins. Something seem very odd about the power values on strava for the few riders with actual power meters, like very odd data smoothing and very little to almost no spike in power for the sprint at the end of the run. If the bikes are so uncomfortable that the rider can only put out 1/3 of their maximal power it would seem like a huge over site. If the teams can only seem to find untrained engineers to pilot their rigs that would seem equally laughable but hey I wasn't there so I have no idea.

If the pilots are really not as strong as I think they should be maybe someday I can find myself a spot on a team and give it a go myself. I've driven past battle mountain dozens of times in my travel but never exited the hwy to take a look at the road.

 

[McWheels]

There's some Brits over there at the moment. See this thread from another place. I've not decoded all that he says, mainly because I've not invested in the knowing of the competitors. Sounds like it wasn't all easy, but then it probably shouldn't be if it's a world record?

 

[RojoRacing]

that doesn't look like 350 watts to me when he's getting it at the end

 

[jond]

We're talking about the alleged power increase resulting from swinging the boom from side to side.



I'm not sure what you mean by "bar pulling". What are you describing?



I'm far from convinced that it must work. Consider the example of someone trying to lift a heavy barbell off the floor with his legs. He grabs the bar and pulls, but the weight is too heavy for his legs to lift it. Someone then suggests, "Why not pull up with your arms, thereby adding the power of your arms to the power of your legs?" You can easily see why this suggestion makes no sense. The leg muscles are already working at full capacity, and there is no way to add power to them with your arms. Similarly, if you're pedaling as hard as your legs are able to, nothing you do with your upper body will add power to your leg muscles. It would be an entirely different situation if you had two sets of pedals, one set for your arms, and the other for your legs; then you could pedal with your arms to increase the total amount of power your legs alone are capable of producing. But that isn't possible on a Cruzbike.

Hmm you are not adding power to your legs you are adding power to the bar.

I’m sitting on my vendetta right leg immobile pedal at 12 o’clock. I simultaneously pull on right bar and push on left. The pedal moves against my immobile leg or housebrick if you like. Now combine that with regular pedalling and do it on both sides and you are indeed adding to the overall performance.

In fact I can rest my legs while swinging the boom. You can’t do it on the trainer or on any other bent that is not mbb. You’ll break something inevitably.

Nor can I maintain swinging boom or bridging or both for long.

It works. It does work. How much depends upon your individual set up and upper body strength.

Most serious cyclists deserve sand kicked in their face for their weedy upper bodies.

But Osiris you are talking neuromuscular efforts not tempo so at those upper limits
I reckon a sound technique is all you can hope for on any platform.

 

[Balor]

Second, no matter how hard you are trying to ignore this, trplay just falsified Jim's claim.

Now there, a failed replication does not equal falsification and you know that. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I kind of afraid of testing boom swinging on my FS MBB "all the way" because wallmart bike pivots are known for developing play without subjecting them to huge twisting loads even, but what I do *seems* efficient and give me a bit of extra power.
Hopefully, somewhere around next year I'll get scrape up on a cheapish power meter unless our economy tanks again and be able to contribute some more or less solid data.

 

[Osiris]

It works. It does work. How much depends upon your individual set up and upper body strength.

You're a bit late to the party. I'm not going to recapitulate all the postings that you seem to have missed, but another member named "trplay" tested this theory several days ago on his specially designed trainer. His conclusion was this: "As biased as I am for wanting the push-pull gadget to show a grand jump in power it just isn't happening. Maybe, just maybe a slight increase in power but its to small to differentiate between a legitimate increase or just our inconsistencies in pedal stroke."