Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[Osiris]

Lets see: trplay member since 2013; Osiris member since Jan 2018. No, not a late comer. What you don't know is this discussion has been around a lot longer than you have.

You omitted the last portion of the sentence: "the conversation between Balor and me". How long you and I have been on the forum is irrelevant, as are any other conversations you allude to. I'm plainly not referring to conversations extraneous to this thread; I'm correcting what seemed to be misinterpretations of what I've written in this thread.

Looks like you found your answer, time to stop digging and start Zwifting.

So you're not going to tell me what these other advantages you say there are amount to?

 

[trplay]

The point is ya'lls stuff is old and stale it preceeds you. We need something more than old questions. Dude you been trolling all day long and the only thing you have caught is an old geezer. That should tell you a ton.

 

[ratz]

Ummm... where we going with this boys? Is it keyboard racing season already?

Let's see if I can summarize before I lock this thread (which would be like twice in history).

1. Hardy loves Zwift.
2. Osiris is a short flat track kind of dude.
3. All the old timers here have enough real life experiences to know the CB climbs better and we still don't know exactly why but there are about 6 main factor that apply differently to different riders.
4. The new riders are asking the question we use to ask all the time.

Anyone wants to make crazy power number claims send me the data files or pm me and we can load the data into the analysis and see just how much slower than uncle larry anyone is. Unless you jond and just to dam crazy strong to be bothered by power meters and just crazy enough to try and ride across Australia.

any how my point. let's leave the battles over on bentrider and keep the discussions here. I love both but, let's keep it fun.

 

[trplay]

lol, you finally come out of self exile and its to lock out a thread. No need we're doing just fine. Welcome back.

 

[ratz]

lol, you finally come out of self exile and its to lock out a thread. No need we're doing just fine. Welcome back.

Oh I didn't lock it I just want to remind you that you 'll kick my ass on zwift but I still have the mallet here if need. If there were quality IT people available to hire; I'd have enough staff that I wouldn't have been in exile.

 

[jond]

Ummm... where we going with this boys? Is it keyboard racing season already?

Let's see if I can summarize before I lock this thread (which would be like twice in history).

1. Hardy loves Zwift.
2. Osiris is a short flat track kind of dude.
3. All the old timers here have enough real life experiences to know the CB climbs better and we still don't know exactly why but there are about 6 main factor that apply differently to different riders.
4. The new riders are asking the question we use to ask all the time.

Anyone wants to make crazy power number claims send me the data files or pm me and we can load the data into the analysis and see just how much slower than uncle larry anyone is. Unless you jond and just to dam crazy strong to be bothered by power meters and just crazy enough to try and ride across Australia.

any how my point. let's leave the battles over on bentrider and keep the discussions here. I love both but, let's keep it fun.

Lol ratz I am a power meter devotee. Both of em on the vendetta mostly g3 hubs.

Yes civility is what has kept this forum helpful and reasoned.

Delete works. For my part apologies.

 

[trplay]

let's keep it fun.

Did somebody say fun? Oh boy, oh boy, let me tell you Zwift is fun. And no, wise race money would bet on the keeper of the hammer to win. Here is the vision. Flood the Zwift community with recumbent riders. I have the last places covered. Now we need more slow and fast guys to spread inside the pelotons along with more women. Yes, more women. Connie is 64 for goodness sakes she can't keep carrying the torch. Time to step up boys and girls. At least stick a toe in the pond.

 

[ratz]

Did somebody say fun? Oh boy, oh boy, let me tell you Zwift is fun. And no, wise race money would bet on the keeper of the hammer to win. Here is the vision. Flood the Zwift community with recumbent riders. I have the last places covered. Now we need more slow and fast guys to spread inside the pelotons along with more women. Yes, more women. Connie is 64 for goodness sakes she can't keep carrying the torch. Time to step up boys and girls. At least stick a toe in the pond.

I'll be there most days at 8 or 8:30 am. Events are a few weeks of healing away.

 

[jond]

Did somebody say fun? Oh boy, oh boy, let me tell you Zwift is fun. And no, wise race money would bet on the keeper of the hammer to win. Here is the vision. Flood the Zwift community with recumbent riders. I have the last places covered. Now we need more slow and fast guys to spread inside the pelotons along with more women. Yes, more women. Connie is 64 for goodness sakes she can't keep carrying the torch. Time to step up boys and girls. At least stick a toe in the pond.

I will give it a go soon. Broadband is coming early 2019 ........ fibre to the house.

 

[trplay]

It's promising seeing all these commitments. Just for interest purposes and I noticed Jason just came online. Zwift power ranks people in categories A-D. A cat being the highest. They take the last 90 days and use your 20 minutes w/kg stats to rank you. Jason is our highest ranked member as B category racer. Cruzlike is second at cat C. Connie is the only known female racer that I am aware of but it is likely there are others out there.

 

[jond]

Moose your enthusiasm makes sense. I’ve just got to give it a go.

Just checked nbn website and bugger it’s fibre to the node now. Crappo probably end up with the magic street box spoiling the $100 dollar view.......

 

[trplay]

. I’ve just got to give it a go.

Just checked nbn website and bugger it’s fibre to the node now.

You just don't know how excited I am to have someone from Down under finally come onboard. I mean, thats the birth place of the Cruzbike! It's only fitting we have participants from there.

 

[jond]

You just don't know how excited I am to have someone from Down under finally come onboard. I mean, thats the birth place of the Cruzbike! It's only fitting we have participants from there.

Well gird your moosey loins my friend. The internet won’t be here till jan March 2019. That’s lemontree passage nsw Australia not the whole country.

I currently am reduced to a dongle.........with intermittent cover. I’m in the boonies but don’t tell slim that. I have to cache offline which is why I use TrainerRoad and Fulgaz only with the kickr.

Yes it will be good and I look forward to a steep learning curve as a technophobe.

My massive 3.2 to 3.5 watts/kg with bung left knee is coming to race real soon.

How can we ignore your moose musky enthusiasm any more.

 

[Balor]

Well, I have to agree with Osiris here - he is being *rightfully* sceptical (because it does not *seem* to work for him), and discussion is rather civil compared to BROL to be fair.
After all, Jim explicitly ASKED for a scientific analysis of his claims, and Osiris is doing just that, and for free!
If he is getting result you don't like... well, don't shoot the messenger, unless you can prove that he scrambled the message (which is also possible, to be fair).

And since Zwift does not have any way to 'prove' that you are riding a recumbent, it is rather irrelevant for proving anything about them (though makes an excellent training platform).

As for 'magic of the front triangle' - after some discussions with frame builders I can say that those claims must be true, but you must compare Vendetta not with carbon wonderbikes, but with more pedestrian aluminium bents - and having triangulated drivetrain should indeed allow more (maybe MUCH more depending on your pedalling style, power output and frame design) efficiency in power delivery all else being equal, or much ligher weight, or both.

To prevent chainstays bending from chain torque and, hence, rear wheel minutely misaligning from direction of travel and related trail-like friction forces you need either VERY stiff chainstays (in case of RWD bents they are 'one large chainstay') and/or triangulated drivetrain.
Plus, like you said, you must certainly get about 3-4% extra power from reduced friction losses in idlers. In case of multiple idlers and chain tubes losses might be even more significant.

 

[Osiris]

Well, I have to agree with Osiris here

Probably the wisest words ever written.

 

[Balor]

Probably the wisest words ever written.

*sigh*
Do try harder to keep narcissistic traits in check, please? It's not exactly helping your credibility no matter how rational you try to be otherwise... not a exactly a "judgement" per se, just a friendly observation, really.

 

[trplay]

If he is getting result you don't like... well, don't shoot the messenger,

Everyone doesn't see a messenger. We already know Osiris is incapable of boosting his power with push pull. He has stated so time and time again. A messenger brings one something, a heckler simply annoys. Chop 14:15 edt toooday.

 

[Balor]

A messenger brings one something, a heckler simply annoys.

One can be annoying and right. Of course, one does not use vinegar to trap bees and if he really wants to influence people, not just assert his presumed superiority, he should tone down his smugness a bit (that was my point).
Otherwise I can fully empathise with *what* he is doing, and *how* he is doing it - if not exactly *why*, I suspect.
Still, I think he brings a positive contribution to this forum.

 

[Osiris]

As for 'magic of the front triangle' - after some discussions with frame builders I can say that those claims must be true, but you must compare Vendetta not with carbon wonderbikes, but with more pedestrian aluminium bents - and having triangulated drivetrain should indeed allow more (maybe MUCH more depending on your pedalling style, power output and frame design) efficiency in power delivery all else being equal, or much ligher weight, or both.

I've spoken with Kent Polk and some other bent racers about this. Kent made the point that some recumbents perform well with weaker riders, but exhibit power sapping frame flex with strong riders, so when evaluating their drive train efficiency it matters how they're being used and by whom.

To prevent chainstays bending from chain torque and, hence, rear wheel minutely misaligning from direction of travel and related trail-like friction forces you need either VERY stiff chainstays (in case of RWD bents they are 'one large chainstay') and/or triangulated drivetrain.
Plus, like you said, you must certainly get about 3-4% extra power from reduced friction losses in idlers. In case of multiple idlers and chain tubes losses might be even more significant.

I haven't come up with any good way to measure drivetrain efficiency on my various bikes/bents, but it's clear from just turning the pedals with the tip of my index finger that my DF has the least amount of resistance, followed by the V20, and then my M5. I was surprised that the M5 isn't much worse, considering that it has not one but two idler wheels. Out of curiosity, I temporarily disconnected the chain from the second idler wheel, but the resistance at the pedals seemed unchanged.

 

[trplay]

Me thinks you are taking this way to serious. Osiris is OK , but until he has something new and more convincing he needs to let this one go. The horse has been dead for a long, long time.