Steering damper/stabilizer

Everyone is welcome here, the tribe isn't going away, but that's just another way to say we are a family and one that continues to grow.
'ratz,
Your post needs more than a "Like" button. Thank you (and everyone else) for your support. Because of this forum I learned how to build, ride, and make my Cruzebike my own. I look forward to the posts here. Advice, stories, photos make my day a little bit brighter.
 

RAR

Well-Known Member
I'll address this once but I really don't want to divert the core thread (I'll separate them if necessary) but since you repeatedly bring it up, as a tent pole of your argument it seems necessary.

Understand that the history of "The Cruzbike Tribe" has absolutely nothing to do with earning a right of passiage or mastering the MBB. It came about last year in support of several members doing extra-ordinary boundary pushing (for them personally) things. I don't remember if I, @Lief,or @Abbott Smith coined it. But it was derived from some banter about the Familial experience of this place; and what happens when we happen to meet each other in the real world; which is usually more hugs than handshakes. (In the U.S. that's rather abnormal, but perhaps it's improving). Somewhere along the way it stuck.

What we have here in this forum a unique corner of bike enthusiasts that have a statistically odd slant to the glass is half-full side of the equation. We enjoy each others company, we revile in solving problems and helping other succeed and we are not stingy with our time or knowledge. Lastly and potentially most importantly we do not make up answers, we actually try it in the dirt and report back; leaving the speculation for other places. When someone struggles with learning the bike we do get passionate in trying to help; we know what success means and it pains us when someone really struggles; hence the floods of:
  • encouragement
  • don't give up's
  • tell us what you are experiencing
99.9% of us here do not control how the bikes work; we are just customers. Passionate customers of a company that has earned our respect by listening to our feedback and when possible and practical has incorporated it into the product lines (even when we are testy about it). So we help with what we know works and try to pedal-steer people past difficulties. :cool:

The reactions at the start of this thread go way back further that the thread itself. At one time we had a couple people have disasterous results with home brew stabilizers because they lacked the necessary skills to create one beyond a bungie cord; and worst they did so without trying the bike without them, they left mad and unhappy. Basically they assumed they needed them from the get go sight unseen, and said so in many places; So when that became a recurring "belief" of newbies who didn't even own the bike yet; the community countered it by supporting the idea that you can easily learn to ride the bike without one; and perhaps you should try it first and see. (Sort of like tasting your food before you dump a bunch of salt on it; better to know how much salt you need to get a good result). All of that predates any notion of Tribe; and was simply the experienced people debunking the myth that the bike are hard to ride; which they are not; they are simply different to ride; and thankfully they continue to evolve and improve in many ways that will draw a larger audience. Successful homemade items like Jason and Gary made are the two well documented exceptions, and they simply had the skills and knowledge to do it right and with a specific personal goal in mind.

Everyone is welcome here, the tribe isn't going away, but that's just another way to say we are a family and one that continues to grow. The successful participates, are: Authentic, Honest, Genuine, Consistent, and Reasonable; everyone is welcome and really we don't care if you own one of the bikes yet; we are convinced that at some point in time there will be a model that suits you.
Bravissimo !!!!
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
I'll address this once but I really don't want to divert the core thread (I'll separate them if necessary) but since you repeatedly bring it up, as a tent pole of your argument it seems necessary.

Understand that the history of "The Cruzbike Tribe" has absolutely nothing to do with earning a right of passiage or mastering the MBB. It came about last year in support of several members doing extra-ordinary boundary pushing (for them personally) things. I don't remember if I, @Lief or @Abbott Smith coined it. But it was derived from some banter about the Familial experience of this place; and what happens when we happen to meet each other in the real world; which is usually more hugs than handshakes. (In the U.S. that's rather abnormal, but perhaps it's improving). Somewhere along the way it stuck.

What we have here in this forum a unique corner of bike enthusiasts that have a statistically odd slant to the glass is half-full side of the equation. We enjoy each others company, we revile in solving problems and helping other succeed and we are not stingy with our time or knowledge. Lastly and potentially most importantly we do not make up answers, we actually try it in the dirt and report back; leaving the speculation for other places. When someone struggles with learning the bike we do get passionate in trying to help; we know what success means and it pains us when someone really struggles; hence the floods of:
  • encouragement
  • don't give up's
  • tell us what you are experiencing
99.9% of us here do not control how the bikes work; we are just customers. Passionate customers of a company that has earned our respect by listening to our feedback and when possible and practical has incorporated it into the product lines (even when we are testy about it). So we help with what we know works and try to pedal-steer people past difficulties. :cool:

The reactions at the start of this thread go way back further that the thread itself. At one time we had a couple people have disasterous results with home brew stabilizers because they lacked the necessary skills to create one beyond a bungie cord; and worst they did so without trying the bike without them, they left mad and unhappy. Basically they assumed they needed them from the get go sight unseen, and said so in many places; So when that became a recurring "belief" of newbies who didn't even own the bike yet; the community countered it by supporting the idea that you can easily learn to ride the bike without one; and perhaps you should try it first and see. (Sort of like tasting your food before you dump a bunch of salt on it; better to know how much salt you need to get a good result). All of that predates any notion of Tribe; and was simply the experienced people debunking the myth that the bike are hard to ride; which they are not; they are simply different to ride; and thankfully they continue to evolve and improve in many ways that will draw a larger audience. Successful homemade items like Jason and Gary made are the two well documented exceptions, and they simply had the skills and knowledge to do it right and with a specific personal goal in mind.

Everyone is welcome here, the tribe isn't going away, but that's just another way to say we are a family and one that continues to grow. The successful participates, are: Authentic, Honest, Genuine, Consistent, and Reasonable; everyone is welcome and really we don't care if you own one of the bikes yet; we are convinced that at some point in time there will be a model that suits you.
Ratz, for a Computer Guy, that was VERY, VERY, well spoken, and hopefully DOES conveys the Cruzbike Forum (tribe) attitude, and genuine concern for other Cruzbike riders!
It is also the most informative non biased site on cycling that I have ever found!!!
 

Lief

Guru Schmuru
@ratz - you are right on...RIGHT on.

@Balor - I think we were all a little flabbergasted at the rapid rise of venom. But now that I understand where you are coming from - I get it. Words have meaning - often more than one.
For yet another perspective on being a tribe (and BTW I welcome moving this part of the conversation over into The Bike Rack) - you'll have to look past any of your preconceived notions of exclusivity that may come along as baggage with the word. With us it's not about the traditional "social division" - quite literally it's "social inclusion" and common purpose.

I'm sure that we have the illustrious Seth Godin (also a customer BTW) to thank for the term - I was reading his blog heavily during the time of the conversation @ratz is referencing.
Plus about that time I was engaged in a thoughtful, personal conversation with Maria and Lucia about the really engaged, helpful, and selfless team you see here.
We were all astounded and moved by the consideration afforded to such a small company by such a dedicated and trusting group.

Seth's definition is helpful.

"A tribe is a group of people connected to one another, connected to a leader, and connected to an idea. For millions of years, human beings have been part of one tribe or another. A group needs only two things to be a tribe: a shared interest and a way to communicate.”
Seth Godin, Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us
But the stress @ratz places on the the connected-ness we share is only touched on in this quote. When I was able to finally meet some of my friends here last weekend I was like a school-boy on christmas morning - it took me all day to slow down enough to start speaking in well-formed sentences.

We have leaders in many areas of this tribe - racing, modding, marketing, falling, misspelling, teasing, testing, winning...and we all benefit.
We get better when we engage thoughtfully with each leader - and indeed become leaders ourselves.
And sometimes it really hurts the rest of use when one of us falls. In that case we rally around him or her while they dust themselves off and looks for a good way to move forward.
And then we tease them about it - I'm looking at you @LarryOz. Perhaps more so when they get all fast and world champion-like. :)

All that and a good laugh.
 

Lief

Guru Schmuru
On to the less important subject at hand - steering dampers and anti-flop devices.
Cruzbike has a good reason to want to make sure that as many people can enjoy these bikes as possible.
Sure - try it out. See what works. Offer the option.
But in my opinion it's a nice-to-have (a distant third option behind Must Have, and Want to Have).

I short-tested the one @Robert Holler is long-term-testing at the retreat - sure.
I barely noticed it.
Did it work? Maybe.
Did it impede? Don't think so.
Might it go wonky? Maybe
Did it "help"? Don't think so honestly.

Do the potential failures outweigh the potential benefits? Hard to say - but I think yes.
* the potential benefit is increased uptake
* the potential failures are something like catastrophic failure

IMO - test it enough to validate the point of the thing. Offer it as a validated after-market option if someone *REALLY* wants it - but don't burn too many calories on it.
The geometry of the bikes, and the refinement that Cruzbike designers are making, is so well dialed in that it's not necessary and not worth the wrestle.

To me it's like training wheels - they were the thing to do when I was a kid but nowadays it's pretty obvious (to me and others) that teaching a kid to ride a bike starts with taking off the pedals rather than bolting on some catch-me device. (http://www.ibike.org/education/teaching-kids.htm and of course Sheldon Brown)
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
My initial tests of it that it help a very small amount for the slow speed stuff - and I mean very small. This is not a training wheels type of thing. If anything, I see the benefit of it being at the higher speed end of the spectrum.

My point exactly, just like on motorcycles.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
Well, if anything, my 'incursion' did help to knit the community together even tighter it seems, so if my goal was to saw discord, I'd be failing miserably... fortunately for my self-esteem, it is definitely not the case :).
However:

I barely noticed it.
Did it work? Maybe.
Did it impede? Don't think so.
Might it go wonky? Maybe
Did it "help"? Don't think so honestly.

* the potential benefit is increased uptake
* the potential failures are something like catastrophic failure

You are contradicting yourself. Ether it is 'hardly noticeable', or 'it can result in catastrophic failure'.

a. Flop stop, unless really powerful, is 'barely noticeable' indeed. It is mostly needed off the bike. If it breaks - you simply lose convenience of handling the bike, just like Jason said. It might play a role in sharp maneuvers and cornering, there is only so much I can predict by sheer theorizing - but Jason claims that it is not noticeable 'on bike' and I trust him.
b. Dampers do not fail by 'seizing up' - they fail by stopping to damp (barring crashes and mechanical damage). Hence, if it suddenly leaks, you would simply lose a 'helping edge', not an essential part of steering.

While there might be people that claim MBB design is 'uncontrollable' without a damper, I am not one of them (after all, I've already did 200 and 300 km brevets on one). I'm simply positively sure that adding one would result in net benefit both for ease of learning AND ease of long-term use, despite the (minor!) weight and cost penalty, and I have both theoretical and practical reasons for my claims.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
Anyway, putting a damper and flop stop on a bike of someone who is accustomed already to ride without one and asking him to ride a bit is a flawed experiment. If we are to get to REAL, objective truth - we need a proper, controlled experiment.

You need a group of people that had no experience riding MBB whatsoever, than split them into 3 sub-groups:
1. MBB with steering damper and flop stop.
2. MBB sans those.
3. RWD recumbent, with similar steering arrangement and rider position.

Each sub-group should be at least 10 people large, preferably 20, otherwise you might get statistical artefacts - people are different in ability (and that is my entire point).

Give them a similar amount of training time, enough to get them accustomed to bike handling, than run them though 'trials' course, that would include slow speed manoeuvres, high-speed cornering, climbing and descending steep slopes.
Measure the total time and number of errors, and listen to rider's reports - when they've felt most and least confident.
Than swap the groups around and see how it will affect their time.

Nothing beats a proper experiment when you need the truth, and nothing but the truth. We (I am not immune too, if less susceptible) as humans are prone to 'motivated reasoning' and hence have ability to ignore facts even when they stare right into our faces and invent outwardly ridiculous, but 'internally' plausible reasons for doing so.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Anyway, putting a damper and flop stop on a bike of someone who is accustomed already to ride without one and asking him to ride a bit is a flawed experiment. If we are to get to REAL, objective truth - we need a proper, controlled experiment

Yep that's understood; if you look at the retreat photos; you see me teaching someone to ride the Quest 20"; that was a quick spin up; so we could throw him on the dampened S30 and see what happened. He as intimidated by the height of the S30; so we had the quick here's how you ride this thing; now try this one and only bike here that has a dampener on it.

So you can rest assured the need to test with the uninitiated was part of the objectives; initial debug for "oh crap" was being conducted with the experienced rider to make sure it doesn't interfere with the accomplished riders and that if it did fail in an unexpected way that the rider has a chance to walk away from the experience. Do understand there will be lots testing going on that won't be "updated here" it's time consuming; and the company does prefer to under promise and over deliver on upcoming stuff. This peak behind the current seemed warranted (it's also the extend of the spying we got to conduct at the retreat; official answers carry more weight than I can give.).
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Well, if anything, my 'incursion' did help to knit the community together even tighter it seems, so if my goal was to saw discord, I'd be failing miserably... fortunately for my self-esteem, it is definitely not the case :).

Sometimes things become "self-referential" to the point of becoming non-obvious. If there is confusion then having a time to self-correct that can be a positive thing. Everyone here has the same long term goals; more butts on bikes. If we all wander in the same general direction it doesn't matter that we take slightly different paths. In the end we all progress to the same target.
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
Yep that's understood; if you look at the retreat photos; you see me teaching someone to ride the Quest 20"; that was a quick spin up; so we could throw him on the dampened S30 and see what happened. He as intimidated by the height of the S30; so we had the quick here's how you ride this thing; now try this one and only bike here that has a dampener on it.

So you can rest assured the need to with the uninitiated was part of the objectives; initial debug for "oh crap" was being conducted with the experienced rider to make sure it doesn't interfere with the accomplished riders and that if it did fail in an unexpected way that the rider has a chance to walk away from the experience. Do understand there will be lots testing going on that won't be "update here" it's time consuming; and the company does prefer to under promise and over deliver on upcoming stuff. This peak behind the current seemed warranted

Well as someone who thinks rolling stability on the vendetta leaves much to be desired you can count me in for any related product testing. I think my riding the V in areas less recumbented could generate unique performance advantages or issues. I'm also a self labeled engineer of sorts so I can help in that regard as well. It's just an offer if you guys feel the need to expand your testing pool.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
Well as someone who thinks rolling stability on the vendetta leaves much to be desired you can count me in for any related product testing. I think my riding the V in areas less recumbented could generate unique performance advantages or issues. I'm also a self labeled engineer of sorts so I can help in that regard as well. It's just an offer if you guys feel the need to expand your testing pool.

Well, you may also try and evaluate my 'negative angle' plans.
I've just updated it with my design featuring shortest boom yet, but still forward-shifted weight distribution and equal 700c wheels.
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
When I was able to finally meet some of my friends here last weekend I was like a school-boy on christmas morning - it took me all day to slow down enough to start speaking in well-formed sentences.
Ok, so that explains why we couldn't understand you at first! ;););););):D:D:D:D:D:Do_Oo_Oo_Oo_O
It goes without saying Lief - it was an honor and a pleasure to finally meet you at the retreat!
 
One quick addendum to the Tribal history subthread.

This community rallies around each other. The statement:

"Cruzbike: the Bike, the Tribe, the Company you keep."

evolved out of the incredible support and comraderie the community has exhibited throughout its life. I bought my V20 to help me battle T1 diabetes. The entire community rides to battle brain cancer through the 3000 Miles to a Cure foundation that the Parkers created.

There is a genuine and inclusive community here that is linked by both the bikes and the spirit behind the bikes. SigrD isn't just a bike to me. She's a tool I use to take back my life. And as much as I enjoy the freedom a bike affords me to lose myself in my own thoughts, my disease demands I have a strong community supporting me.

I am incredibly blessed. I found both the JDRF Ride to Cure and the Cruzbike families in one 3 month period when I needed them most. And my life has been fundamentally altered because of that experience. I test rode a bike at a bike show and stumbled across a company with Maria's heart beating at its core. Maria and the community immediately rallied around me. That encompasses more than just the mechanical engineering of the bike. And that connection is in no small part why the Tribal component in this thread is so much like stepping on the third rail. We value what we have here as a community because the community makes a difference in peoples' lives.

I never lose sight of that fact. image.jpg image.jpgimage.jpg
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
If done correctly you should feel nothing while riding. You'd feel it a bit pushing the bike around by hand but that's about it.
 
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