Test riding a true racing recumbent

[Osiris]

Speaking of anaerobic...down here in Houston in the summer (and even now), there is the problem of overheating with the high temperatures and humidity. It is fine at 7:30 am and 75 deg F but after 3-4 hrs it is up to 90 and the DF group I ride behind is still going 23 and my heart rate is in the 170-180 bpm range because it is hot.

I feel your pain. It's only 7:30 here in central Florida and the temperature has already climbed to 81F, with a predicted high of 97F. Humidity is so high that it feels as if I just stepped out of the shower. Even riders who have lived here most of their lives have suffered heat exhaustion. Two people I know had to be hospitalized after a particularly grueling ride in the high heat of Summer. I'm afraid that all my training is going to have to be done indoors before long. The M1 (shown in my avatar) is no longer rideable. The seat is only 7" above the ground at its lowest point, and the amount of heat radiating off the pavement makes it feel as if I'm lying in a sauna. Just dreadful.

 

[Bill Wightman]

Well, one answer to that is to ride at night. If you have a safe and predictable route you can go get a boatload of night-rated constant and flashing lights. I have had motorcyclists say "nice lights" as they pass. Very important so cars can change lanes way in advance. I avoid Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights with more cars and drunks and stay somewhat local and stay off any single lane roads. Be careful if your route crosses traffic at lights. People will run lights at night when no other cars are around. My main route at night is mostly right turns avoiding traffic crossing when at a light. It is really pleasant out riding, sprinting, chilling under a dark summer sky with the moon out. It is my biking meditation.

 

[Osiris]

Well, one answer to that is to ride at night. If you have a safe and predictable route you can go get a boatload of night-rated constant and flashing lights. I have had motorcyclists say "nice lights" as they pass. Very important so cars can change lanes way in advance. I avoid Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights with more cars and drunks and stay somewhat local and stay off any single lane roads. Be careful if your route crosses traffic at lights. People will run lights at night when no other cars are around is. My main route at night is mostly right turns avoiding traffic crossing when at a light. It is really pleasant out riding, sprinting, chilling under a dark summer sky with the moon out. It is my biking meditation.

Not an option for me, unfortunately. I suffer from night blindness, and even with a strong light illuminating the road, there's very little I can see beyond it. That, and the fact that we have the worst drivers in the country makes for a lethal combination.

 

[trplay]

Rojo would really like cornering his Cruzbike around here. The tires are really sticking.

 

[Osiris]

Ed, what kind of chain life are you getting on your M5? Mine has ~4200 miles on it, and the wear/stretch indicator is still only at 50%.

 

[ed72]

I use Molten Speed Wax every 2-3 weeks with Squirt applied every 150-200 miles to Dura Ace chains. My last chain was replaced at around 9,000 miles with no appreciable wear. One of the challenges of just using Squirt is getting it into the pins and rollers, I used to drive it in with a heat gun. I now start with letting the chain sit in the crockpot of wax for 30+ minutes. Attached is the best durability testing that I have found that simulate real world conditions. I would not use it for efficiency data, Friction Facts is better.

My current chain was replaced just after Christmas (gift). I am nearing 5,000 miles on it and it is 12 inches on the money.....no observed wear.

I have a new SRAM 1190 cassette and three new Dura Ace chains waiting to be installed for upcoming PBP.

https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/

 

[Osiris]

You're getting some amazing results with the Speed Wax. I can't remember the brand name at the moment, but I've been using a general purpose spray-on lube which dries almost instantly. It was recommended to me years ago on a motorcycling forum, and increased my chain life (on a motorcycle) from an average of 11,000 miles to around 20,000 miles, so I've stuck with it. But despite the fact that it's dry to the touch after the initial application, it will turn black and greasy with use. I recently cleaned the chain in my ultrasonic cleaner and was surprised to see how dirty the cleaning fluid (Simple Green mixed with water) became after only a few minutes. At the bottom of the tray was a surprising amount of fine grit, which is probably responsible for most of the chain wear. My concern isn't so much chain wear, but the power sapping effects of all that greasy, gritty lube coating every chain link. Who knows how much drag that's creating.

With a brand new chain I've noticed that it takes only a small amount of pressure with the tip of my finger to turn the pedals on my DF's, but significantly more to turn the pedals on my bents (especially the M5 and M1). I've tried using small weights suspended from the pedals to measure the difference, but there's just too much "stiction" to allow for accurate measurements using this method. I suspect the culprit is the idler wheel. On the M5, I can hear and feel every link scraping against the idler when slowly turning the pedals, and this happens no matter which gear it's in. Have you noticed it on yours? I assume your M5 was set up with a Bacchetta idler in place of the factory M5 idler and chain tube arrangement?

 

[ed72]

Well, this is an area where the V20 is far superior. C'est la vie.

I use the factory idler and no chain tubes. Au natural. Bram told me tubes suck up 5-10 watts depending on power levels.

I like not getting dirty from the chain. The inside of my Mercedes wagon likes it too. I used to transport it on rack on the back of my Land Cruiser but my son takes the rack off when off roading and being a bit gimpy, I can't put it back on. So, I throw it inside the back of the wagon. Wax is clean(er).

The grit is probably metal particles. Easy to tell....dry it and use a magnet. I break a new chain in with the factory grease still on. A couple rides in dry weather. The chain then goes into white gas. The little chunks of metal that come off surprised me. Then, alcohol. I dry quickly (heat gun) because oxidation would be quick. Then, right into the molten wax. 3 chains times $40 isn't a ton of money but I would say the benefit over poorly prepared and maintained chains can be 3-10 watts at racing speeds depending on chain angles and how yucky the chain is. At 20-25 mph, on the order of average wheels vs very fast wheels. This is not something that is easy to measure, so, take this with a huge grain of salt.

Zero Friction shows MSW chains going 15,000 km. That is one chain. The M5 uses almost 3 full chains and should last three times longer since the primary wear is at the cassette as it bends under power. The pins are under a lot of stress there. Of course, you have much more peak power than I. Your chains would wear out quicker.

 

[Osiris]

Well, this is an area where the V20 is far superior. C'est la vie.

There is more resistance when turning the pedals on my V20 than on any of my uprights, but it still has the chain Ben put on it. With a new chain, I would expect the amount of drag to be the same as it is on my DF's.

I use the factory idler and no chain tubes. Au natural. Bram told me tubes suck up 5-10 watts depending on power levels.

This is a bit confusing to me. The factory idler is designed to be used with a chain tube (or two). Are you saying that the return portion of your chain is hanging unsupported?

This is how John Schlitter builds them, using the double sided Bacchetta idler in place of the M5 hardware shown above. Kent Polk's M5 is set up the same way.

 

[Bill Wightman]

I just started the waxed chain production method for the V20. 1 - Put chain in soapy water ultrasonic cleaner on hot for about 45 minutes, rotating periodically, 2 - pour out dirty water (into dehydrating bucket) and do step 1 again, 3 - bake-out water in oven at 170 degF (lowest setting for my oven) for about 2-4 hours. 4 - immerse in small crockpot with melted block paraffin overnight, agitate periodically, 5 - pull out and hang straight to harden wax for a while, 6 - hand break wax at each joint, 7 - re-install with quick-link after getting cassette and everything else squeaky clean. I have run current chain about 1200 miles so far and my red plastic idler wheels look as clean as the first day. Runs smooth and I assume fast. I do not know if Speed Wax is faster but I have enough paraffin for a couple of lifetimes. I no longer get in trouble for getting grease on stuff in the house where I keep the bike.

 

[ed72]

This is a bit confusing to me. The factory idler is designed to be used with a chain tube (or two). Are you saying that the return portion of your chain is hanging unsupported?

I meant the full length chain tubes, not the little guide in your picture-I have retained that albeit shortened a bit.

This picture shows what I meant

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw2cTKSqkfZ_O260mfiudZW5&ust=1559689682551634

 

[Osiris]

I meant the full length chain tubes, not the little guide in your picture-I have retained that albeit shortened a bit.

This picture shows what I meant

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjVs-H9ts7iAhWHVN8KHTrnDxwQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http://mccraw.co.uk/m5-carbon-high-racer-review/&psig=AOvVaw2cTKSqkfZ_O260mfiudZW5&ust=1559689682551634

No point to using the long chain tube unless you plan to attach the clamp to lift the chain above the front tire.

With all that tubing, it's no wonder he complains about a noisy drive train.

One comment he makes later in the article caught my attention:

"You can of course drop down to a smaller wheel, like a 650 or 26″, but beware! For mortal cyclists who are not putting in massive wattage, rolling resistance is a huge component of performance and it scales roughly in reverse proportion to the size of your wheels. In this great topic on BROL, we see a more aerodynamic Velokraft VK2 lowracer is not actually faster than a Zockra highracer until somewhere around 300W, way beyond the sustainable power for most riders. This is because 50% more rolling resistance is more than offsetting the aero benefit."

Now I've never compared the two bents he mentions, but I can say without the slightest reservation that despite it's small 20" front wheel, my M1 low racer is significantly faster than the M5 even at power levels well below 200 watts. For example, my average speed on a four mile segment on the M1 was 26.4 mph @186 watts. My all time best on the M5 at that speed was 212 watts. It does vary somewhat, but at the power levels that I usually use in testing (150-260 watts), the M1 is consistently ~2 mph faster.

 

[ed72]

I am sure the M1 is so much faster.

There is a crossover point where aero trumps the linear factors, but it should be on an apples to apples comparison. Same bike. I doubt there is anyway to make your V20, M5, or Bruscetta CA2 as fast as the M1. You can rice out a very fine Corvette but it will never be an F1. Like not really fair to compare. I have been so focused on the motor this year that I have forgotten my power/speed numbers.

I found some numbers comparing wheels. I averaged 22.1 mph on 119 watts and also 20.6 mph on 103 watts on the other set over a long distance in calm conditions. A 3-4 watt advantage gained by the wheels. In cross winds, different story. Anyway. I am more interesting in those pedestrialian speeds. IIRC I did 29.1 mph on 10 mile TT on 247 watts. There could have been 2-4 mph wind, the numbers suggest so. It seemed calm. I should be able to hold 285-300 watts now and probably 30.2 mph or thereabouts. I have to check FTP but should be at least 280 now. I just need a good day and some less fatigue to give it a go. I want to go under 20 minutes for 10 miles, I might be close.

 

[Osiris]

I am sure the M1 is so much faster.

There is a crossover point where aero trumps the linear factors, but it should be on an apples to apples comparison. Same bike. I doubt there is anyway to make your V20, M5, or Bruscetta CA2 as fast as the M1. You can rice out a very fine Corvette but it will never be an F1. Like not really fair to compare. I have been so focused on the motor this year that I have forgotten my power/speed numbers.

I found some numbers comparing wheels. I averaged 22.1 mph on 119 watts and also 20.6 mph on 103 watts on the other set over a long distance in calm conditions. A 3-4 watt advantage gained by the wheels. In cross winds, different story. Anyway. I am more interesting in those pedestrialian speeds. IIRC I did 29.1 mph on 10 mile TT on 247 watts. There could have been 2-4 mph wind, the numbers suggest so. It seemed calm. I should be able to hold 285-300 watts now and probably 30.2 mph or thereabouts. I have to check FTP but should be at least 280 now. I just need a good day and some less fatigue to give it a go. I want to go under 20 minutes for 10 miles, I might be close.

Now that I've pretty much figured out what the M5 and M1 can do for shorter segments, I want to turn my attention to much longer distances. The handlebar changes I made to the M5 have transformed it from something I only wanted to ride in order to take KOM's to something I feel confident riding pretty much anywhere. That's actually beginning to worry me, because it now threatens the favored position held by my V20. The M1 of course will always remain a one trick pony suitable only for the track or lightly trafficked bike trails.

 

[ed72]

is the M5 definitively faster with the machine gun bars? I have the parts to do it, I also have an A911 fork and Cane Creek viscoset HS to dump in. I suck at mechanics these days, just need to do it. There is a 10 mi TT this weekend near me that lets bents it, I might do it except I would rather ride long distances.

would that gummer approach work on the V20? (sorry if stupid question)

 

[Osiris]

is the M5 definitively faster with the machine gun bars?

No question about it. I'm now able to sustain speeds over long distances (for me, not you) that I never could manage with the old setup. Unfortunately I can't be more precise than that because I never had the opportunity to do back to back coast down tests, so I can't tell you how many watts I'm saving. But if you need convincing, try coasting down one of the longer hills in your area and run some experiments using just one hand. Pay attention to how much more air resistance there is with your palm facing forward than with the blade of your hand facing forward. It's dramatically different, probably worth that 0.5 mph you mentioned earlier.

For me it's not just about the faster speeds I'm able to get, it's that the new setup has completely eliminated the twitchy and unpredictable front end my M5 suffered from, which made it very scary in the turns and crosswinds. When I asked Ben why he'd sold his M5, his answer was much the same: the handling was terrible compared to the V20. The gunner bar arrangement is also a lot more comfortable to hold onto for long rides, and with the etap blip buttons, shifting gears no longer causes unwanted steering inputs. But I hasten to add that not every M5 rider I've talked to had similar complaints, so YMMV.

would that gummer approach work on the V20? (sorry if stupid question)

According to Larry, no. He mentioned a while back that the stubby handlebars he put on his race bike make it difficult to steer, even on the track. You'll notice that his road going V20 still has the stock handlebars, probably for this reason. I remember once trying to move my hands inward while riding my V20 to see if Larry's shortened handlebars would work for me. Coasting was fine, but trying to pedal it that way caused so much front end wobble that I nearly crashed. I just didn't have the leverage to counteract the effect of pedal steer.

 

[ed72]

I hear you. I am going to be experimenting with different forks. I have some speed shimmy that developed recently making riding no hands pretty hard and the handling is different. I used to be able to ride it no hands while pedaling but can't figure out what happened. I'm sure that Visco headset or different fork will fix it at this point. Not a huge problem but it is hard to take a nap while riding now. I have swapped wheels, tires, replaced wheel bearings, changed skewers, and rerouted cables thinking they would be providing positive feedback. The only other recumbent I owned was a Baron low racer. It handled slow speeds better but high speeds worse but nice overall. I sold it because the handle bar arrangement was painful, my arms did not rest on my gut like they do with the M5 and I could not adjust for comfort. It is also possible that the really heavy Rotor RS4X crank is the culprit.

If I can get my hands/palms like you said and pull the elbows in and if it is comfortable, I'll give the gunners a go. Knee clearance is probably going to be the issue. I might try the stock M5 seat again now that I have lost 25 pounds (10-15 more to go).

I am pretty sure my goal of 24 mph on 140 watts ain't going to happen but now that the weather has changed, I can get calm days to test. I bought the Castelli Aero Race 6 jersey, it is fast but totally unsuitable for recumbents. The breathing is all thru the back and the front has a weird textured fabric that does not breath, I hate it but it is fast as stink. A waste of $150. Maybe I can still lose enough weight to get into my old kit.

 

[Osiris]

I hear you. I am going to be experimenting with different forks. I have some speed shimmy that developed recently making riding no hands pretty hard and the handling is different. I used to be able to ride it no hands while pedaling but can't figure out what happened. I'm sure that Visco headset or different fork will fix it at this point. Not a huge problem but it is hard to take a nap while riding now. I have swapped wheels, tires, replaced wheel bearings, changed skewers, and rerouted cables thinking they would be providing positive feedback. The only other recumbent I owned was a Baron low racer. It handled slow speeds better but high speeds worse but nice overall. I sold it because the handle bar arrangement was painful, my arms did not rest on my gut like they do with the M5 and I could not adjust for comfort. It is also possible that the really heavy Rotor RS4X crank is the culprit.

If I can get my hands/palms like you said and pull the elbows in and if it is comfortable, I'll give the gunners a go. Knee clearance is probably going to be the issue. I might try the stock M5 seat again now that I have lost 25 pounds (10-15 more to go).

I am pretty sure my goal of 24 mph on 140 watts ain't going to happen but now that the weather has changed, I can get calm days to test. I bought the Castelli Aero Race 6 jersey, it is fast but totally unsuitable for recumbents. The breathing is all thru the back and the front has a weird textured fabric that does not breath, I hate it but it is fast as stink. A waste of $150. Maybe I can still lose enough weight to get into my old kit.

Strange that it started happening without you having made any changes to the bike. The instability you describe isn't at all like what I experienced. In my case, the problem was that the front wheel wanted to flop to the right or left the moment you let go of the handlebars. Even with both hands on the bars, it required a lot of concentration to negotiate tight turns. "Wheel flop" is a very common complaint on various motorcycle forums, and if I remember correctly it happens when the fork doesn't have enough trail. Whatever the problem was, the new handlebar configuration seems to have largely eliminated it. I can now comfortably pilot it one handed, which would have been unthinkable before. Since there has been no change to the bike's overall geometry, I suspect the reason for the increased feeling of stability comes from the fact that I'm now able to get a much better grip on the bars, and that my hands are closer to me than before, which results in better leverage and diminishes the effects of minor steering inputs. I think the distance between my hands has something to do with it as well. Measured from center to center, they are the same width apart as before, but since the hands are now vertical rather than horizontal, the distance between my hands measured from outside to outside is greater than before, resulting in better leverage. The difference is probably no more than an inch or so, but having experimented with hand spacing on the M1, I've seen how drastic a difference an inch can make.

But again, I don't want to make any predictions that you'll have identical results. I weigh less than you do, I'm three inches shorter, and have a different seat. As a result, my CoG is bound to be different from yours, which can have a big effect on handling.

 

[ed72]

Very interesting, you have a good understanding of handling dynamics.

I had also added the ventotist pad on top of the 1/4 inch yoga pad. I can ride one handed and have none of the handling behaviour you describe. I have also lost 20-25 pounds and I had put the Thor seat on last Fall. The Thor seems to put me in a more rearward bias on the bike.

I have two forks with less rake than the stock (more trail) to try. The Viscoset headset was designed specifically for e-bikes with shimmy. I can start the wobble at will and also stop it. Key is to stay relaxed and it is easily controlled. If the forks and new headset don't cure it, I will throw the stock seat back on. I wish I remember when the shimmy started. It always had a little shimmy but it has gotten worse. The Thor seat puts the weight more rearward, I think. I am sure Balor could solve my problem in his sleep. I cranked the HS down much more than proper and the high speed behavior is a little better, so, it could be the headset for sure but I am skeptical. I just suspect something wonky with the fork. Maybe airlines or Fedex tweaked it during transport. It isn't like I have ever crashed or anything.

 

[Osiris]

Very interesting, you have a good understanding of handling dynamics.

I had also added the ventotist pad on top of the 1/4 inch yoga pad. I can ride one handed and have none of the handling behaviour you describe. I have also lost 20-25 pounds and I had put the Thor seat on last Fall. The Thor seems to put me in a more rearward bias on the bike.

That can make a big difference. The Railgun seat moved me about 2" to the rear. I couldn't believe how much this improved the bike's handling. JS had drilled out the stock seat to put me as far forward as he though practical in order to get the requisite pedal clearance, but being much taller and heavier than I am, he probably didn't realize what an adverse effect this would have on weight distribution. Almost any application of the rear brake would cause it to lock up. In one case I took a right hander using no brakes and the rear tire slid out from under me. With the Railgun seat the M5 felt very neutral in turns, although the problem of wheel flop remained until I got rid of the stock tiller assembly. I might even be able to pedal it no hands, though I'm in no hurry to try it.

I have two forks with less rake than the stock (more trail) to try. The Viscoset headset was designed specifically for e-bikes with shimmy. I can start the wobble at will and also stop it. Key is to stay relaxed and it is easily controlled. If the forks and new headset don't cure it, I will throw the stock seat back on. I wish I remember when the shimmy started. It always had a little shimmy but it has gotten worse. The Thor seat puts the weight more rearward, I think.

This may not apply to your M5, but some motorcyclists have reported experiencing front wheel shimmy after adding luggage to the back. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I can see why moving the CoG away from the front wheel might cause that sort of instability.

I am sure Balor could solve my problem in his sleep.

Speaking of which, what ever happened to Balor? I haven't seen any postings from him in months.