Test riding a true racing recumbent

[ed72]

Maybe I'll try removing the tailbox as an experiment.

I have been in touch with Balor. He went radio silent on all forums. He's busy handling stuff. Hope he comes back soon. He helped me tremendously. It has taken me two full years for my bent legs to arrive from Santa. I am only a few watts lower than my upright days, just a good taper away. No question, Balor helped me enormously. I am not going to be able to do the PBP I wanted due to other health issues, but I will successfully complete that hilly SOB.

Stability on two wheels and the mathematical models are very complex, incomplete, and subject to lots of discussion amongst the truly smart dudes. I'm not going to pretend to have the answer even though I had trudged my way through several graduate level engineering control systems courses decades ago. There's like 10 degrees of freedom flying around the bike. Not easy to model. Anyway, I do not notice any wheel flop on mine at all but then again, I steer by leaning almost exclusively and tend to come in hot and sit right up like a goose landing on the lake. I do have some wheel flop on my custom designed and built Zinn magnesium framed upright that I had built for TransAm bike race. However, this was my choice. I wanted a bike that was absolutely rock stable at extreme speeds descending and stable at speed in wind. I have 70-71 mm of trail on it and the wheel base is also long. I never intended to ride it slow and therefore the wheel flop isn't even a minor annoyance; rather, it is a design trade-off that I accepted out of the box or more properly, I created it by my demand. I see the M5 slack angles and wheelbase similarly. It is flat and windy in Holland. If you look at all the bikes over there in person (the commuter ones), they have like 68 degree head tubes and hugely raked forks with huge tires. The V20 has a shorter wheel base and it looks to have tighter angles up front and I would guess it would be much, much easier to maneuver in parking lots or low speed twisties. I guess I think of the V20 as the Porsche 930 to the M5 as the F40. Both take some skill but different skill to handle their respective design tradeoffs. Who jumps into either and is off and away without some learning. I could not imagine commuting on the M5 into Manhattan for instance but on the open road, it steers itself and there is no question the V20 has its particular sweet spots aligned with its design choices. Horses for courses. Your M1 has even more narrow constraints and uses.

In my estimation, the only two stock and readily available true racing recumbents are the M5 and V20.

Bikes like Zoncha, M1, Magic, or any of the Morciglios, and the very special Troytecs from Bavaria are so practically one-off limited, that they really don't count to the more pedestrian of us like me. I did scour the internet for a particular Troytec but then learned only several or a handful were made.

 

[Osiris]

Maybe I'll try removing the tailbox as an experiment.

I have been in touch with Balor. He went radio silent on all forums. He's busy handling stuff. Hope he comes back soon.

Good to hear that he's not in some Siberian gulag, as I'd feared.

Stability on two wheels and the mathematical models are very complex, incomplete, and subject to lots of discussion amongst the truly smart dudes.

Oh yes, I well remember all the lengthy and detailed discussions between the engineers on various motorcycle forums. There seemed to be profound differences of opinion about even the most basic stuff, like what exactly makes a motorcycle turn. Some of them took diametrically opposite positions, yet each side had reams of painstaking mathematical analysis to "prove" that their view was the correct one.

I'm not going to pretend to have the answer even though I had trudged my way through several graduate level engineering control systems courses decades ago. There's like 10 degrees of freedom flying around the bike. Not easy to model. Anyway, I do not notice any wheel flop on mine at all but then again, I steer by leaning almost exclusively and tend to come in hot and sit right up like a goose landing on the lake. I do have some wheel flop on my custom designed and built Zinn magnesium framed upright that I had built for TransAm bike race. However, this was my choice. I wanted a bike that was absolutely rock stable at extreme speeds descending and stable at speed in wind. I have 70-71 mm of trail on it and the wheel base is also long. I never intended to ride it slow and therefore the wheel flop isn't even a minor annoyance; rather, it is a design trade-off that I accepted out of the box or more properly, I created it by my demand. I see the M5 slack angles and wheelbase similarly. It is flat and windy in Holland. If you look at all the bikes over there in person (the commuter ones), they have like 68 degree head tubes and hugely raked forks with huge tires.

I lived in Amsterdam for a couple of years. The typical bicycle you see on the street is designed to be ridden by almost anyone for any purpose, including 80 year old grandmothers carrying bags of groceries home over cobblestone roads. Here's a picture I took close to where I used to live:

The V20 has a shorter wheel base and it looks to have tighter angles up front and I would guess it would be much, much easier to maneuver in parking lots or low speed twisties. I guess I think of the V20 as the Porsche 930 to the M5 as the F40. Both take some skill but different skill to handle their respective design tradeoffs. Who jumps into either and is off and away without some learning. I could not imagine commuting on the M5 into Manhattan for instance but on the open road, it steers itself and there is no question the V20 has its particular sweet spots aligned with its design choices.

For a long time I was under the impression that my M5 just wasn't intended for "real world" riding. It's unpredictable handling combined with the chain interference on tight right handers sapped so much of my concentration that it just wasn't fun to ride except when going fast in a straight line. I held that view until the day I rode with Kent Polk, and observed how effortlessly he was able to pilot his M5, even one handed. He rode it with the same detachment that I experience when riding my upright, like the bike just does whatever you're thinking without you having to do anything. I still haven't acquired anywhere near the skill Kent has, but the new handlebars have all but erased the bad memories from previous years. The V20 is still the more "user friendly" of the two, but I can no longer think of any environment in which I wouldn't do nearly as well on the M5.

Bikes like Zoncha, M1, Magic, or any of the Morciglios, and the very special Troytecs from Bavaria are so practically one-off limited, that they really don't count to the more pedestrian of us like me. I did scour the internet for a particular Troytec but then learned only several or a handful were made.

Isn't Troytec out of business? I thought they closed their doors last year when its founder found a lucrative job elsewhere. Kent teamed up with a couple of engineers in Ohio to design and build their own recumbent based around his Railgun seat, but it's taking much longer to complete than he ever imagined. The design was finished last year, but apparently the cost of building one and the difficulty of finding skilled craftsmen willing to work for little or no pay is causing serious delays. If he ever does get the prototype built, it may turn out to be the only one of its kind.

 

[ed72]

Troytec and Zoncha are both closed, I was looking for used. There is a 700M for sale in France right now, a steal at 3000 euro.

I was trying to say only V20 and M5 are readily available new on the market. If one is willing to wait, the other alternative obviously is a John Mirciglio bike. Even if Mr. Polk successfully gets something made, it would be a one off, right?

I did my 10 mile TT today. Wasn't planning on it. Pretty still winds, warm, and humid. I made more power than last year but 30 seconds slower. I was wearing a normal jersey and the bike was still setup for randonneuring. But, 30 seconds is a lot worse especially with more power and 20 pounds lighter. Part of it has to be the seat and cushion, I just feel higher and must be catching more wind.

 

[Osiris]

Troytec and Zoncha are both closed, I was looking for used. There is a 700M for sale in France right now, a steal at 3000 euro.

I was trying to say only V20 and M5 are readily available new on the market. If one is willing to wait, the other alternative obviously is a John Mirciglio bike. Even if Mr. Polk successfully gets something made, it would be a one off, right?

Kent told me that the plan was to sell them commercially, assuming they could be built at a competitive price. His original plan was to have John Morciglio build the prototype, but apparently they had different visions of what it should be, so Kent undertook the task of building it himself. Apparently it's designed to be an improved M5, not a narrow focus racer like the M1, but that's all he would tell me.

I did my 10 mile TT today. Wasn't planning on it. Pretty still winds, warm, and humid. I made more power than last year but 30 seconds slower. I was wearing a normal jersey and the bike was still setup for randonneuring. But, 30 seconds is a lot worse especially with more power and 20 pounds lighter. Part of it has to be the seat and cushion, I just feel higher and must be catching more wind.

Unless your seating posture changed, a 30 second difference is hard to account for. Are you sure you weren't riding into a mild headwind? Last weekend I rode a Strava segment which is lined on one side by telephone poles, all of which have plastic ribbons tied around them. It's convenient for me because I use those ribbons to gauge both wind direction and speed when I'm out there running tests. Last week the ribbons were hardly moving, and what little wind there was was traveling about 50 degrees to my left. I didn't think I'd see much effect from that, but that tiny amount of wind enabled me to cruise at 27 mph on only 222 watts! Now I'm worried that all my previous power/speed data is suspect, having seen how much of an impact a barely perceptible puff of air can have on the results.

 

[ed72]

Unless your seating posture changed, a 30 second difference is hard to account for. Are you sure you weren't riding into a mild headwind?

Possibly.

I usually wear the skinsuit but just a normal jersey today. I was slower on more power and less weight. Disappointing for sure.

 

[Osiris]

Possibly.

I usually wear the skinsuit but just a normal jersey today. I was slower on more power and less weight. Disappointing for sure.

The news isn't actually that bad. At least you know that there's nothing wrong with the most important component of the bike: the engine. Could the skinsuit alone account for the 30 second difference?

I got rid of the old 33mm front tire and put on a new 35mm GP4000s II. Contrary to what the article above suggests, the M5's fork has plenty of clearance for a fat tire up front. The clearance in back is much tighter, but my dial caliper tells me it should accommodate a 35mm tire, which is about as wide as I want to go anyway. I can't be certain of it, but based on this morning's ride, the 35mm seemed to make the ride a bit smoother. Speed was really good. I moved up from 12th to 4th place on one segment and tied my KOM on another one.

 

[ed72]

Congrats.

The rear width is good but with width comes height. I am going to try the new GP5000 28 mm in the back, it should fit. The old 25 mm Conti GP4000 just fit but it was a puff doughboy at 29.5 mm with latex tubes on the Belgium plus rims.

I am not sure but don't think the skinsuit would get me 30 seconds, plus you have to realize the lower weight also gained me time, so, the aero effects cost me probably 40-50 seconds. The Rotor RS4x crank is not pretty to the air. I also had my slow helmet on. Oh ya, my halter monitor was duck taped to the tailbox. Cardiologist told me to ride as hard and as much as possible and live normal....my ticker flatlines (just stops completely) a couple times per night for 6 or so seconds, which is why I am so tired and bitchy...so he says. Have to ditch that thing, it is slowing me down.

 

[Osiris]

Congrats.

The rear width is good but with width comes height. I am going to try the new GP5000 28 mm in the back, it should fit. The old 25 mm Conti GP4000 just fit but it was a puff doughboy at 29.5 mm with latex tubes on the Belgium plus rims.

Let me know if it fits. My back wheel is nearing the point where it needs to be replaced, but I want to make sure the 25 mm will fit before I try it. Strange how fat the 35 mm tire looks compared to the 23. I imagine a 28 mm must look like mountain bike tire by comparison.

I am not sure but don't think the skinsuit would get me 30 seconds, plus you have to realize the lower weight also gained me time, so, the aero effects cost me probably 40-50 seconds. The Rotor RS4x crank is not pretty to the air. I also had my slow helmet on.

A slow helmet can kill your times. I ditched mine after seeing how Phil's racing helmet gained me about 1/2 mph in top speed. I can't recall a single piece of equipment that has ever made as much of a performance difference.

Oh ya, my halter monitor was duck taped to the tailbox. Cardiologist told me to ride as hard and as much as possible and live normal....my ticker flatlines (just stops completely) a couple times per night for 6 or so seconds, which is why I am so tired and bitchy...so he says. Have to ditch that thing, it is slowing me down.

One of my motorcycling buddies has the same heart issue, although in his case it also stops briefly while he's performing his daily activities. He says it just makes him feel a bit light headed for a couple of seconds, but it doesn't seem to concern him.

 

[ed72]

I put the new headset in. Much improved steering response. I suppose the Cane Creek Viscoset could be likened to a steering damper. It makes the steering "heavy" in one sense and I only have one 50 mile ride in with it. It also seems to improve high speed stability in gusty crosswinds. The shimmy is gone. I am definitely out of practice riding no hands. Just the 30 minutes bending down has me with ruined with incredible nausea and head/eye pain this morning. I can't do that TT this morning.

The A911 fork needs a special T925 TRP TT brake. I thought my T925 might fit but the TT version has an extended drop to it. I could use Sheldon's nuts and pad extenders (I have both) but then it is getting one Kludge too many.

I think I might have figured out some lost aerodynamics. With the tailbox mounted to the Thor seat, the top cover and body extend about 2-3 inches above my shoulder whereas it should be about level ideally for smooth airflow but also the cover has a lip that really catches air (mine was ruined by a truck). My aerojacket is also loosening and isn't tight to the rims. I took off the lights and wore the good helmet yesterday (no skinsuit). It is around 0.08 CdA loss....from 0.152 down (up) to 0.160. Yes, I am whining but that is alot to throw away. It means an extra 5 watts at 20 mph and around 0.3-0.4 mph at TT speeds. So, I have some work just to get back my bike back to where it was last summer/fall.

My silly goal of 24 mph on 140 watts on a warm humid day is looking dim, probably more like 155 watts but that is too much power for me for long ride. 40-50% of FTP is all one can hope for on very long rides. What's 1 extra MPH? A bit audacious but I am not giving up yet.

 

[Osiris]

Yeah, those things you report can really slow you down. I'm surprised you only gained 30 seconds with all that additional drag; it sounds like it should have been worse.

I took the Specialized Venge out this morning. The weather channel predicted passing showers, and I didn't want to do another long ride lying on a wet sponge. My power output on the DF is freakishly high compared to what I'm seeing on any of my bents, and I'm using the same Vector pedals on all of them. I noticed that 300 watts is ridiculously easy to manage on my upright. It feels like doing 200 watts on a recumbent. I blew away my all time record on one of my favorite hills, averaging close to 500 watts all the way up. The best I've ever done there on a recumbent was 395 watts. Speeds of course weren't comparable; even with less power the M5 makes the Venge feel like it's going backward. My average power output over the two hour ride was 273 watts, which I'm pretty sure is a personal best on that loop. There were many sections where I wasn't pushing all that hard, so I imagine my FTP on an upright must be at least 300W by now. It's nowhere near that on a bent, regrettably, and I'm losing hope that it ever will be.

On the way back, I met a retired racer and rode 15 miles with him back to the parking lot. The dude was 59, but still had a racer's physique: zero body fat and muscular legs. I'm sure he's the reason my average power was so high; I really had to push myself to the max to just to stay with him.

 

[ed72]

Cool. I should try my DF, it hasn't been out in 18 months or so. I could find it if I looked hard but there are a couple studies showing greater aerobic improvement exercising in the supine (bent) position that results in even greater improvement in the upright position. So, your 273 watts for 2 hours doesn't surprise me.

I was stopped at my coffee shop for some of Maria's homemade applecake, the TT was over and who was in there wearing one of her 42....yes, forty two....National Champions jerseys but Betty Tyrell. We commiserated over the horrendous pollen this year and chatted about racing, etc. She is 70 and going to Colorado to defend her TT and RR National Champion. I used to ride with her in the 80's and 90's....or more properly, I used to suck her wheel.

My results were absolutely even worse today. The motor is good but I screwed the bike up somehow. Something is wrong. Although there was a side wind off my right and then off my left after the turn around. I know the tailbox is slow in crosswinds but man, I am discouraged.

 

[Osiris]

Cool. I should try my DF, it hasn't been out in 18 months or so. I could find it if I looked hard but there are a couple studies showing greater aerobic improvement exercising in the supine (bent) position that results in even greater improvement in the upright position. So, your 273 watts for 2 hours doesn't surprise me.

If accurate, it's a whopping 100W improvement over the last FTP test I did way back in 2014, before I started riding recumbents. Though I do occasionally ride the Venge just for a change of pace, I hadn't seen numbers like this before because I only ride it on "recovery" days when my power levels are down and my legs are still killing me from the previous day's effort. This time I was rained out on Saturday, so I was fully rested by Sunday morning. There were headwinds most of the way, so I decided not to pay any attention to speed and focus on power output instead. The power numbers weren't particularly unusual, but the length of time I could maintain them certainly was. I'm thinking now that it might be interesting to climb back on the TT bike and see what I can do on it. In full aero position, it's about 2 mph slower than the M5 in a coast down test, but that extra 100 watts (assuming I can duplicate Saturday's numbers on my TT bike) should in theory make me faster on the TT bike than on the M5. I'm skeptical, but it's worth a try.

I was stopped at my coffee shop for some of Maria's homemade applecake, the TT was over and who was in there wearing one of her 42....yes, forty two....National Champions jerseys but Betty Tyrell. We commiserated over the horrendous pollen this year and chatted about racing, etc. She is 70 and going to Colorado to defend her TT and RR National Champion. I used to ride with her in the 80's and 90's....or more properly, I used to suck her wheel.

Believe it or not, the oldest participant in the last Orlando Airport time trial was an 83 year old man. I know a couple of octogenarians who still ride, but they're on e-bikes, not competing in time trials. Then there's the local marathoner who still competes at the age of 91. I saw her training on a local trail last year and chatted with her a bit. Apparently she's been running and winning marathons for half a century and doesn't plan to quit any time soon.

My results were absolutely even worse today. The motor is good but I screwed the bike up somehow. Something is wrong. Although there was a side wind off my right and then off my left after the turn around. I know the tailbox is slow in crosswinds but man, I am discouraged.

You shouldn't be, though. You already know how fast you were even when you weren't as strong a rider, so now it's merely a matter of figuring out what's different about the bent and putting it back the way it was. It's not as if you've been training hard, only to realize that you're in worse shape now than before. Now that would be truly discouraging!

 

[ed72]

Speaking of old timers. In 2015 during Paris Brest Paris, I stood on the bridge crossing into Brest about 22 hours after the start. I was speaking to a French Rider in my pigeon French. He asks me what kind of time I was planning to do (PBP is 1230 km and 37,000 feet of climbing). I did not know what to say, so, I asked him his plans. He lamented that in his old age, he no longer could do PBP nonstop and has to sleep a full night and was shooting for 63-64 hours. I asked him how many PBPs he had done (held every 4 years, previously every 5 years). I think he said 11. I asked him how old, and he rifled it off....I think he said soixante-onze. 71!! His legs were chiseled and cut with vascularity that had to be seen to believed. A lifetime of athleticism (an good genes). Going 380 miles and 18,500 feet of climbing in 22-23 hours at that age is mind blowing.

Interested to see you TT results in the DF. I suspect if I got back onto the upright, I'd be surprised with the results, too.

Your point is well taken, I can figure out what I did to screw my bike up in a few weeks whereas fixing a bad motor can take half a year or more. I really had only been paying attention to my climbing times and not looking at my flat speed at all. PBP is nothing but hills, so, I am spending a lot of time on skills and outright climbing speeds.

The headset is a keeper for sure. I have a couple 35-40 mph rollers that open into fields that have strong crosswinds that normally are a huge handful to control but much less so with that viscoset.

 

[Osiris]

Speaking of old timers. In 2015 during Paris Brest Paris, I stood on the bridge crossing into Brest about 22 hours after the start. I was speaking to a French Rider in my pigeon French. He asks me what kind of time I was planning to do (PBP is 1230 km and 37,000 feet of climbing). I did not know what to say, so, I asked him his plans. He lamented that in his old age, he no longer could do PBP nonstop and has to sleep a full night and was shooting for 63-64 hours. I asked him how many PBPs he had done (held every 4 years, previously every 5 years). I think he said 11. I asked him how old, and he rifled it off....I think he said soixante-onze. 71!! His legs were chiseled and cut with vascularity that had to be seen to believed. A lifetime of athleticism (an good genes). Going 380 miles and 18,500 feet of climbing in 22-23 hours at that age is mind blowing.

It would be mind blowing to me at the age of 18. It's amazing what the human body is capable of. Some time ago I happened across a Youtube video of an "old guy" doing an FTP test. He had once been a pro racer and won the championship of Ireland, but had retired from racing in 1993, if I remember right. By the time the video was made he was in dreadful shape, looking like he'd spent the past two decades lying on the couch and living on beer and pizza. I was thinking how reckless it was to have someone that obese do an FTP test, and that it would be a miracle if he survived the first five minutes of it without suffering cardiac arrest. Amazingly, he made it through the entire test (a full hour FTP test, I think). More amazing still was the power he was able to produce. I think he ended up with an average in the range of 360 watts! That's genetics for you.

Your point is well taken, I can figure out what I did to screw my bike up in a few weeks whereas fixing a bad motor can take half a year or more. I really had only been paying attention to my climbing times and not looking at my flat speed at all. PBP is nothing but hills, so, I am spending a lot of time on skills and outright climbing speeds.

Have you heard of a race that starts in Norway and ends somewhere in Italy? I had read about it when I first got into recumbents, but I don't remember the details. The article caught my eye because most of the competitors rode recumbents.

The headset is a keeper for sure. I have a couple 35-40 mph rollers that open into fields that have strong crosswinds that normally are a huge handful to control but much less so with that viscoset.

I'm going to ask the local shop about the Cane Creek Viscoset. My M1 could certainly benefit from more front end stability in crosswinds. It certainly corners much better than I would expect, given it's long wheelbase and low C0G, but it always takes me a while to acclimate to its sensitive steering before I'm willing to try negotiating turns at high speeds.

 

[ed72]

More amazing still was the power he was able to produce. I think he ended up with an average in the range of 360 watts! That's genetics for you

e

Good genes helps.

This race?

http://www.northcape-tarifa.com/

I'd like to hear from any recumbent rider who can manage steep switchbacks at the end of a 200 mile day after already having done 3-4,000 miles. Not USA ones, the ones in Europe like the Stelvio. You're climbing 8-10% and then those corners are sharp and more like 15% briefly. I can do them on an upright but no way for me on a racing recumbent, especially on an ultra endurance level race.

 

[ed72]

I'm going to ask the local shop about the Cane Creek Viscoset. My M1 could certainly benefit from more front end stability in crosswinds.

I found that a strong gust of wind used to jerk the wheel and the bars. This headset slows that response quite a bit. It does not remove it.For me, the key thing is that the "startle response" is gone. I have to admit to practicing a lot in very windy conditions, so, I am getting better but the headset helps high speed stability. I have to test it on steep climbs. 4 mph is sort of my low limit before balance becomes a challenge. This gets me up most hills but long 15-20% climbs? I'm walking.

 

[Osiris]

I found that a strong gust of wind used to jerk the wheel and the bars. This headset slows that response quite a bit. It does not remove it.For me, the key thing is that the "startle response" is gone. I have to admit to practicing a lot in very windy conditions, so, I am getting better but the headset helps high speed stability. I have to test it on steep climbs. 4 mph is sort of my low limit before balance becomes a challenge. This gets me up most hills but long 15-20% climbs? I'm walking.

The M1 suffers from the fact that it's low center of gravity makes it quite "tippy", especially at low speeds, plus the full disk wheels and frame which don't allow the wind any way through. A sudden crosswind can run you right off the trail.

A steep climb for me is 8%. I'm not doing any climb that I can't do in the large cog. I once did a 17% climb on the V20 and the front tire was constantly losing traction, especially when hitting ripples in the pavement or sand. I had to pedal very slowly trying to keep the power output even to stop the slippage, but that meant crawling up that steep hill at a speed barely sufficient to keep the bent upright (about 4 mph). Interestingly enough, I had assumed that I could climb at much slower speeds on my upright because it's so much easier to balance than a recumbent, but that turned out not to be true. Last week at just below 4 mph, I noticed that I could no longer keep the bike tracking in a straight line. Not sure why, because on the flats I can keep it rolling at less than 1 mph.

 

[ed72]

I think the Viscoset was $70-80, I put it in myself. After riding in very gusty 15-25 mph winds yesterday, I am convinced it is helpful. What used to happen in gusty winds when a truck of fast moving vehicle goes by was I would be jerked (when riding at speed). Was this merely due to steering response? I dunno. I still feel a pulling and which wheels also matter, but that pulling is muted and slowed. I am in more control. There is also a confidence factor for sure. It take that to ride 30+ in gusty winds with a deep dish front wheel and disc in the back. The HS adds maybe 30 grams of extra weight....just a guess. I would not ever consider it on any of my uprights. If you think about it. Try balancing a broom on your finger tip. No problem. Try that with a Pencil. This explains the ease of balancing an upright vs a low center of gravity recumbent. I can do a trackstand on all of my uprights. I can't even dream of that on my bent. A perturbation traveling in reverse is met with an over exaggerated human response, which is why I *think* the Viscoset helps me. It became apparent yesterday going thru a section of the River road cut thru the cliffs where wind is treacherous and it is downhill and the road surface is lousy and it is narrower. I actually wiped pollen from my eyes on that section, riding one handed. I did is subconsciously and then I was like.....what are you doing. It became clear to me that my level of control at speed in unpredictable wind is better with that HS. 50%? 30% Certainly not more than 50% but personally, I notice it.

 

[Osiris]

The relatively small gyroscopic effect of the M1's front wheel and extremely low CoG probably account for it's instability at low speeds. If you watch videos of Mike Mowett and others riding their lowracers on the track, you'll notice how they wobble from side to side with each pedal stroke. Mine does that as well, and it's something I find very disconcerting.

Two things make an upright much easier to balance. One is their high CoG, as you noted, the other is that you can move your upper body around like a counter-weight because it's not attached to any part of the bike. I can do that to a certain degree on the V20 by lifting my torso off the seat, making it the easiest of all my bents to start from a complete stop. The CA2 was even better in that respect because the style of handlebars it has makes it possible to sit completely upright. No need to ever do a track stand on a recumbent I suppose, but Kent P. tells me he can climb hills at only 2 mph on his M5, so that's one of my goals.

I'm going to call the shop that does the work on my M1 to see if the Viscoset will fit it. It has a Cane Creek headset now, but I don't know if they're dimensionally identical.

 

[ed72]

When you lift your torso, you're the broom analogy. When you are fully reclined, you're the pencil.

When cornering slowly on bumpy roads, say making a sharp right after stop sign, I always sit up because it makes much easier to handle the bike.

The 406 front wheeled Baron I had could be easily maneuvered, such as making a U turn on relatively narrow roads. No way on the M5. I have alsways suspected the V20 would be stellar at slow speeds and U turns, etc.

2 mph hill climbing on an 8 degree seated M5? I don't believe it. Gliding in a parking lot at 2 mph? Sure but who cares. Climbing a 15% slope at 250-300 watts at 2 mph? I'd have to see it with my own eyes. Just a professional thing.....In God we trust, all others bring data. Not saying you heard it wrong, but something doesn't square for me on climbing at 2 mph on an M5. It might be due to using GPS for speed, which is inaccurate at those speeds. A wheel sensor is necessary to measure at such slow speeds.