Test riding a true racing recumbent

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I think it will work. I use it. When I was being fit to a TT frame, Dean told me he always tests gear and positions during recovery type riding days on such routes. He did win the Masters National TT championship, so, I suspect you should be fine. It is important to recognize the utility is not in establish an absolute CdA but to compare relative changes from one setup to the next on the same day.

Note: Just don't be too quick to draw a conclusion if you get small differences. Many runs and multiple days could be required to get the confidence with small improvement.

https://fitwerx.com/ask-fitwerx-article-archive/your-power-meter-is-the-best-wind-tunnel-available/

That article is much easier to understand than Chung's, thanks. I may know of a road that would work well for this sort of test, but a couple of things I have questions about are:

1. Does it matter how long the test segment is?
2. Does it matter how fast you go?

With respect to #2, I'm reminded of the time when I compared a couple of helmets while coasting down a hill. At a relatively modest speed (~20 mph), I couldn't tell any difference. But at 35+ mph, the difference in drag seemed enormous.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
WRT 1: length of run and more replicates helps average out errors and variations. This is a pure guess based upon all the 1-2 mile segments on my 10 mile TT. I get pretty much the same CdA for those short flat segments on windless days. But day to day variation can be large (temp, wind, humidity, setup, pressure, etc). By same.....like 0.158, 0.155, 0.160.......that kind of sameness. But I do not repeat (replicates) and average. You can easily do that on 1 mile runs. Do them many times and average for condition 1. Change your whatever for condition 2, repeat. Whether you do ABBA depends how important it is to you. I have to do this homework for hand and arms myself.

WRT 2: I try to hold the same power generally speaking because it is training primarily. As an aside, you can tease out Crr from CdA by doing runs at say 20 mph and then at 25 mph. The correct Crr and CdA will only uniquely solve both runs. On my river road with the fast tires that I use, Crr is 0.0045. I tend to go 23 ish mph on my up and back runs since it is usually at least an 80 mile day. On my halfpipe, I hit 38+ mph at the bottom and then am crawling at the very top.....I haven't given a lot of thought to it because this is all I have but I tend to think the very high top speed and very, very slow low speed help WRT accuracy. I dunno. Head hurts today, could be wrong.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Should mention that accurate and precise measurement of speed is a consideration. If your speed is just being calculated using GPS, this will be a source of error but at higher speed, the error is probably not too bad. The Garmin cadence sensor or a powertap hub will measure wheel revolutions and calculate (accurately) the road speed.
 

bladderhead

Zen MBB Master
ed72 said:
think about changing kit.
Did Stan Lee write this? Mild-mannered ed72 on a Chinese MTB gets passed by an investment banker on a carbon Trek. Mild-mannered ed72 disappears into the back of a van, from which emerges... Superbikeman! Faster than a speeding Froome on dope! Is it a bird? Is it a plane?
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Did Stan Lee write this? Mild-mannered ed72 on a Chinese MTB gets passed by an investment banker on a carbon Trek. Mild-mannered ed72 disappears into the back of a van, from which emerges... Superbikeman! Faster than a speeding Froome on dope! Is it a bird? Is it a plane?

I just went out. Alas, Walter Mitty emerged from the truck.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Should mention that accurate and precise measurement of speed is a consideration. If your speed is just being calculated using GPS, this will be a source of error but at higher speed, the error is probably not too bad. The Garmin cadence sensor or a powertap hub will measure wheel revolutions and calculate (accurately) the road speed.

There was a lot of discussion about this on another forum. Some riders are convinced that you'll get better Strava results if you use a GPS unit to record your data rather than the phone app. It's also commonly believed that a speed sensor gets you better Strava times than just relying on the GPS to calculate distance. I haven't been able to verify these claims, but I've seen some strange occurrences even when using a speed sensor, like a mysterious drop from 25 mph to 12 mph, and then back up to 25 mph only seconds later.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I know when I used just GPS for speed, it was all over the place at slower speed. With the powertap hub, I get consistent readings that seem acceptable. I have a Garmin cadence and wheel speed sensor attachment (carming gsc 10, I think) and it worked well, too. An improvement of 0.005 m2 in CdA would only increase speed by about 0.25 mph at 200 watts for my numbers or about 0.5 mph for 0.01 m2. Going back to my old gage R & R days, this means the speed should to be within about 0.1 mph. If it is bouncing around by 0.3 mph, there is a limit to what you can measure in terms of small improvements unless you minimize this error with more runs. The 0.01 improvement sounds trivial but it is like 10 free watts. My huge goal is to gain a total of 12 watts this year and drop a stone and a half. LOL. So, the hours are not wasted but not really fun either.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I know when I used just GPS for speed, it was all over the place at slower speed. With the powertap hub, I get consistent readings that seem acceptable. I have a Garmin cadence and wheel speed sensor attachment (carming gsc 10, I think) and it worked well, too. An improvement of 0.005 m2 in CdA would only increase speed by about 0.25 mph at 200 watts for my numbers or about 0.5 mph for 0.01 m2. Going back to my old gage R & R days, this means the speed should to be within about 0.1 mph. If it is bouncing around by 0.3 mph, there is a limit to what you can measure in terms of small improvements unless you minimize this error with more runs. The 0.01 improvement sounds trivial but it is like 10 free watts. My huge goal is to gain a total of 12 watts this year and drop a stone and a half. LOL. So, the hours are not wasted but not really fun either.

If I dropped a stone and a half, I'd be dead. I'm exactly 12 stone as of this morning, so probably a bit underweight for my height. There's no way I'd ever be able to compete with the 135 lb stick-boy racers out there, though. I've been keeping an eye on the records currently held by these guys on my new favorite trail. They're not pushing out huge power numbers, but their endurance is phenomenal. I'm already having doubts that I can beat their longer (7 mile+) KOM's, even on the M1. I'm definitely going to have to extend my training intervals to have a chance, and it's going to be pure misery. Phil said he could average 31 mph on the M1 for a solid hour, so I've got a target to aim for. :rolleyes:

As far as the GPS goes, I seem to have the opposite problem to yours. I find it nearly impossible to pick a target wattage and hold it there for more than two seconds; the numbers just bounce all over the place. Much easier for me is to pick a target speed, hold it for several miles, and then use my software to determine my average power output.

I have a couple of spare Garmin hub mounted speed sensors, but I don't see how I can put them on the M1 due to the disk wheels, so I'm pretty much at the mercy of the GPS to calculate my speed.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I use 3 second averaging for the power and it smooths it out fairly well. Since it is flat where you are, picking a speed makes a lot of sense and is probably a better approach. My primary thingie is doing training and the aero stuff is secondary. Even on my river road 10 mile TT, there are a few 3% gradients and I have monitor power on them or I blow up.

31 mph for one hour. Yikes. I think my best 10 mile TT average speed was only 29.2 ish and until I drop at least a stone, no way to hold 29 mph for an hour.

A 7 mile segment KoM would be 12 minutes or less here. There are a couple slippery upright beasts in my neck of the woods. Then, the more normal riders would be in the 14-16 minute range.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I use 3 second averaging for the power and it smooths it out fairly well. Since it is flat where you are, picking a speed makes a lot of sense and is probably a better approach. My primary thingie is doing training and the aero stuff is secondary. Even on my river road 10 mile TT, there are a few 3% gradients and I have monitor power on them or I blow up.

A 3% grade in Florida is where riders dismount and walk up. I used to ride up and down steep hills all day when I lived in upstate NY, but unfortunately I seem to have lost my "climbing muscles" since I moved to Florida.

31 mph for one hour. Yikes. I think my best 10 mile TT average speed was only 29.2 ish and until I drop at least a stone, no way to hold 29 mph for an hour.

A 7 mile segment KoM would be 12 minutes or less here. There are a couple slippery upright beasts in my neck of the woods. Then, the more normal riders would be in the 14-16 minute range.

You guys are clearly in better shape than us Floridians! There's only one local racer I know of capable of averaging 29 mph in a 10 mile TT, and he has no competition. I do very well in sprints, but anything over 1 mile is like an Ultra for me.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I just did my first ever 40k TT. It wasn't an official race, just me on an isolated trail seeing how I might do, so I decided to take the plush M5 rather than the faster but much less forgiving M1.

The experience only confirmed what I've always known, but I'm glad I did it. The first few miles went fine, occasionally reaching a cruising speed of 27 mph. But after mile 5, I experienced a big drop in power output, losing about 1 mph. I thought it might have been caused by a sudden headwind, but a glance at my Garmin removed all doubt; it was definitely a power loss. The only good news for the remainder of the TT was that my fatigue level didn't increase any further, as I feared it might. In the final two miles or so I managed to keep going at ~25 mph without any noticeable increase in lactic acid or running short of oxygen. In fact, I'm now convinced that I could have pushed myself just a tad harder for an extra .5 mph, but didn't realize that until the very end. When I dismounted and tried to walk the bent back to my car, I felt dizzy, a bit nauseous, and my hands were shaking. I became aware of a thumping sound and thought it might be a jogger on the trail behind me, but it was the sound of my own heartbeat. :eek: So, no real surprises here. As has always been the case, it seems I'm just not cut out for any sort of endurance sport. Still, I did well enough to win one KOM on a seven mile segment and narrowly missed wining another one of equal length. That will give me the incentive to try again. :)
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Best to start a little slower and finish a little faster (ignoring wind). well done. What did Lemond say....it doesn't get easier, you just go faster...
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Best to start a little slower and finish a little faster (ignoring wind). well done. What did Lemond say....it doesn't get easier, you just go faster...

What do you suggest as far as TT specific training? Is it just a matter of repeating the same distances in future training rides, or is there a better way?

One thing I didn't mention but which I found very interesting was that 200 watts seems to be the maximum amount I can produce without tiring out. 220W or 230W seems quite manageable for a long time, but eventually my power will drop back down to 200W and stay there. That modest amount is still good enough to get me to 26-27 mph on the M1, but my ultimate goal is to average 30 mph for 10 miles.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
It looks like I miscalculated the distance; I actually did something halfway between a 20K and 40K ride. I don't think I have the mental toughness any longer to survive a 40K, so I might concentrate on a 10 mile TT instead. That's what the local TT races consist of, although there's one that's only 7 miles. Would the training for this reduced distance be any different from what you've outlined above?
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
There was a lot of discussion about this on another forum. Some riders are convinced that you'll get better Strava results if you use a GPS unit to record your data rather than the phone app. It's also commonly believed that a speed sensor gets you better Strava times than just relying on the GPS to calculate distance. I haven't been able to verify these claims, but I've seen some strange occurrences even when using a speed sensor, like a mysterious drop from 25 mph to 12 mph, and then back up to 25 mph only seconds later.

If you’re getting odd and intermittent speed drops on your Garmin with a speed /cadence sensor there’s likely one of two possibilities. First is a cranky bit of software. It happens from time to time. I blame it on square electrons in the mix. Usually a reload of the software fixes the problem. Second problem is that even if you have set up the sensor properly it can drop connection occasionally. When that happens most Garmin units revert back to gps mode. The fleeting speed anomalies in gps mode are not uncommon and are usually dropped as outliers in ave speed calculations within the software.
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
A 3% grade in Florida is where riders dismount and walk up. I used to ride up and down steep hills all day when I lived in upstate NY, but unfortunately I seem to have lost my "climbing muscles" since I moved to Florida.



You guys are clearly in better shape than us Floridians! There's only one local racer I know of capable of averaging 29 mph in a 10 mile TT, and he has no competition. I do very well in sprints, but anything over 1 mile is like an Ultra for me.

First time I ever joined a group ride in FL we tooled southward on Long Boat Key toward Sarasota. Going over the bridge into Sarasota at some point everyone stood up in the saddle and gave a hoot and a holler. I asked the guy next to me what was going on. “It’s a hill, dude!” was his response. The rise of the bridge is the steepest grade for miles around!
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I've made some tweaks to my tiller design for the M1. It turns out that the Cane Creek brake levers are about 1" shorter than the other set I have. That means that I can face the levers downward without the right side brake lever interfering with the buttons on my Di2 shifter pod. This angle also makes it much easier to route the wiring through the openings in the bottom of the tiller (not shown here).

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