The Optimum Hip Angle for Maximum power?

[Balor]

By the way, angiogenesis might explain why a lot of people feel that 'riding bents make them faster on DF'. Not me, though! Again, my circulation system must be to blame...
I've read up some articles about therapeutic angiogenesis (obviously amounts to 'gene doping', and, well, I cannot care less). Seems very promising, too bad still experiemental and obviously hideously expensive I bet.

 

[Balor]

Interesting "to read" material:
https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.00035.2004

(Well, I'm unlikely to die from cancer any time soon if my problems are indeed related to suppressed angiogenesis).

P.S. I wonder if Lance's cancer problems are somehow related as well Whether endogenously or exogenously.

 

[Balor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascular_endothelial_growth_factor

Well, I guess Ed is right: "Bent legs" is actually "Bent perfusion", a combination of lung and blood perfusion.
A bent, from POV of you legs, is your own personal hypobaric chamber, UNLESS we are talking about LWB bents with upright posture and low BB. Old news, but now I can clearly see the mechanisms.

It causes mild to severe (in my case) hypoxia in your legs, which in turn trigger compensatory mechanisms via angiogenesis to lower your vascular resistance to improve perfusion. Unfortunately, this process cannot happen overnight - or any malignant tumor will kill you overnight as well.

If your vascular system is robust and flexible enough, it *adapts* and stops being a 'weak link', hence other factors (like mitochondrial density, neuronal activation strength and sheer muscle size) become dominant once again (with extra drop of recumbent-specific bracing woes on top), but if not - no matter how large your muscles are, you will not be able to pedal worth a damn if they are starved of oxygen and flooded with CO2 and lactate.
Lung function is also very important, because if your circulation is compromised, you must absolutely get the most out of it. And, obviously, if you climb higher grades, your perfusion is further compromised, because your legs get higher and heart - lower.

Unfortunately, upright posture and low BB means piss-poor aerodynamics and recumbutt unless you add fairings (that add to side area/wind load and weight).

So, what can be done?

1. Well, lots of hard training, duh. But if you want to train *smart* as well...
2. If you want to minimise your adaptation time, you should embrace the suffering, rise BB as high possible, don hypoxia mask (what's interesting about it, you should likely wear it before and after, not during the exercise... maybe even walk around in one) .
3. Drugs that help with blood circulation and perfusion. Most of those, however, are aimed at a completely different demographic - problem with venous return and likely would make matters WORSE because 'vasoconstriction' and 'increased vascular resistance' were mentioned, but I might be completely wrong.
I suspect that such a 'performance enhancing drug' as tadalafil or sildenafil would be particularly effective for bentriders, and it is already widely used as 'gray area doping':
https://www.outsideonline.com/2105376/guide-dopings-grey-area

It is shown to be hugely effective for performance under hypoxic conditions, but not really (besides it's, ahem, prescribed effect) under normoxic.
So, I guess a trip to a local drug store is an order to test my 'bent hypoxia' theory

 

[bladderhead]

Thanks for cheering me up. I have COPD, so I am already hypoxic. I guess I don't need the mask then. I suppose I am putting myself in the best condition to stimulate my blood vessels to grow. The fact that I haven't got cancer indicates that they are not doing so.

I still like both my bikes. I tried a LWB years ago and did not like it. Anyway, if a SWB is inconvenient, a LWB is worse.

Maybe I am some sort of Guinea pig.

 

[Balor]

I suppose I am putting myself in the best condition to stimulate my blood vessels to grow. The fact that I haven't got cancer indicates that they are not doing so.

Ehehe, that's not automatic . Anyway, entire chain is as good as its weakest link. If you your lungs don't work too well, growing more blood vessels would not likely help.

Talking of 'Viagra doping'...
I think I've misinterpreted its effect, it is supposed to prevent *vasoconstriction* at high attitudes, and not everyone even shows that effect.
Still, since I'm particularly badly affected, and the most effect in that study was shown exactly by those that were particularly affected (bringing them in line with 'non-responders'), *maybe* I'll get some benefit, but a *lack* of effect would not be a conconclusive proof of anything unfortunately.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/06/060624120556.htm

 

[ed72]

Thanks for sharing that Balor. I went down that road (and similar/same research) because it was clear to me that my coughing and breathing issues that surfaced when I began riding bents concomitant with significant aerobic power losses could not merely be a "bent legs" issue. My case could have been more of a canary in the coal mine. Anyway. I used to work for Sildenafil citrate company and have read all the FDA filings and am aware of the original intent of the compound. I have thought about it. My feet are becoming permanently numb. Cause is not clear. Discussing such matters with either my Neurologist or Pulmonologist during the 3.75 minutes the insurance company pays them during my $50 co-pay visit is unfruitful. Nero assumes feet numbness is related to cervical stenosis (central canal narrowing) but if so, why did it rear its ugly head and progress only when I started to ride recumbents (?). Just another indication of hypoxic condition in the recumbent pedaling position, in my opinion.

Aside from angio biogenesis and ongoing healthy endothelia and maintaining high mitochondria action potentials (currently taking care of a family member with Alzheimers and my dad's heart was destroyed by Statins), my interests have also been focused on neural biogenesis although my Neurologist claims my damaged cervical nerves cannot regrow (he's wrong....I can move my fingers now and have regained some feeling but it has taken more than 18 months, a variety of supplements, TENS, traction, and PT). I tried to ride my Pinnarello upright bike the other day, I got 2.5 miles before occipital neuralgia pain kicked in.

As a return back to on topic, my seat was lowered to about 15 degrees yesterday from 18-19 degrees. I am going to do more testing, but I don't think it is faster. I'm going to test peak power today and compare but it felt a lot less yesterday. At that level of recline my head/helmet seems to be below my knees at the top of the pedal stroke. I have never read any research or wind tunnel studies along those lines, but it seems to me the airfoil like shape of an aero helmet should be in relatively undisturbed airflow (attachment vs. detach or laminar vs turbulent). Also testing the tailbox in crosswinds.....it sucks there.

 

[bladderhead]

entire chain is as good as its weakest link.

I know. I tried to reuse a single-use masterlink.

 

[ed72]

Balor.....I should have also mentioned that I've been to high altitude successfully and also unsuccessfully. The nerves in the hands and especially feet don't like low O2. LOL

 

[ed72]

I know. I tried to reuse a single-use masterlink.

I reuse them all the time but I do bring a spare always.

 

[Balor]

Hmm. Fascinating stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcirculation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemodynamics

I wonder... elevated legs *should* result in less blood pressure. Less pressure - less pressure gradient - less perfusion by osmosis.
So, shouldn't you be actually trying to RISE your *systemic* blood pressure, along with decreasing vascular resistance? But I guess that is related to stroke volume and can only be improved by endurance exercise (which I don't exactly lack).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18019592
I wonder if people reading this thread can measure their arm-leg pressure gradient while sitting up and lying down, with feet elevated to emulate your BB height?

 

[ed72]

Lowered seat from about 19 degrees down to bout 15 degrees. My peak power is 20% higher at 19 degrees. Did not have time to do Chung field testing but top speed on known hills is higher; however, two rolling segments where I should have don't better had me bogging down on a few short climbs due to the lower grunt factor. If it were not such a PITA, I would raise it right back up.

 

[Balor]

Lowered seat from about 19 degrees down to bout 15 degrees. My peak power is 20% higher at 19 degrees. Did not have time to do Chung field testing but top speed on known hills is higher; however, two rolling segments where I should have don't better had me bogging down on a few short climbs due to the lower grunt factor. If it were not such a PITA, I would raise it right back up.

By the way, you can try and use a trainer like I did to test how 'pure trunk orientation', as compared to hip angle, affects power output - just remove (find a way to fix it without damaging your floor though) or rise your front wheel.
It is also a good way to emulate climbing a steep grade

 

[ed72]

By the way, you can try and use a trainer like I did to test how 'pure trunk orientation', as compared to hip angle, affects power output - just remove (find a way to fix it without damaging your floor though) or rise your front wheel.
It is also a good way to emulate climbing a steep grade

Does 16% loss in peak power seem realistic? I could tell it was off yesterday because little rises and hills were harder. Seems like a lot.

 

[Balor]

Does 16% loss in peak power seem realistic? I could tell it was off yesterday because little rises and hills were harder. Seems like a lot.

Dunno. It does seem a bit drastic. I do get about 15% variation (nearly 50 watts) when it comes to watts at same level of perceived exertion by removing my rear wheel, but that is more like 25 degrees of difference. There might be some sort of 'inflection point' though, especially without adaptation.

 

[Balor]

Ok, I'll be doing blind tests with HR and power (power is about 10% off towards 'flattering' side), using music as cues (and motivation).

Reference with upright seat and 700c rear wheel:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1940187843

I'll be adding a test with 20" rear wheel and 20" rear wheel and 20" rear wheel + sildenafil "doping".

Funny thing - now my *arms* got numb and tingling by the end of the last (to complete exhaustion) interval. Likely a fluke, just something of note.

 

[tiltmaniac]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vascular_endothelial_growth_factor

Well, I guess Ed is right: "Bent legs" is actually "Bent perfusion", a combination of lung and blood perfusion.
A bent, from POV of you legs, is your own personal hypobaric chamber, UNLESS we are talking about LWB bents with upright posture and low BB. Old news, but now I can clearly see the mechanisms.

It causes mild to severe (in my case) hypoxia in your legs, which in turn trigger compensatory mechanisms via angiogenesis to lower your vascular resistance to improve perfusion. Unfortunately, this process cannot happen overnight - or any malignant tumor will kill you overnight as well.

If your vascular system is robust and flexible enough, it *adapts* and stops being a 'weak link', hence other factors (like mitochondrial density, neuronal activation strength and sheer muscle size) become dominant once again (with extra drop of recumbent-specific bracing woes on top), but if not - no matter how large your muscles are, you will not be able to pedal worth a damn if they are starved of oxygen and flooded with CO2 and lactate.
Lung function is also very important, because if your circulation is compromised, you must absolutely get the most out of it. And, obviously, if you climb higher grades, your perfusion is further compromised, because your legs get higher and heart - lower.

Unfortunately, upright posture and low BB means piss-poor aerodynamics and recumbutt unless you add fairings (that add to side area/wind load and weight).

So, what can be done?

1. Well, lots of hard training, duh. But if you want to train *smart* as well...
2. If you want to minimise your adaptation time, you should embrace the suffering, rise BB as high possible, don hypoxia mask (what's interesting about it, you should likely wear it before and after, not during the exercise... maybe even walk around in one) .
3. Drugs that help with blood circulation and perfusion. Most of those, however, are aimed at a completely different demographic - problem with venous return and likely would make matters WORSE because 'vasoconstriction' and 'increased vascular resistance' were mentioned, but I might be completely wrong.
I suspect that such a 'performance enhancing drug' as tadalafil or sildenafil would be particularly effective for bentriders, and it is already widely used as 'gray area doping':
https://www.outsideonline.com/2105376/guide-dopings-grey-area

It is shown to be hugely effective for performance under hypoxic conditions, but not really (besides it's, ahem, prescribed effect) under normoxic.
So, I guess a trip to a local drug store is an order to test my 'bent hypoxia' theory

Another thing that could be done is to change bike geometry for climbing vs not.
One if the reasons why swing-arm based rear wheels are fun is that this is something you could actually reasonably do without too much weight penalty.

 

[Balor]

One if the reasons why swing-arm based rear wheels are fun is that this is something you could actually reasonably do without too much weight penalty.

Indeed, just change shock length/mounting point. It also affects your steering angle though, but unless your trail changes to negative (now THAT is inflection point allright) I doubt you'll notice *much* of a difference.
I'm seriously considering using an MTB seat post with remote length adjustment for 'on the fly' seat angle adjustment.

 

[bladderhead]

Is your bike not heavy enough already? What is the opposite of a weight-weeny?

 

[jond]

I know. I tried to reuse a single-use masterlink.

Go the connex link

 

[Balor]

Is your bike not heavy enough already? What is the opposite of a weight-weeny?

Em, I'm not loading my bike with lead bars for 'shits and giggles' . about 300 gramms of 'weight penatly', if it gives me extra 50 watts or so would be MORE than compensated for. That's a rather big *if* though and I'm intending to find out.