The Road to 500 miles in 24hrs

[jond]

that subject has been covered a few times. i got a custom bag made here in australia by www.bikebagdude.com and it works okay with a side entry. i use ratz's mark 1 storage system which keeps the bags behind my shoulders. see ratz's post what i did last summer. i noticed from your pics on strava that your arms are bent quite a lot. there seems room pardon the pun for a gain there with straighter arms. check out ratz's handlebar testing. i settled on bullhorns once i learnt to ride the bike (about a 1000klm) . the pump by the way is an excellent bit of kit. i use it on the vendetta too.

 

[RojoRacing]

that subject has been covered a few times. i got a custom bag made here in australia by www.bikebagdude.com and it works okay with a side entry. i use ratz's mark 1 storage system which keeps the bags behind my shoulders. see ratz's post what i did last summer. i noticed from your pics on strava that your arms are bent quite a lot. there seems room pardon the pun for a gain there with straighter arms. check out ratz's handlebar testing. i settled on bullhorns once i learnt to ride the bike (about a 1000klm) . the pump by the way is an excellent bit of kit. i use it on the vendetta too.

Well I am a total newb at this recumbent thing and have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking for in an upper body position setup, I think you the first to comment on my boom length. Seems I gained some stability with handling the bike when I moved the bars back toward me a couple inches and relaxed my arms. It's like my steering is more precise with my outer arms not extended so far and placing counter weight to my turns, I can now relax my hands more and focus on my legs. I not opposed to moving them forward again a feeling the difference now that I've got another week of riding in.

Another reason I moved the bars back was to give my legs more room when pedaling through corners because my quads where already kind of getting in the way. I also wanted a little more clearance so I could try some standard road bars which would be more narrow. I try looking for those threads you mentioned later.

Thanks.

 

[SamP]

The main thing is to find an arm position that's comfortable for you. The extreme schools of thought are superman (extended) and hamster (close to the body). For most of a year I was almost right in the middle, but after moving the handlebar out a few inches I find my arms don't get tired as fast.

 

[jond]

Well I am a total newb at this recumbent thing and have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking for in an upper body position setup, I think you the first to comment on my boom length. Seems I gained some stability with handling the bike when I moved the bars back toward me a couple inches and relaxed my arms. It's like my steering is more precise with my outer arms not extended so far and placing counter weight to my turns, I can now relax my hands more and focus on my legs. I not opposed to moving them forward again a feeling the difference now that I've got another week of riding in.

Another reason I moved the bars back was to give my legs more room when pedaling through corners because my quads where already kind of getting in the way. I also wanted a little more clearance so I could try some standard road bars which would be more narrow. I try looking for those threads you mentioned later.

Thanks.

yes whilst you master the bike your position is what feels best and safest for you. i learnt on the original handle bar for a 1000klm and would not have been able to handle the bullhorns till then. i was merely making the point in line with your goal that straighter arms make you more aero and that there was seeming potential for you to become more aero and thus faster. you will find yourself adjusting and fine tuning the bike for quite a while yet and it is worth experimenting to reach that right position. from your pics your body type would allow use of bullhorn set up without issue. in my case my elbows are at about 15 deg. i find it very comfy but it took a while to dial in. i note that the vendetta more than any other recumbent i have allows a greater range of movement by way of inching up and down on the seat to alter muscle groups more than any other bike i have ridden.

in so far as clearance goes for your thighs an option is a stem riser and they are available in different heights . i am marginal on the large frame and ended up using a short bbb extender to gain cockpit room. yet the boom is virtually horizontal. keep up the good work on your journey.

 

[RojoRacing]

As low as I am on the bike is I raise the boom up any more I I'll start blocking my field of vision, besides wouldn't things being nice and low be beneficial to aerodynamics. I agree with the idea of run what feels good to each person but some people are more adaptable then others and will feel comfortable on most setups best or not.

Yesterday was the first time I rode up a large climb with some very steep kickers mixed in for good measure. This was the first time I used my smaller chainring since receiving the bike. Based on my experience up the 25 min climb I think a 53-39 crankset with a 11-32 cassette would be better for me. I don't really want to spend much money on a bike that isn't mine but after using Red And DuraAce components on my other bike I'm less then satisfied with the crispness and power of the base build. If I can find a connection to source some of the SRAM Wifli components that use a new 22 speed setup with 32t cog range I may be willing to give that a shot since I'll be able to use the components later to update my 8 year old Ridley Noah. The brakes are by far my least favorite component so far with not much bite and a ton of flex or compression depending on your view. But don't take my criticism to mean the stock Vedetta is crap because it really is a great bike out of the box. It's just with my background in motorsports where the smallest change to a component can mean the difference between 1st and 2nd place you tend to develop an overly critical sense of what is good enough. The fact that I'm beating up on a local group of racers who's bikes average over $9000 and weight nearly half as much goes to show the stock Vendetta is a great bike.

 

[RojoRacing]

Ok so my regular job keeps getting in the way of me fine tuning the comfort of the V but it hasn't stopped me from riding it every day. I still can't ride with no hands, still to gutless to try cutting them off and trying, but I can ride one handed ok enough to grab my headrest bottles and drink. I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between me and any other CruzBike veteran at this point as long as were just riding and not performing tricks .

Monday I rode the same steep climb as last week but this time with the fast lunch ride group. There are a couple small rollers on the way to the hill climb that kind of put the hurt on and dropped several riders. I myself just lost touch with the lead group by about 50' but was able to quickly close the gap after cresting over and descending for a minute. It really is a daily test of egos with these guys and I think that's what I like about this particular group. Today's route has a hill climb finish at the top of the 4 mile category 2 climb and a sprinters finish at the end after a 4 mile descent. I was reluctant to join the group for this route because with the V weighing in at around 27 lbs I figured I wouldn't stand a chance in hell of keeping them in sight.

So we roll into the climb and the group starts to shuffle around with several riders dropping off without even trying to go with the leaders. The lead group is 15 riders strong and with ever short steeper section I feel like I'm going to pop and we lose another rider. With the group down to 10 riders and only about 1/3 of the way up the climb I knew I had reached my limit. I knew if I didn't dial it back then I would have the legs to even make it up the final kickers where I was barely able to balance myself last week. Right as I dropped off I could see 2 more riders barely hanging on for dear life. Soon those two riders dropped off and I caught the first one and he grabbed into my wheel as long as he could but eventually he fell off. At this point one of the riders still in the lead group must have gone critical because he was barely moving and you could hear him uttering some word of disgust, so I said a few word of encouragement between my gasps for air as I went by. I finally caught the one remaining straggler between the lead group and myself. When he saw me pull along side him he stood up and tried to pull away bit I wasn't going to give up the chase so easily. At this point I noticed that the lead group was only about a min ahead but that was a long steep min. Now into the last 1/2 mile and the steepest series of kicker my compatriot was falling apart but with me goading him with "come on man your not going to let the goofy guy on the recumbent beat you up this hill are you?" he rebounded and stuck right on my wheel till we crested the top. One of my favorite things about human powered sports is when I can encourage someone to go that 10% past 100 with just a few words and a challenge.

Now onto the descent I couldn't tell you if I was trying to catch the leaders or if I just want to go fast and risk a little danger but as soon as I crested over the top I lifted my ass off the seat and sprinted down the hill till I ran out of gear. I tucked my arms and legs I and quickly coasted up to 45mph as I swerved left and right though the slight bends in the road. After a min or so I noticed riders ahead of me, 3 riders to be exact. That was all the motivation I needed so with one eye on the road and the other on my garmin I focused on sprinting any time my speed dropped below 37mph on the flatter sections and tucked back in when it got steep again. I could see the 3 riders were rotating and trying to close the gap to whoever was ahead of them but even so I was still closing fast all by myself. I finally caught them at the bottom before the last flat mile to the sprint finish. I promptly accelerated passed them after waiting for a safe spot to pass and then noticed 3 more riders 200' up the road. Well hell I've come this far I may as well catch the final group ahead of me. I picked up my pace a bit more and thanked the final 3 riders for a good ride as I rode pass with a smile. At this point they were fading out of sight from my mirror and I had forgotten about the sprint finish because no one on any of the previous riders would try and catch me. With only a couple hundred yards to go something in my mirror caught my eye and it was my friend Frank in an all out sprint and closing in on me. I quickly shifted up a few gears and gave it all I had for 10 seconds. He closed to within a couple feet of my rear wheel but conceded in the end. We coasted to the stop sign and right before I split off to head my separate way he joking said "you disqualified". He later said I surprised the hell out of the group when I caught them before the end.

There's definitely a small amount of friction among the faster riders of the group toward the odd ball recumbent rider. I don't know if it's just the fact that a totally new unknown rider who can push the pace just started showing up and rocking the boat. It could also be the preconceptions that all recumbents are slow old guys and they don't want to accept that they are wrong. It could also be the fact that I like a good workout and won't cruise into a sprint finish so everyone is fresh to only sprint at the end. Frank is the only rider in the group that knows me from mtbing so he's the most accepting the the group towards me. Today when I went to the front in the last 6miles it was Frank to bought the group back up to me and as I kept the pace at 34mph I could see them working to stay with me as they rotated among each other. As we approached the second to last corner I signaled them to pass because they where all cross wheeling me and each other trying to stay out of the wind and I didn't want them to plow into the back of me when I slowed for the corner. After the corner I could sense a sigh of relief among the group and noticed they weren't going to pick the pace back up so I went around them immediately and watched them drop back as they tried to decide if they wanted to continue the chase. I closed in on my as I rode through the last corner and on the last long strait. I again picked up my pace and I could hear someone in the group yell out "just let him go" so I picked up my effort a little more. with a wheel right in my right ear I could see my HR was already at 179 and for a second I thought that was all I had. Then I reminded myself that no one knows how to dig deeper then a Perez when the going gets tough and it's better to blow up then wonder if you really gave it you all so I pushed even harder. I got it up to around 27mph into a strong 11 o clock wind and I could feel the blood in my legs go cold and then I saw Frank stand up and go for the sprint. I lifted my ass and gave it everything I had but he was able to pull ahead of me by a half a bike length. 184bpm is the first time I've seen over 180 all year and it felt go to push that hard for the first time in a long time.

I'll probably get to ride the V once more this week before head south for my second 24hr solo mtb race of October. One nice thing about CA is there's not such thing as and off season.
Monday https://www.strava.com/activities/416340987
Tuesday https://www.strava.com/activities/416983155/overview

 

[DavidCH]

After such a ride I am surprised how the recovery effect is with the V. I bet the others didn't want to race soon after that! I enjoyed the write up.

 

[DavidCH]

You have a chainwheel 39/53t configuration. I have a 44/54t configuration. Going downhill is freaky but uphill a struggle. Is your 39t an effort as I am definitely dropping down in size?

 

[RojoRacing]

You have a chainwheel 39/53t configuration. I have a 44/54t configuration. Going downhill is freaky but uphill a struggle. Is your 39t an effort as I am definitely dropping down in size?

No this bike came with a 50-34 up front and 11-32 in the rear. Basically it's geared so short that balancing on a 17% grade is harder then the act of pedaling. But with that said I'm probably much stronger then the average rider so a 50-34 on this bike isn't a bad choice for an OEM setup. I'm not sure if I could have climbed the hill on my moray ride if my 34 was a 44 like you, traction would have been hard to get. I think you'd really notice the change from a 44 to a 39 on your smaller ring.

 

[LarryOz]

Jason - do you have a power meter? If not- I would make that you next investment. (Probably PT P1 so you can switch between bikes)
Also while you are still doing MTB and Vendetta rides at the same time, it would be really valuable information to collect.
Your max heart rate is impressive. How old are you by the way? Regardless of age - over 180 is impressive. I believe adding power data to your efforts will help you dramatically, especially when you get to the steady state riding that you will be doing on the Vendetta later. Good Luck.

 

[RojoRacing]

After such a ride I am surprised how the recovery effect is with the V. I bet the others didn't want to race soon after that! I enjoyed the write up.

I wouldn't say the Vendetta lets you recover any faster then any other bike give you put the same % of effort into each setup. Now if your working 5% less then the DF riders around then that 5% probably becomes 20% or more in recovery time.

Personally I've always had extremely fast recovery during rides but that probably more to do with my ultra distance races and the fact that I rarely ever go 100%. I find that even if I try and go all out on a random ride I only get about 90% of my physical potential out of it so that left over 10% lets me recover quickly. Now if I keep riding this local lunch ride and I push my limit everyday, I'll be able to little by little unlock that last 10% I normally can't get to. Once I can get my HR back into the 180s for mins at a time and I can achieve my known max of 190 I'll feel like I'm back to 100%. Then I won't be looking for a fight any time soon after an all out sprint.

 

[RojoRacing]

Jason - do you have a power meter? If not- I would make that you next investment. (Probably PT P1 so you can switch between bikes)
Also while you are still doing MTB and Vendetta rides at the same time, it would be really valuable information to collect.
Your max heart rate is impressive. How old are you by the way? Regardless of age - over 180 is impressive. I believe adding power data to your efforts will help you dramatically, especially when you get to the steady state riding that you will be doing on the Vendetta later. Good Luck.

You have a long way to go before convincing me to spend money on a power meter that I can't use on my Mtb that I'll be back to riding 99% of the time after the 24hr TT. Yes I understand I could use it on the Mtb but the data is mostly useless due to the mountainous terrain. I'm not even sure I'd have enough time at this point to cole t enough useful data to come up with a plan for using it during the 24hr. I'm pretty good at listening to my body and using my HR to back up my opinion of my current state.

I'm 31 years old and up until 2 years ago I always thought my max HR was 180 because that's the highest I ever got it in running races. Last year when I was racing XC Mtb races twice a week I expanded my HR all the way to 190 in the all out sprints at the end. I've never been tested in a lab so there's no real way to tell what my exact numbers are but they are close enough.

One thing we notice among my group of friends is my HR at a set pace is always lower then those around me regardless of age. Those who are close to my age are 10-15 Bon higher then me and you have to go up the the guys twice my age to find someone who matches my cruising HR. We figure it's conditioning but some of these old guys are just as fast as me, at least for 2-3 hr rides.

I like having data to look at and ponder over because it interests me but at the end of the day it's my gut feeling that leads me along.

 

[LarryOz]

You're right - you probably would not collect enough data to perhaps be of any use on your 24. But it would sure be useful at some point, especially for us Cruzbiker's that has aspirations of riding the 24. Maybe someone has a nice racing wheel with a PT on it that they can let you run and collect during your 24 on the V.
HR - yes I believe it is all about conditioning. I am 55, and have been able to max out at 189 during a ~20K TT this year in August- Averaged 180 for whole race of 27mins. Of course, my heart also does this weird thing of jumping in the 220-230+ range. Doctors said it was "just a little short circuit" somewhere that seems to happen when I get tired (Usually takes 3-4 hours at an average about 165bpm to make it happen). It did finally happen during my Century attempt, but only for one minute (up to 209) after about 3hours 50 mins. Funny thing is that I don't even feel or notice it unless I am looking at my HR monitor. Doctor said he did not think it was a problem. "If you can hold 165 to 170 average for 4 hours, then your heart can handle beating at 230 just fine" where his exact words. Still, makes you wonder though! Good luck this next week at the MTB ride.

 

[RojoRacing]

I still think those spikes are from your monitor getting interference of some kind like static because I get those same random spikes sometimes. The only way I'd be convince my heart went above 200 is if I wore two separate monitors at once and they both recorded the same spike.

 

[LarryOz]

I still think those spikes are from your monitor getting interference of some kind like static because I get those same random spikes sometimes.

Well I thought that also, until I started wearing 2 different monitors at the same time. Then the Cardiologist had me wear a "holter" monitor for 2 weeks. During that time I continued my fairly intense training and racing. They where able to confirm it was really happening, and of course now I had 3 different monitors giving me the same data.
I guess whether they happen or not is not as big a deal as if there was actually something wrong - so I am mostly glad about that.

 

[LarryOz]

on my Mtb that I'll be back to riding 99% of the time after the 24hr TT

By this statement: Jason, I'm getting the impression that you don't think you will be riding the Vendetta much after the 24 hour TT in November.
I hope you change your mind after that, as it sure would be cool to have you come east for some drafting allowed races that some of us other "Cruzbike Crazies" will hopefully attend next year: Sebring Century or 12-hour (in Feb, in Fl), Calvin's challenge 12-hour (in May in Ohio), and UMCA's 24 National Championship (in June - in Mi), Mid-Atlantic Century and UMCA National Championship (in Aug in NC), and the Hoodoo 500 3-day stage race (in Sept in Utah) - to name a few I guess. It would be great to get a good showing of at least 5 Vendetta's that could all draft together. I have no doubt 300 miles for 12 hours would be within reach!

 

[RojoRacing]

Well opinions change with time so you never know what I'll be doing in a year. With that said, currently the idea of traveling any great distance to ride more asphalt is not even something I would consider. You have to remember your talking to a guy who's more likely to hit the local mountain ridge line and haul ass down the twistiest, rockiest single track he can find all while tempting fate with trying to jump creek gaps he's been to afraid to hit before then go on another boring road ride I also have my motorcross bike to consider as well so anything on the asphalt really does take a back seat on my priorities list.

It's probably best to think of me as an enthusiastic breeze. While I'm here you can't count on me giving it 100% of my effort and I'll contribute as much as I can to the CruzBike community but it's uncertain how long I'll be around. But let's not focus on my long term and instead focus on the here and now because it is uncertain what tomorrow will bring but I have a clear goal for today.

Today I took the V out for a nice easy solo spin to keep my legs loose before heading into another 24hr Mtb race weekend. I dare say for super chill recovery riders the V may be more relaxing to ride then my DF bike.

 

[jond]

Jason i think you will find there is no going back to a wedgie up your bum on a permanent basis. the lure of speed and comfort will be too much to resist.
enjoy the flying v for as long as it lasts. well understand the lure of mtn biking . amazing how many mtn bikers are ex moto guys. being out there off road is special and in my case it was permanent injury (hands) that sees my stable of mtn bikes mostly sold. firetrails only now. better than nothing.

keep up the good work smashing those roadies. cannot wait to see what you will do once you have recumbent legs tuned and maxxed out. i think it takes about 3 months. have you noticed any change in your pedal style from different platforms??????. it takes me two weeks to get back to the same numbers from recumbent to road bike.
i reckon you use more muscle groups in your legs on the recumbent. and you can get more from the upstroke. it was however more difficult to establish and equal peak power between platforms

11k in and i still am not game to totally let go of the handlebar for any length of time. it may never come.

 

[RojoRacing]

Jason i think you will find there is no going back to a wedgie up your bum on a permanent basis. the lure of speed and comfort will be too much to resist.
enjoy the flying v for as long as it lasts. well understand the lure of mtn biking . amazing how many mtn bikers are ex moto guys. being out there off road is special and in my case it was permanent injury (hands) that sees my stable of mtn bikes mostly sold. firetrails only now. better than nothing.

keep up the good work smashing those roadies. cannot wait to see what you will do once you have recumbent legs tuned and maxxed out. i think it takes about 3 months. have you noticed any change in your pedal style from different platforms??????. it takes me two weeks to get back to the same numbers from recumbent to road bike.
i reckon you use more muscle groups in your legs on the recumbent. and you can get more from the upstroke. it was however more difficult to establish and equal peak power between platforms

11k in and i still am not game to totally let go of the handlebar for any length of time. it may never come.

This weekends 24hr mtb race will be the first time riding the mtb since I started ride the V 3 weeks ago. I was told to focus on mastering the V and that's all I've been doing so I hope I don't get any surprises 12hr into my race. Opposed to your opinion I feel the V with it's one position focuses on one group of muscles vs any other bike that has 2 riding positions and thus alloy you to draw from two slightly different sets of muscles. It's because of the two vs one riding position that I believe faster recovery of the legs can be achieved with a DF bike vs a recumbent, more true for mtb vs road due to aero and speed factors though.

I'm only 600 miles into my trial and as expected nowhere near ready to to take both hands off but I've tried several times to no avail.

 

[LarryOz]

I'm only 600 miles into my trial and as expected nowhere near ready to to take both hands off but I've tried several times to no avail.

Well, I've got a good 12K miles or so and the Vendetta and I can only barley ride with no hands. (I don't have any trouble cruising at 25+ mph and taking one hand off my handlebars, pull my water bottle out, drink, and put it pack, with very little impact on my speed or cadence - but there is just no way I'm going to try it with no hands at that speed - no way!)
I think part of it might have to do with a more "easy" pedaling along with just light force on the pedals and a nice straight road. That is when I have been most successful when trying it.
But I rarely ride like that, or I am on a track where I am always turning. That seems to make it a little harder too!