Tubes or tubeless

[CruzLike]

Hi All
Yesterday I had planned to ride my own 24hr marathon. Prior to the start, just after pumping my tire up to pressure my latex tube burst. After 3 hours of riding my other tube burst from hitting a rock or trig. I promptly stopped without issue, only to find out my spare had a stem that was 1/4" too short to operate with my deep section rims. This blowout took me out of my event.
As you can see, I'm intrenched in the "tube" thinking. I like tubes because you don't fuss with the wheels much. You don't have to monitor when the last time goo was refreshed in your tires last. I do like high performance though.

Am I missing the boat? Can anyone tell me a good experience with their tubeless setup? Is it the "Berries" or just something different?

 

[ed72]

I had 13 flats on a 50 mile stretch of TABR in the rain.

Your flat did not take you out of the race.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I used this when selecting my tire setup...

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews

In the end I went with Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless because I read that Campagnolo worked with Schwalbe for those wheels. I am sure the Conti 5000 TL wheels would fit, saving me 2.7 watts per wheel in RR, but for me that is minimal. Now, I have the 25mm tubeless on the rear of my V20. I have a 28mm tubeless on the front, but since I couldn't get it to seat properly, I decided to buy a Bontrager tube with a removable core, filled the tube with 1/2 the required sealant for a true TL system, and now run that at about 100psi. Another part of the reason I do that for the front is because I saw my friends TL tire pressure drop to about 60psi when he ran over a wire. The sealant did its job, but then his tire pressure was so low that it was certainly costing him some speed until he got it pumped up again. With sealant in the tube, it seals much quicker so less tire pressure is lost after a puncture, which means you don't lose as much speed as in the previous scenario. I will likely swap the rear with a 28mm TL tire when it needs changing, and put a Bontrager tube with sealant in it as is now on my front.

I know keeping track of when you put sealant in the TL system is difficult, but how I know when to change it is that I will title my Strava Ride with something such as "New Tires". Then, when I get to around 5K km I can start looking for new tires.

With all of that said, my rear TL tire has performed well so far, but I have not had a puncture on it as far as I know.

 

[DavidCH]

28mm TL tire

Pay more for drag and you can't pump them up to 100psi ... pirelli pzero seems impossible to buy with a high price. I like the pirelli cintura velo 26mm... seems like puncture proof and with an inner tube you can pump it up until your rims smash. All weather tire that will not deflate, grip and more reliable than anything else... that is unless you know of another. Stick a latex innertube in and I am sure it would give most riders an unexpected PB.

 

[jond]

Opinion. Warning contentious issue...

What is the point of going tubeless if you carry or insert a tube. It’s messy and it’s benefits for high pressure road tyres are dubious . Apart from ride quality I see no game changer advantage. Sure some increased flat protection but if you really need that you must be commuting city streets.

i run tubeless on one bike only . A fat bike where the tubes combined weigh 1.5 kg. That is a no brainer. I have tried it on my mtb and df road bike. Abandoned the practice as sealant sprayed my bike. What a mess.

I reckon my tubed conti 5000 tyres would weigh less than @Frito Bandito s set up and be faster and as comfy. Not so true if genuine tubeless.

running latex tubes on a 24 hr marathon is great if you have a couple of spares. Especially butyl ones. For 24 hours. Performance anxiety is nil.

running tubes is easy set and forget clean.

At the side of the road repairing a flat I know I want tubes every time.

Trusting your tyres is a vexed issue. Let them down and search for wire etc once per week for reassurance.

do not mean to be offensive but tubeless for high pressure tyres is a nice ride but does not replace tubes. Further it’s messy expensive and total rubbish when it coats your pride and joy with sealant and says challengingly “ fix me” with the tube you carry anyway.

what performance you may be giving up is reserved for the pros or track or special event. Everything else go butyl tubes like conti race.

i feel most comfortable having the ability to fix a flat or slashed tyre on a long ride when tubed with another tube. You know it makes sense lol.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Pay more for drag and you can't pump them up to 100psi ... pirelli pzero seems impossible to buy with a high price. I like the pirelli cintura velo 26mm... seems like puncture proof and with an inner tube you can pump it up until your rims smash. All weather tire that will not deflate, grip and more reliable than anything else... that is unless you know of another. Stick a latex innertube in and I am sure it would give most riders an unexpected PB.

Yeah, the Bullets aren't Campagnolo's most aero wheel, and they aren't optimized for 28s, but until I get new rims I will just enjoy the extra comfort and reduced pinch flats. There is a lot of construction going on where I ride and for some reason they aren't smoothing out the transitions between the new pavement and old.

 

[paco1961]

Conti 5000 tubeless. I got so tired of train tracks pinch flats. Can’t bunny hop on a bent bike. Mounted no problem w a regular floor pump. I run about 85 lbs front and back. No flats since (of course now I’m cursed!) and a smoother ride. I do carry a tube just in case but since I switched to tubeless I’ve given 4 tubes to fellow riders who got caught without and I haven’t used one.

 

[ed72]

When I first started riding bents, I would get pinch flats. I finally learned that the gage on my pump read 11 pounds high. I was putting 90 pis into 700x25 tires but the actual pressure was ONLY 79 psi. So, I now pump to 101 to get my desired 90 psi. Santa did not bring me the Silca pump with the digital gage, yet. Bike and rider go about 250 lbs these days. No pinch flats in years. I carry two tubes, patch kit, CO2 cartridges, pump, and sometimes a spare tire.

My experience with tubeless over the course of a year in 2015/16? They are a huge PITA fixing on the road and they are not faster. Nowadays, you can supposedly plug large holes. To fix large holes and be on my way, I would have to remove the tubeless tire and man was that difficult on the road. Then, clean the nasty latex liquid (with what). Then, I would have to boot the tire. Then, I would have to remove the tubeless valve stem. Then, put a tube and inflate as usual. Sometimes, the damage to the Schwalbe Pro One was so bad, I had to replace it with the spare. Lest I forget, the hissing latex makes a mess on the bike and can get on your kit. A latex tubed GP5000 is faster than a tubeless GP5000.

I am pretty sure my last flat was August 19, 2019. I normally get a 1-2 flats per year. I run latex tubes.

 

[vosadrian]

I have ran tubeless for a couple of years. I think you guys are exagerating the hassle of repairing a puncture if you are tubeless. I have done around 15000kms tubeless and only had to stop for a puncture once (previous with tubes was about once every 500km). I carry a tube and pump in case of a puncture but rarely use it. The time I had a puncture it was almost identical to replacing a tube. I removed the wheel, remove one side of the tyre off the rim. Poured the sealant onto the ground. removed the valve. Fitted the tube like any other tube. Took a couple minutes longer at most and got me home with no issue. At home I repaired the tyre with a tube patch and then refitted the tyre with sealant and continued using the tyre as before.

I run GP5000 tubeless in 25mm. I typically use pressures around 70-80psi. The ride is like gliding over chip gravel roads. And they are faster than equivalent quality tubed tyres. I estimate I have saved myself about 20 road side swaps for punctures. I only recently got a V20, and it came with GP4000S2 tyres with tubes. Not surprisingly, I had 3 punctures in about 1000kms. I have some tubeless wheels on order now for the V20, and in the meantime I am using my DF wheels that are tubeless. It is so much nicer riding with confidence that I will not get a puncture once in every 5 rides.

 

[Andrew Wilson]

I have no intention of going tubeless. I run 28's at 80psi and cant remember the last time I had a flat. After buying the V20 and hearing the stories of loss of control if you have a front flat I added sealant to my tubes as a precaution.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I might go straight tubeless for big events but I really like the tube with sealant option too for all of my training now. On the rear I put a 25mm Marathon with Green Guard partly because it is heavy, but also because of the durability, comfort and protection. The front might get a 25mm Marathon as well because I am not really going to be trying for KOMs or racing against the fast guys for a while, just building endurance mostly. I was running my tubeless at 80psi which was comfortable, but now I run them between 90-100psi with the tubes. Bontrager tubes have removable cores so I add about half of a small bottle of Stans.

 

[DavidCH]

My views have changed since braking a rib. I was unfortunate enough to be tubeless with a flat that had not a lot of pressure so when taking a right turn , the bead of the front tyre burped and then went skating with my falling hard on my right side. So now the idea is similar to use but I think tubeless ready tyres with inner tube with sealant is the best for training. Just wondered if you had latex with sealant whether or not the tyre would lose pressure if it was airtight sealed?

 

[Frito Bandito]

A video I linked to either here or on BROL was of tubes with sealant inside. And if I recall correctly, the air pressure lost in the tube with sealant was very minimal after a small puncture compared with the small punctures I received or witnessed on a friend's bike (80psi-under 60psi). It is not scientific by any means, but I wouldn't be surprised if the tube seals more quickly after a small puncture since it is pressed tightly against the tire which seems to allow the sealant to work better. That is a good point though David. A tubeless tire would hold air even if it didn't have sealant inside, but if the puncture goes through the tire and tube with sealant, the tire would still have a hole in it, unless enough sealant came out of the tube and was able to plug the hole int he tire too. The holes would line up, but that is hard to say if it would be sealed.

 

[vosadrian]

My views have changed since braking a rib. I was unfortunate enough to be tubeless with a flat that had not a lot of pressure so when taking a right turn , the bead of the front tyre burped and then went skating with my falling hard on my right side.

How did that happen? Did you not know you were low on pressure? I have found that with tubeless there have been a few scenarios with a puncture:

* I get a puncture that is sealed instantly and I don't even know about it until I inspect the tyre later and see the evidence.
* The puncture takes a few seconds for the sealant to seal. You hear the air escaping and might get some sealant sprayed on you. I would typically keep riding but take it easy until I stop at some lights and check how hard the tyre is and then ride accordingly.
* The puncture is large and cannot be healed by the sealant. Typically it still does not deflate as quick as a tube in a similar situation, as the sealant is attempting to fix it. This is the stop and fit a tube option.

I have never had a situation where a tubeless puncture was more dangerous than a tube in the same situation. Every time the tubeless with sealant has been a more gradual deflation that was easier to recover.

I can't see any reason to use a tubeless tyre with a tube with sealant over a tubeless tyre without a tube with sealant. They are still going to puncture in the same scenario... but now you have a tube in there to slow you down. I also use a thicker sealant that cannot be inserted through a valve hole. You would be stuck with thinner sealants to get through the valve hole and they are less effective at sealing punctures. Also, sealants are typically latex, and have similar air loss properties to latex tubes.

 

[jond]

At the end of the day variable personal experience and choice dictated by where you ride means going with what you feel safe and comfortable with. Horses for courses.

We all have crashed no matter which bike with flats The vendetta is safer to crash than any df. We all agree crashing is a terrible occurrence. Heck I’ve punctured marathon plus tyres on my tour trike.

riding city streets you will puncture more.

It’s risk v reward. And a mighty dose of luck.

if you are proactive let your tyres down pinch search for shards glass and wire. As regularly as you can. I pull out heaps of wire.

Going tubeless in the city or busy roads. Yeah good idea. And dictated by where you ride the setup overall will be heavier and be messy to repair should the need for a tube be necessary. In that scenario I’d personally check my tyres more often and go with something tougher like gator skins. Reserving the faster tyres for outside events.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I think someone should do an experiment on, straight tubeless with sealant, tubed (butyl), tubed (latex), tubeless with butyl and latex (no sealant), and tubeless with butyl and latex (with sealant) to see how fast they either deflate or seal, and how much air pressure was lost if it sealed. Since there are so many factors to consider, just starting with a single sized hole where the foreign object doesn't stay in the tire.

 

[vosadrian]

Also, I think the tubeless experience has changed over time... Particularly with Continental getting in on the act with teh GP5000 series. These tyres in tubed form are the most popular tyre for an everyday fast tyre, and they carry that into the tubeless area. They were not available when some people here tried tubeless, and they have changed things. Also, wheels better support tubeless tyres. You can get very good wheels that fit up tubeless nicely. Some even do not need rim tape. I am sure anyone who tried tubeless a few years ago would have a better experience now.

Tubeless is pretty good at preventing most punctures. It is probably not great at preventing debris that causes a large hole or tear. It is great at wire/staples/small glass that is common where I ride. It is great at preventing pinch flats from hitting a large object that does not cause a hole that is common with tubes. If you do get a hole too large for sealant to repair... then the repair process is similar to a tube adding another 5 minutes or so. I have found if I simply pour the sealant out of the tyre, it is not that messy... less messy than dealing with a chain on a V20! I do carry similar emergency equipment to with tubes (levers, tube, CO2/pump). On my light road bike I use a tubolito 28gm tube, some 10g levers and a 50g carbon pump. On the V20 I have 2 100gm tubes, levers, 2 CO2 canisters as I am not so weight conscious. In my case, I have reduced the frequency of using the repair kit by about 95%.

People mention safety. I have had some epic tube blowouts with a loud bang and instant deflation. I have nothing like that with tubeless. Even the repair I had to do took many seconds to deflate and I had stopped with still enough pressure to be safe. I really can't see any situation where tubeless would be less safe than a tube... and similar to a tube with sealant..... unless you continued to ride with a tubeless tyre with very low pressure and burped out the pressure.

Even if I did my riding on perfect roads where punctures were infrequent, I would ride tubeless with just enough sealant to reduce air loss just because they are so fast and feel great. I believe a good tyre with a good latex tube is similar... So I would consider that also. But if you get any more than a puncture a year of a latex tubed tyre, I would go tubeless.... simlar comfort and speed... and no punctures. Also, latex tubes are not cheap. In my case with 15-20 punctures a year, I save a lot of money with tubeless. For me I get the durability of a gatorskin (which I still run on my commuter DF as its wheels can't do tubeless) with the comfort and speed of a race tyre. If you want to go slow to increase your training load... don't go tubeless... I ride to power with fast tyres... so I can just go a longer loop with tubless!!

 

[cpml123]

I am glad I saw the video @Frito Bandito sent regarding adding sealant into a tube. I got a Q45 and bought new tubeless 48mm Gravelking tires. Then the LBS informed me the wheels couldn't be converted to run tubeless tires no matter how much they tried. I ended up putting tubes with those tires and was a little disappointed.

Then I saw the video! It took me some time to find 650b tubes with removable valve cores (Continental). Back in business now. It's definitely heavier but I am just riding to commute, so just mark it as good training.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I am glad I saw the video @Frito Bandito sent regarding adding sealant into a tube. I got a Q45 and bought new tubeless 48mm Gravelking tires. Then the LBS informed me the wheels couldn't be converted to run tubeless tires no matter how much they tried. I ended up putting tubes with those tires and was a little disappointed.

Then I saw the video! It took me some time to find 650b tubes with removable valve cores (Continental). Back in business now. It's definitely heavier but I am just riding to commute, so just mark it as good training.

That is awesome. It is hard to find 700c tires here in Japan's bike shops that have removable cores as well, but I did. They are Bontragers and that is all I buy now with Stans unless they don't have the stem size I need. I forgot the name of the company, but they also sell a tube that already has the sealant inside for almost double the price.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Update on my current training setup that I thought should be here instead of on my thread.

I have Campagnolo Scirocco 35mm aluminum wheels on my V20 for training, and I tried to switch from a 25mm Schwalbe Marathon to a 28mm Marathon for a bit more comfort. No worky! The 28mm Marathon is too tall. Back to the 25mm. It might fit on the front but if it is too tight of a fit then I will use that 28mm Marathon for my commuter bike.