Vosadrian's V20 Journey - Australia
- Thread starter Bentsoup
- Start date
When I say a tailbox, I mean something like the race case... Not going for an all out faired like rear box. Just something that offers a practical way to store hydration and other stuff and adds rather than takes away from aero.
I'm thinking of buying a wheelset specifically for this bike. I'm sure my Rovals would work OK, but not sure I want to remove them from my DF and then have to swap back when I want to ride that. After a bit of research, the Yoeleo C88s look nice. 88mm deep and a wide rims well suited to 25-28mm tyres. They support tubeless without need for rim tape and seem to be stronger because of this. 20/24 spoke count which should be enough for my lowish 70kg weight.
I'll have to move my power meter across to get an idea of fitness. Will also be good to compare speed of the V20 vs DF as I have lots of PM data for my DF on my normal routes.
I feel that I could maintain 40kph on a straight uninterrupted flat road in light wind for a bit with the current setup (around 38-39 for 60km on last ride and that had lights etc.). If some addons lift that a couple of kph and I get my bent legs/fitness up, I feel 45 is not out of the question in optimal conditions... not that I have much of that around me!
I'm thinking of buying a wheelset specifically for this bike. I'm sure my Rovals would work OK, but not sure I want to remove them from my DF and then have to swap back when I want to ride that. After a bit of research, the Yoeleo C88s look nice. 88mm deep and a wide rims well suited to 25-28mm tyres. They support tubeless without need for rim tape and seem to be stronger because of this. 20/24 spoke count which should be enough for my lowish 70kg weight.
I'll have to move my power meter across to get an idea of fitness. Will also be good to compare speed of the V20 vs DF as I have lots of PM data for my DF on my normal routes.
I feel that I could maintain 40kph on a straight uninterrupted flat road in light wind for a bit with the current setup (around 38-39 for 60km on last ride and that had lights etc.). If some addons lift that a couple of kph and I get my bent legs/fitness up, I feel 45 is not out of the question in optimal conditions... not that I have much of that around me!
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Those increases are about what I have unscientifically experienced just with deeper wheels Jond. The Brain Bag or Dolphin Tailbox would be a nice addition for tours or ultra distance races.well buy a wind tunnel and blow me downdepends. Lots of aero optimism optimisation research by Larry o in these forums with facts and figures.
Wheels 1.5 klm/hr. Deep dish
disc rear add another 1 klm / hr
tail box depends on style and shape. Something like on domes bike around a 1.5 klm / hr. Vendetta with 32 spoke al wheelset and bachetta brain bag is as aero as dome with his bike as you saw it
a bag out back or cruzbike race case I would say a little gain. But smart storage.
You’re going to need a wind tunnel. And return to your former fitness.
for me 40 klm/hr is sustainable over 80 klm and I’m 59 and 81 kg at six one.
super slim
Zen MBB Master
Has Larry done any tests on a Race Case?well buy a wind tunnel and blow me down
Wheels 1.5 klm/hr. Deep dish
disc rear add another 1 klm / hr
tail box depends on style and shape. Something like on domes bike around a 1.5 klm / hr. Vendetta with 32 spoke al wheelset and bachetta brain bag is as aero as dome with his bike as you saw it
a bag out back or cruzbike race case I would say a little gain. But smart storage.
You’re going to need a wind tunnel. And return to your former fitness.
for me 40 klm/hr is sustainable over 80 klm and I’m 59 and 81 kg at six one.
Mathew Fy
GRU
Cruzbike did some wind tunnel testing with their Race Case:
"The Carbon Fiber Tail Box prototype works! At 0 yaw and 7.5 yaw the tailbox saved 2.3 Watts and 5.4 Watts, respectively, at a calculated rider speed of 24 mph. This is without two bottles sticking out of the top. Interestingly, when we added the two bottles, the Watts required to go 24 mph went DOWN 6.6 Watts at 0 yaw, and went UP 3.6 Watts at 7.5 degree yaw. This makes sense when you think about it. The bottles sit in the shadow of your head at 0 yaw, but are exposed by an oblique headwind."
https://cruzbike.com/blogs/blog/cruzbike-at-the-a2-wind-tunnel
@LarryOz , isn't that your Dolphin shared by @DocS ? I'm interested in any evaluation you may have done.
"The Carbon Fiber Tail Box prototype works! At 0 yaw and 7.5 yaw the tailbox saved 2.3 Watts and 5.4 Watts, respectively, at a calculated rider speed of 24 mph. This is without two bottles sticking out of the top. Interestingly, when we added the two bottles, the Watts required to go 24 mph went DOWN 6.6 Watts at 0 yaw, and went UP 3.6 Watts at 7.5 degree yaw. This makes sense when you think about it. The bottles sit in the shadow of your head at 0 yaw, but are exposed by an oblique headwind."
https://cruzbike.com/blogs/blog/cruzbike-at-the-a2-wind-tunnel
@LarryOz , isn't that your Dolphin shared by @DocS ? I'm interested in any evaluation you may have done.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Yeah Mathew - I do not really have any test data - I am mostly interested in things that I can race in and set records as a non-faired bent - This puts me into the faired bent range - If you are interested I can sell it to you. Let me know.
I think I am still getting to know the terms related to bents, and I used the term tail box, but I really meant something like a race case. I just want to keep it simple. No fairing type addons. Just want to be efficient as an unfaired bent. Would be great if I can cruise at 40-45kph with around 200W. On my DF at peak fitness, I can maintain that sort of power for many hours. Not sure if I will be able to on a bent.
DocS
Guru
Nope, it's Peter Lungren's from Sweden. It's a Thor Dolphin Tail Box.
https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/thor-dolphin-tail-box.13438/
Blessings,
DocS
jond
Zen MBB Master
Vossi at 70 kg you must be a shorter person ?
a small body is a major major windage advantage as evidenced by cruzbike wind tunnel test. Larry v Jim. Small guys are fast at higher speeds negating the mechanical advantage of longer limbs. That’s what Randy Newman sang about right.
However 200 watts on a non aero tucked df is around 30-32 klm/hr .you won’t see 45klm/ hr at 200 watts on any iteration of unfaired vendetta in my experience and observation. . That’s getting into fully faired territory. An aero tuck is worth around 40 watts bringing it closer to your vendetta position but no way near as comfortable. You cannot reinvent the wheel. Unless you stick a powered rear wheel in the back lol.
with your budget approval mate I’d say buy a bachetta brain bag from dt recumbents qld Australia around $110 au. Great bag. Perfect for your needs. Aero position practical and light. Fitment with oem seat with cheap aluminium flat bar.
yoleo wheels are great. Maybe think about transition to disc brakes if getting new wheels. Makes great sense. You can with yoleo nominate spoke count.
On the flats with aero wheelset and race case I could see you at threshold holding 42 klm per hour plus 1 or 2.
one thing for sure free speed can be addictive so much so real fitness can decline.
in the end it pretty much gets down to your body watts/kg your ftp. Cheap to improve the human motor if you can afford the time or are healthy enough to train.
The vendetta is stock super fast and tinkering on the aero edge is fun expensive and rewarding in a minimal speed improvement. Enjoy.
a small body is a major major windage advantage as evidenced by cruzbike wind tunnel test. Larry v Jim. Small guys are fast at higher speeds negating the mechanical advantage of longer limbs. That’s what Randy Newman sang about right.
However 200 watts on a non aero tucked df is around 30-32 klm/hr .you won’t see 45klm/ hr at 200 watts on any iteration of unfaired vendetta in my experience and observation. . That’s getting into fully faired territory. An aero tuck is worth around 40 watts bringing it closer to your vendetta position but no way near as comfortable. You cannot reinvent the wheel. Unless you stick a powered rear wheel in the back lol.
with your budget approval mate I’d say buy a bachetta brain bag from dt recumbents qld Australia around $110 au. Great bag. Perfect for your needs. Aero position practical and light. Fitment with oem seat with cheap aluminium flat bar.
yoleo wheels are great. Maybe think about transition to disc brakes if getting new wheels. Makes great sense. You can with yoleo nominate spoke count.
On the flats with aero wheelset and race case I could see you at threshold holding 42 klm per hour plus 1 or 2.
one thing for sure free speed can be addictive so much so real fitness can decline.
in the end it pretty much gets down to your body watts/kg your ftp. Cheap to improve the human motor if you can afford the time or are healthy enough to train.
The vendetta is stock super fast and tinkering on the aero edge is fun expensive and rewarding in a minimal speed improvement. Enjoy.
jond
Zen MBB Master
vossi is starting from 35-36 klm per hour as a baseline cruise speed with a training wheelset. . My experience is with a 60/70 mm wheelset enve powertap hub added after a similar ballpark baseline. Inspired by Larry and Jason I went on to infill the wheelset and continued testing around a velodrome open air. Free. But with weather variance. I never went the skin suit though.
the brain bag is much cheaper and I’d imagine quieter but not as efficient.
I'm normally around 70kg/174cm. I have garmin vector (series 1) power meter. For some reason, I have always found that my PM reads lower than expected. When I go on a bunch ride and pull equal turns, I get lower power than other riders I ride with... even with weight considered, I get W/kg lower than others. But my PM has been consistent. I always thought some other brands of PM inflated results as I am closer in reading to other vector PMs. I went through many years of data I have for my DF, and I generally find that for me on the fast roads around me:
* 180W is good for 31-33kph
* 200W is good for 33-35kph
* 220W is good for 34-36kph
* 240W is good for 35-37kph
There are some outliers. Like 215W for 39kph:
https://www.strava.com/activities/3037621199/overview
But the outliers are when I spend some time on the motorway so you get draft benefit from passing traffic.
So I can't really explain why my power numbers differ from normal... It could be that I am more aero than average on a DF (I have a good aero DF and did most fast rides in the TT like position), or it could be that my PM reads on the low side.
Anyway, my current plans for the V20 are:
* Race case or equivalent
* Deep wheels (Yoeloe C88?)
* Different handlebars... not sure what, but prefer narrower as I have heaps of leg room with stock bars
* Fit a spare Di2 groupset
I don't plan to do this immediately (gradually over the winter). I don;t have any intention to build fitness before spring, but come spring I will build up and see what I get. At the moment I just want to build my bike handling skills on a recumbent.
* 180W is good for 31-33kph
* 200W is good for 33-35kph
* 220W is good for 34-36kph
* 240W is good for 35-37kph
There are some outliers. Like 215W for 39kph:
https://www.strava.com/activities/3037621199/overview
But the outliers are when I spend some time on the motorway so you get draft benefit from passing traffic.
So I can't really explain why my power numbers differ from normal... It could be that I am more aero than average on a DF (I have a good aero DF and did most fast rides in the TT like position), or it could be that my PM reads on the low side.
Anyway, my current plans for the V20 are:
* Race case or equivalent
* Deep wheels (Yoeloe C88?)
* Different handlebars... not sure what, but prefer narrower as I have heaps of leg room with stock bars
* Fit a spare Di2 groupset
I don't plan to do this immediately (gradually over the winter). I don;t have any intention to build fitness before spring, but come spring I will build up and see what I get. At the moment I just want to build my bike handling skills on a recumbent.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
That sux doesn't it? I mean for other people, like me
I don't have a power meter and most likely won't buy 1 for the foreseeable future but I know that I have to increase my mileage and speed. I will be needing a better wheel set next Spring, particularly a disc brake 2-way deep front, and the Yeoloe Vossi wrote about seems to be a good one. Not sure if I will go with the Brain bag but it does seem to be the best option.
On another note, I really gotta start thinking of another hobby except spending every waking hour thinking about how to go faster for longer.
jond
Zen MBB Master
That sux doesn't it? I mean for other people, like me
I don't have a power meter and most likely won't buy 1 for the foreseeable future but I know that I have to increase my mileage and speed. I will be needing a better wheel set next Spring, particularly a disc brake 2-way deep front, and the Yeoloe Vossi wrote about seems to be a good one. Not sure if I will go with the Brain bag but it does seem to be the best option.
On another note, I really gotta start thinking of another hobby except spending every waking hour thinking about how to go faster for longer.
lol yes it will drive you and the family bonkers. Best to tune up the motor if possible.
frito I run yoleo 50 mm 28 spoke front rear disc braked wheels on my pelso. I think they are okay. You can nominate spoke count. Etc. communication was a little difficult but that was 2019. They honour warranty.
think about power meter it’s an honest metric better than heart rate and a boon for targeted training. These days for me the power meters are merely accusers.
.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Jond, if I can find a good PM for cheap, even if it is used then I surely will get one. The Favero Assioma dual sides are on my wish list but good LAWD those things must be made of 24K gold and platinum. Just not sure how well my ego can handle the brutal honesty of them though.
For wheels, I am going to put a ton of thought into what I want. Dynamo hub on something between 80-90mm to power everything or simply recharge during stops while carrying a power bank for emergencies?
For wheels, I am going to put a ton of thought into what I want. Dynamo hub on something between 80-90mm to power everything or simply recharge during stops while carrying a power bank for emergencies?
jond
Zen MBB Master
or fit a bottle side wall dynamo. I have both dyno son hub velogical dyno and axa hr. They all have advantages and disadvantages. For light fast travel I vote velogical. No dyno can keep you off the grid forever. Power banks especially the lithium polymer can have super fast recharge with a dedicated charger. 10,000 ma in less than 90 minutes. Flat to full. Really depends on what you want to do riding wise. Edit gosh tech has moved on and battery energy density has improved.
Yes a sidewall dyno can be fitted to a vendetta. Favero pedals can be converted to mtb clips.
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Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Ya know, my wife's cheapo Mama Chari has a sidewall dynamo that has a laughable light connected to it. Having seen 1 bike with a similar setup when I was young made me not even consider a sidewall dynamo, and I figured the fancy looking hub dynamos more efficient without considering the mechanics until I just read a few articles about sidewall dynamos about their efficiency. It looks like the Son Hub Velogical dyno and the PedalCell are the top 2 to consider but the Axa might be worth a look too. Thank you a ton for recommending it.
I think it was Shimano XTR SPD pedals that 1 Youtuber swapped out the steel axles spindles for titanium if 1 wants to exercise their weight weenie urges.
Jeezus! Owning a bike reminds me of owning a boat.
Bust
Out
Another
Thousand
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I've been searching for a cheap second hand set of Vectors to put on the V20 so I don;t have to remove them from my other bike, but have so far not found a set (one set went for AU$300 but I was too late). Probably not the best PM, but I am familiar with them and a few bikes in my family have them and after some initail hiccups, they have been very reilable for me. I do have a single sided set on my commuter that I could use, but not sure if I am balanced on the bent? I am pretty close to balanced on the DF, so would be happy with single sided on that. Either way, I will shortly move a set onto the V20. The results will be interesting. I don't feel I am very fit, but I am getting some fairly quick rides in. Would be great to find out I am achieving this at very low power meaning there is much more in the tank for when I get fit!!
Once you have had a PM for a while you feel a bit weird riding without one. Especially on a new bike. I have no idea of my fitness level. With a PM I could just target a power output and see how long I can hold it to judge my form.
I think shortly I will fit the PM pedals and my Roval wheels. I am curious to see if the low spoke count wheels have any issues due to low stiffness. They are totally fine on the DF, and I am still not quite sure how the V20 would flex them more?
I repeated the previous loop yesterday. A bit slower as I went during school pickup traffic so was caught in slow cars in some of the fast downhills sections, so I did not go as hard as last time. I did go up the same >15% pinch close to my house when I left and was in much better control this time (and managed to stay close to the side of the road). Still spins the tyre in perfect dry weather. Not sure I could get up it in the wet. I certainly would not want to do a sustained >15% climb on this thing.
I am using Look Keo road pedals which are single sided and a bit fiddly to clip in. I struggle a bit on a uphill start. Are most people on Vs using MTB pedals or some other easier to clip in arrangement?
Once you have had a PM for a while you feel a bit weird riding without one. Especially on a new bike. I have no idea of my fitness level. With a PM I could just target a power output and see how long I can hold it to judge my form.
I think shortly I will fit the PM pedals and my Roval wheels. I am curious to see if the low spoke count wheels have any issues due to low stiffness. They are totally fine on the DF, and I am still not quite sure how the V20 would flex them more?
I repeated the previous loop yesterday. A bit slower as I went during school pickup traffic so was caught in slow cars in some of the fast downhills sections, so I did not go as hard as last time. I did go up the same >15% pinch close to my house when I left and was in much better control this time (and managed to stay close to the side of the road). Still spins the tyre in perfect dry weather. Not sure I could get up it in the wet. I certainly would not want to do a sustained >15% climb on this thing.
I am using Look Keo road pedals which are single sided and a bit fiddly to clip in. I struggle a bit on a uphill start. Are most people on Vs using MTB pedals or some other easier to clip in arrangement?
jond
Zen MBB Master
pair the dynamo with a Bausch muller iqx dyno light. 100 lux. Brilliant beam pattern heaps of light.
The biggest criticism of bottle dyno is the operating noise. Personally I have grown used to it’s comforting whir. Purchased a second velogical. Lighting only. 1.5 watt.
The axa hr 3 watt is cheap reliable and I use on training bikes 2 of. Hurricane and sofrider.
I use the son hub 3 watt on trike and charge my electronics. Trike is fitted with klite lighting and electronics.
don’t discount sp shutter in dry climate as they are also great value and reliable.
I prefer bottles for my type of riding as the velogical is incredibly light and has zero drag when off the wheel. The noise factor feels like drag but rundown tests prove otherwise.
buy the red cap sport version if you go that route.
