Vosadrian's V20 Journey - Australia

[Frito Bandito]

I'll have to check those dynamos a bit more before buying. I already have a ton of lights that either have rechargeable AA or AAA batteries, or are simply rechargeable with micro usb. For the front I have a Lezyne Classic Drive 700lm that has many lighting modes, but I also have a 125lm (single AA) with a pair of rechargeable Panasonic Evolta 1950mAh batteries (7-8 hours of operation for each minimum). That light has a slide focus and fits snugly in the center helmet vent with velcro or zip ties, and is basically used for illuminating exactly what I need illuminating, or flashing at drivers pulling out from side roads or driveways to make myself a bit more noticeable. Best $7.00 I ever spent


I've got a similar 300lm light with 3 Panasonic Evolta AAA rechargeable batteries as well.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I bought my vector 3 from AliExpress for 500ish AU second hand but look brand new, might be an option ....

If I can use SPD with those then maybe. But they are cheaper than the Faveros.

 

[jond]

I've been searching for a cheap second hand set of Vectors to put on the V20 so I don;t have to remove them from my other bike, but have so far not found a set (one set went for AU$300 but I was too late). Probably not the best PM, but I am familiar with them and a few bikes in my family have them and after some initail hiccups, they have been very reilable for me. I do have a single sided set on my commuter that I could use, but not sure if I am balanced on the bent? I am pretty close to balanced on the DF, so would be happy with single sided on that. Either way, I will shortly move a set onto the V20. The results will be interesting. I don't feel I am very fit, but I am getting some fairly quick rides in. Would be great to find out I am achieving this at very low power meaning there is much more in the tank for when I get fit!!

Once you have had a PM for a while you feel a bit weird riding without one. Especially on a new bike. I have no idea of my fitness level. With a PM I could just target a power output and see how long I can hold it to judge my form.

I think shortly I will fit the PM pedals and my Roval wheels. I am curious to see if the low spoke count wheels have any issues due to low stiffness. They are totally fine on the DF, and I am still not quite sure how the V20 would flex them more?

I repeated the previous loop yesterday. A bit slower as I went during school pickup traffic so was caught in slow cars in some of the fast downhills sections, so I did not go as hard as last time. I did go up the same >15% pinch close to my house when I left and was in much better control this time (and managed to stay close to the side of the road). Still spins the tyre in perfect dry weather. Not sure I could get up it in the wet. I certainly would not want to do a sustained >15% climb on this thing.

I am using Look Keo road pedals which are single sided and a bit fiddly to clip in. I struggle a bit on a uphill start. Are most people on Vs using MTB pedals or some other easier to clip in arrangement?

16 spokes front wheel with 50/50 more weight equals caliper rub . Greater lateral flex.

Hopefully not ....due to the carbon rim 50 mm stiffness , high spoke tension and your weight weeny body. Roval 16 spoke front wheels were not made with cruzbike vendettas in mind. More spokes equals greater strength wheel and peace of mind . What’s not to love about 32 spokes on Sydney roads

ive never felt comfortable even on my df with 16 spoke front when travelling far from home. Yes I’m conservative.

on the really steep pinches pedal form and sitting up as a last resort can help. Sure as heck you’ll hit the bottom of the climb faster. When it’s slippery wet ...... well.....get ready to unclip and judge your personal safety with a big margin of error. That’s why I like practical mtb spd.

and of course get recumbent fitter with time on the bike.

not riding with metrics all the time can also be pretty liberating especially if all numbers are headed south.

Be safe.

 

[vosadrian]

That is a good buy! There is a set on ebay at the moment for $850 that I am thinking about.

 

[vosadrian]

The spoke count issue is one that interests me. Almost all my riding in the last decade has been done on a few sets of wheels and all are 16 spoke front and 20 rear. I've never broken a spoke in these wheel sets in around 50,000kms on Sydney roads. There is the Rovals and my climbing wheels which are Durace C24s. I have raced up to A grade level with these wheels and won many sprints (thought not in A unfortunately!!) outputting up to 1400W. I have found them to be stiff and responsive. At one point I got my Specialized Venge after previously competing on a cheaper carbon frame bike. I did notice a big improvement in stiffness on that, so I think I have the sensitivity to detect it. Pro sprinters use similar wheel setups. I'm not sure if they do something to run higher spoke tensions or something to improve stiffness, but the reviews of these wheels consider them to be quite stiff... but maybe that is not lateral stiffness you mention?

The Yoeleo C88s are standard 20/24 spokes standard. Coupled with shorter spokes and stiffer rim due to deep wheels, I think that should be fine for my 70kg. Either way... I might do a few rides on the Rovals.... and if there is issues I should find out soon enough and I can use that to decide on the new wheel spec I try. I guess that this boils down to for me is that I have loved these low spoke count wheels on my DF and would like to continue in that direction.... but it is possible that a V20 has unique requirements in wheel stiffness that I have not experienced yet.

What situation did you experience brake pad rub with lesser wheels JD?

 

[jond]

The spoke count issue is one that interests me. Almost all my riding in the last decade has been done on a few sets of wheels and all are 16 spoke front and 20 rear. I've never broken a spoke in these wheel sets in around 50,000kms on Sydney roads. There is the Rovals and my climbing wheels which are Durace C24s. I have raced up to A grade level with these wheels and won many sprints (thought not in A unfortunately!!) outputting up to 1400W. I have found them to be stiff and responsive. At one point I got my Specialized Venge after previously competing on a cheaper carbon frame bike. I did notice a big improvement in stiffness on that, so I think I have the sensitivity to detect it. Pro sprinters use similar wheel setups. I'm not sure if they do something to run higher spoke tensions or something to improve stiffness, but the reviews of these wheels consider them to be quite stiff... but maybe that is not lateral stiffness you mention?

The Yoeleo C88s are standard 20/24 spokes standard. Coupled with shorter spokes and stiffer rim due to deep wheels, I think that should be fine for my 70kg. Either way... I might do a few rides on the Rovals.... and if there is issues I should find out soon enough and I can use that to decide on the new wheel spec I try. I guess that this boils down to for me is that I have loved these low spoke count wheels on my DF and would like to continue in that direction.... but it is possible that a V20 has unique requirements in wheel stiffness that I have not experienced yet.

What situation did you experience brake pad rub with lesser wheels JD?

i put a sixteen spoke wheel onto rear of vendetta. Change direction rubbed. These were the wheels off a giant sl O isp roadie. Scandium rim dt Swiss hub. 1.3 kg wheelset. I’ve also broken a spoke on this wheelset front 16 spoke radial lace As well as the enve 6.7 set 24 spoke. Maybe my 81 kegs are the difference. Those same wheels front wheel df never rub on the road bike I surmise due to less mass over the wheel.

Certainly nothing to do with my chicken leg power.

those c88s are rim braked version with that spoke count . And 20 short spokes on the front wheel is more than 16

1400 watts. Wow. That’s unattainable to me 40 years ago. Wow.

lateral stiffness side to side movement of wheel

You will be side loading the sixteen spoke wheel as never before on a vendetta

you are about to find out if your light body weight allows your radial pattern 16 spoke wheel to perform under a heavier load.

 

[DavidCH]

Don't want to hijack the thread but I thought higher spoke count added to stiffer wheel. If the rear is going to end up covered disc... does a lighter spoke count really matter? The bike weighs quite a bit so it's not as though you need to save ounces? Its just one of my other projects is creating a tubular disc wheel based on a dtswiss 350 disc brake hub with 32 spokes. Basically the thing is made... just need to get myself into race shape.

 

[jond]

Don't want to hijack the thread but I thought higher spoke count added to stiffer wheel. If the rear is going to end up covered disc... does a lighter spoke count really matter? The bike weighs quite a bit so it's not as though you need to save ounces? Its just one of my other projects is creating a tubular disc wheel based on a dtswiss 350 disc brake hub with 32 spokes. Basically the thing is made... just need to get myself into race shape.

david my point is as you said. More spokes is good for little weight gain making a more reliable wheel. I personally at my weight would not fit a 16 spoke wheel to vendetta rear . I could not trust 16 spokes.

 

[super slim]

pair the dynamo with a Bausch muller iqx dyno light. 100 lux. Brilliant beam pattern heaps of light.

The biggest criticism of bottle dyno is the operating noise. Personally I have grown used to it’s comforting whir. Purchased a second velogical. Lighting only. 1.5 watt.

The axa hr 3 watt is cheap reliable and I use on training bikes 2 of. Hurricane and sofrider.

I use the son hub 3 watt on trike and charge my electronics. Trike is fitted with klite lighting and electronics.

don’t discount sp shutter in dry climate as they are also great value and reliable.

I prefer bottles for my type of riding as the velogical is incredibly light and has zero drag when off the wheel. The noise factor feels like drag but rundown tests prove otherwise.

buy the red cap sport version if you go that route. View attachment 11233
View attachment 11234 View attachment 11235

Jond NEEDS a MTB pedal power meter, so he can walk, when the gradient is above 8%!!!

 

[super slim]

david my point is as you said. More spokes is good for little weight gain making a more reliable wheel. I personally at my weight would not fit a 16 spoke wheel to vendetta rear . I could not trust 16 spokes.

20 or 24 Aero spokes would improve sideways stiffness, AND I think reduce aero drag!!!
Have the 60 and 80 mm deep Carbon rims, gone from 14 mm inside width to 24? mm Inside width, for added sideways stiffness AND so the rim outside width is the same as the tyre max width?

 

[chicorider]

My current rim brake 36mm carbon wheels are 24 front, 20 back, with bladed spokes in a 2-cross pattern, which adds strength and stiffness (bracing) over radial lacing. They have been great over the past five years--a nice balance between weight, strength, and aero (fewer spokes = more aero). Granted, I only weigh 130 pounds (60kgs). When I go to disc brakes, I will build a 24 bladed spoke front wheel, 2-cross pattern, with a 45mm Light Bicycle carbon rim, and a 24 bladed spoke rear wheel, 2-cross pattern, with a 55mm Light Bicycle carbon rim. If I weighed around 170 pounds (77kgs.), I might build with 28 spokes front and rear, still 2-cross.

 

[DocS]

VOS, you mentioned Wheel Slip when you were climbing...
Can I ask which tires (tyres) and what size you're using?
I had some issues with Conti GP5000 700cX23 and a little with 700cX25, but the 700cX28's have been pretty good inflated to about 80psi. I have some 700cX32s on my S40 and don't think I've had any issue with wheel slip...

Blessings,
DocS

 

[Frito Bandito]

The first 8 minutes of this video has me wanting Campagnolo Bora Ultra WTO wheels, which has their CULT bearings. I'm normally not a fan of ceramic simply because they cost so much, but in a spin down test from 78kph, it took 2 hours and 45 minutes for them to stop spinning. Are you kidding? And they are very aero comparable to the Hadron 485.

 

[jond]

VOS, you mentioned Wheel Slip when you were climbing...
Can I ask which tires (tyres) and what size you're using?
I had some issues with Conti GP5000 700cX23 and a little with 700cX25, but the 700cX28's have been pretty good inflated to about 80psi. I have some 700cX32s on my S40 and don't think I've had any issue with wheel slip...

Blessings,
DocS

28s with calipers can be a close run clearance issue. Caliper and wheel profile dependant.though I did not try gp5000 s they were 4000s back then with ultegra 6800 calipers. Too close with my wheels barely 2 mm clearance on bridge. Rear wheel

 

[vosadrian]

I'm thinking that the standard Yoeleo C88 which is 24 spoke drive wheel and 20 spoke non-driven. The rim is 88mm deep and 25mm internal width and has no spoke holes, so should be a solid rim also. I think that would be fine for all but a heavy powerhouse. I believe a major factor in lateral stiffness is the hub and how wide between the spoke attachment point... basically the more angle on the spokes is good for lateral stiffness. This is achieved with deeper wheels and wider hub. Not sure where the hub of Yoeleo sits? This would be good for 25/28mm tyres.

But I do plan to give the Rovals a go. Just curious how they would work. All my DF fast ride PRs are on those wheels. I know they (along with tubeless tyres) added a couple kph to my DF speeds.

I would not plan to use these wheels (Roval or Yoeleo) for a covered disk wheel for the rear. I would just use an old shallow wheel to do that if I went that way. But I feel that 88mm wheels front and back would be great for normal riding, only going to a disk in some competitive circumstances.

Current tyres that came on the bike are GP4000S 25mm. Running them at around 90psi at the moment. My plan is to go GP5000S tubeless with a 25 on front. Would be happy to run down to about 70psi. Should be better for climbing grip. I should note that where I get wheel slip is a steep pinch... probably 16-18%. I do it because I have to get to a road at the top of a hill and all the roads going up are similar graditent, but this one is the quietest for traffic. Once I get there (in the first 2kms of my ride), the rest of the ride has nothing near that gradient.

 

[vosadrian]

The first 8 minutes of this video has me wanting Campagnolo Bora Ultra WTO wheels, which has their CULT bearings. I'm normally not a fan of ceramic simply because they cost so much, but in a spin down test from 78kph, it took 2 hours and 45 minutes for them to stop spinning. Are you kidding? And they are very aero comparable to the Hadron 485.

Frito, you have to take that spindown data with a grain of salt. Those bearings would not have been tested to spin down in an actual wheel in normal air. If they did it would spin for a couple minutes at most. The reason being is that the aero drag of spokes/valve etc. is orders of magnitude greater than the bearing losses. They say in the video that the standard bearings last half an hour, but I bet you never spun a wheel and got it to spin longer than a couple of minutes. So what I am saying is that the bearing losses for a rider using actual wheels are negligiable. We are talking <0.1W. You could not detect this level of difference even in a tightly controlled test. The bearing drage is like <0.1% of total rider work load. I suspect the way they tested the bearings was either with the wheel in a vacuum, or with a flywheel with high mass (so it goes for a long time) and low aero drag.

 

[paco1961]

Years ago I built up a set of DA high flange track hubs for a single speed. Came across a few of those crazy videos of people replacing bearing grease w sewing machine oil to break some spin record. So without tires or tubes - just the built up wheel w Shimano stock grease from the factory , I threw the front wheel on my truing stand and gave it a good, hard spin. 9:33 before the wheel reversed direction on spin down. Pretty amazing efficiency. Of course that’s what we love about cup and cone arrangements.

Also, one year at the handbuilt bike show, talked to an Enduro engineer for about bearings and grease. Said they have to pull out all the analytical instrumentation stops to pick up the tiniest difference between the fancy, high grade and expensive grease (that they’re happy to sell to you) and the $50 for 50 gallons marine bearing grease they use as stock.

 

[jond]

I'm thinking that the standard Yoeleo C88 which is 24 spoke drive wheel and 20 spoke non-driven. The rim is 88mm deep and 25mm internal width and has no spoke holes, so should be a solid rim also. I think that would be fine for all but a heavy powerhouse. I believe a major factor in lateral stiffness is the hub and how wide between the spoke attachment point... basically the more angle on the spokes is good for lateral stiffness. This is achieved with deeper wheels and wider hub. Not sure where the hub of Yoeleo sits? This would be good for 25/28mm tyres.

But I do plan to give the Rovals a go. Just curious how they would work. All my DF fast ride PRs are on those wheels. I know they (along with tubeless tyres) added a couple kph to my DF speeds.

I would not plan to use these wheels (Roval or Yoeleo) for a covered disk wheel for the rear. I would just use an old shallow wheel to do that if I went that way. But I feel that 88mm wheels front and back would be great for normal riding, only going to a disk in some competitive circumstances.

Current tyres that came on the bike are GP4000S 25mm. Running them at around 90psi at the moment. My plan is to go GP5000S tubeless with a 25 on front. Would be happy to run down to about 70psi. Should be better for climbing grip. I should note that where I get wheel slip is a steep pinch... probably 16-18%. I do it because I have to get to a road at the top of a hill and all the roads going up are similar graditent, but this one is the quietest for traffic. Once I get there (in the first 2kms of my ride), the rest of the ride has nothing near that gradient.

c88 will look mean and woh Nellie fast.

c50 everyday use....getting caught by a crosswind burst with deep dish wheels on a vendetta is always a puckering experience. Buy two wheel sets and don’t tell the wife.

 

[vosadrian]

Well my estimate of a couple minutes was wrong! What sort of wheel was that in (spoked or disk)? The thing with a test like that is that initially when the wheel is going at high speed, the drag of spokes etc, is high. But when the wheel gets slower, the spoke aero drag on the wheel drops a lot more than the bearing drag... so the bearing will make a much bigger difference as the wheels slows down than at normal riding speeds.

I made an interesting observation with my Rovals with tubeless tyres. When I first got them I ran them with tubes. At the time I was storing my bike on a work stand so could spin the wheels. The front wheel would spin for a minute or two. Then I change tyres to tubeless with sealant. This changed the spin down for the worse massively. Would spin for maybe 30 seconds. When spinning slowly, the sealant in the tyre can move around creating heaps of drag in the tyre. I use it as a good test to see if my sealant has gone dry!!

But spin downs of over twn minutes does not change things. Lets say the worst wheel can spin for 1 minute. A good hard spin by hand might get it up to speed in say 5 seconds and you might be putting 10W power to accelerate over that 5 seconds so lets say 50 Watt-Seconds (Ws) of energy. If we assume that all energy lost is in bearings (it is not!!), they dissipate 50Ws of energy in 60 seconds. So that is less than 1W of deceleration power on average. That is a worst case scenario. Compagnolo made some claims of 30 minutes for a standard bearing . If the same 50Ws of energy is dissipated over 50 minutes it is less than 0.03W. These are nothing numbers compared to the aero drag on the spokes for a wheel spinning at >30kph.

If you are looking to gain fractions of a second over minutes riding, it may be worthwhile, but there are much lower hanging fruit for the typical Vendetta rider!

Those new Compag wheels look nice.... but there is lots of marketting crap in that video. I mean what is with the tubular tyre being one minute slower up a 20km climb than a clincher on the same wheel? I don't think the Pros choose tubulars to be slower!!

 

[vosadrian]

I do agree JD. But I already have a nice set of 50mm wheels... so want some different! This is part of the reason why I want to try the Rovals on the V20. If they work, I have a mid depth front wheel option I can choose in windy condiitons. If it does not work, I might rethink the wheelset I would get for a shallower front wheel.