2023 Cruzbike Summer Challenge

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Larry gave me a blistering time to chase.
Haha - Ken you are being too kind. Maybe Derek's time will be blistering - not mine.
I finished Cote de Domancy today so I am now done with all 4 of the easy ones. Now the 4 hard ones are left- :
Col d'Aspin - 12 km at 6.5%
Puy de Dome - 10.5 km at 8%
Col du Platzerwasel - 7.1km at 8.4%
Col Du Tourmalet - 16.9 km at 7.4%
..
These will take a long time - the longest of the 4 shorts ones was "Col des Aravis—4.4 km at 6%" - which took me almost 21min - so I'm guessing these will be way more than 1 hour each - heck: Col Du Tourmalet might take me 2 hours!:eek:
 
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Grrr arg I hate you guys if I do this it might mess up my maf training and weight loss should be down 18 lbs today. Grrr you are evil. Time to get a new swift trial and try climb #1 I suppose
Mr. Pankratz,
Having spent hours reading the incredibly informative threads on MAF training and keto eating that you started a few years back I was interested to know what hr you are using to maf now and also if you have listened to Peter Attia's podcast ( the Drive) episodes with Inego San Millan (sp) on zone two training or read his recent book, Outlive?
Your threads in this forum really changed how I trained for the better and it seems like the science is increasingly backing up the MAF concept, if not refining it a bit.
And welcome to the "challenge", Ken loves putting the hurt on others, I've tried keeping up with him many times. ;)
Jeff Moore
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
In essense I did MAF training while riding my bike while working (8+ hrs a day), and eating an extrememly low carb diet for about an 18 month period prior to Oct 2022. It truly works. Even with minimized heart function I was able to work up to ride 150 watts (for me at the time at 62kg = 2.4 W/Kg) - for a 24 hour period (which I did on Zwift just to see if I could do it). And all this with harlly ever "riding in the red" , meaning hard intervals (HIT training) - and over the top HR rates. Duing my normal 8 hr daily rides my HR was not much over 100. I think this is the easy way to build strength and endurance and also train your body to burn fat as fuel - but it does take a lot of bike time. During this time I was also able to ride a sub-4 hr Century (at about 190W (3.2 W/Kg) on electolyess only relying on my body to use my fat for fuel. It is quite amazing! I maintained this ability month after month without any high intensity riding.
Compared with the popular HIT training plans it is quite different. HIT does have the advantage of getting your top end strength much quicker and with less time on the bike, however I think it is harder on your body with more chance of injury - plus you still don't really gain much endurance. But for efforts 1 hour or less it works.
In the end, I don't think doing hard efforts compromises MAF training as long as it is doesn't become a significant portion of your training.
That means - yean Ratz - you can do the climbs!
This reminds me of the year I rode the Blue Ridge Parkway with the Parkers and others. It was 4 months after my heart attack & 1st stint and one money prior to my appoinrent where I received 3 other stints in my LAD. My doctor's order we to not exceed 130 HR. I did it - I did not climb very quickly but I still manage to make the climbs and not overdo it. It was more relacting and enjoyable in some ways. Kind of like: "Slow down and smell the roses" :)
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Mr. Pankratz,
Having spent hours reading the incredibly informative threads on MAF training and keto eating that you started a few years back I was interested to know what hr you are using to maf now and also if you have listened to Peter Attia's podcast ( the Drive) episodes with Inego San Millan (sp) on zone two training or read his recent book, Outlive?
Your threads in this forum really changed how I trained for the better and it seems like the science is increasingly backing up the MAF concept, if not refining it a bit.
And welcome to the "challenge", Ken loves putting the hurt on others, I've tried keeping up with him many times. ;)
Jeff Moore
I'll start a thread on this, as I think it might get interesting. https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/maf-training-2023.15212/

Meanwhile not sure I can do the climbing challenge I'm researching whether it will mess up my mission. Money is also tight so not sure zwift is something I want to allocate funds too.
 
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LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Just Finished the Col De Puy 62:46 - Amazling was able to average just over 200W for the climb - which is probably my hardest effort all year - yeah I know - still a weakling compared to Derek, and many others - but it is what it is - can't expect much if you don't ride much! :rolleyes:

The Col De Puy is a little bit harder than th Col D'Aspin - It took me 4+ min longer and my average power was 8W more af 201W.
Looks like I am making steady strength/fitness progress with the climbs - I started with the Cote D'Trebiac 12 days ago and was only able to average 196W for 16 min, and today I was 5W more for 400% longer.

1 climb left for me to get all 8: the Col Du Tourmalet - It is by far the longest effort - I will attemp on Wed so I get a rest day.
 
In essense I did MAF training while riding my bike while working (8+ hrs a day), and eating an extrememly low carb diet for about an 18 month period prior to Oct 2022. It truly works. Even with minimized heart function I was able to work up to ride 150 watts (for me at the time at 62kg = 2.4 W/Kg) - for a 24 hour period (which I did on Zwift just to see if I could do it). And all this with harlly ever "riding in the red" , meaning hard intervals (HIT training) - and over the top HR rates. Duing my normal 8 hr daily rides my HR was not much over 100. I think this is the easy way to build strength and endurance and also train your body to burn fat as fuel - but it does take a lot of bike time. During this time I was also able to ride a sub-4 hr Century (at about 190W (3.2 W/Kg) on electolyess only relying on my body to use my fat for fuel. It is quite amazing! I maintained this ability month after month without any high intensity riding.
Compared with the popular HIT training plans it is quite different. HIT does have the advantage of getting your top end strength much quicker and with less time on the bike, however I think it is harder on your body with more chance of injury - plus you still don't really gain much endurance. But for efforts 1 hour or less it works.
In the end, I don't think doing hard efforts compromises MAF training as long as it is doesn't become a significant portion of your training.
That means - yean Ratz - you can do the climbs!
This reminds me of the year I rode the Blue Ridge Parkway with the Parkers and others. It was 4 months after my heart attack & 1st stint and one money prior to my appoinrent where I received 3 other stints in my LAD. My doctor's order we to not exceed 130 HR. I did it - I did not climb very quickly but I still manage to make the climbs and not overdo it. It was more relacting and enjoyable in some ways. Kind of like: "Slow down and smell the roses" :)
Hey Larry and @ratz ,
Thanks for the detailed descriptions, they go a long way toward understanding the long term process. I discovered the MAF concept here on the forum back in December of '22 while working hard to improve in the Zwift league and always feeling wiped out with my Trainer Road or Zwift training plans while "racing" once a week.

I started doing nothing but 180-my age (66) HR workouts in December and finished out the Zwift season mid February. My FTP went from 142 in September to over 200 in February and I bumped up to Cat C in Zwift racing. I read Primal Endurance by Mark Sisson and The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance by Phinney and Volek and followed a 50 grams of carbs per day diet for at least a couple months.( lost 15#) I actually did my last two Zwift races on just electrolytes with no problems. I had two serious bonks in the fall, before I discovered "fueling" for races (scared my wife ;) , but had no problems once "fat adapted" I continued strict MAF training restrictions until mid- April.

My latest reading and listening has been Dr. Peter Attia's book "Outlive" and his podcast episodes (called The Drive) with Dr. San Millan on zone two training. San Millan is the trainer for the UAE TdF team (Pogacar) and a researcher at the University of Colorado ( if I remember correctly) He absolutely agrees with the zone 2 training process that started with Phil Maffetone but has a little different take on how to calculate it short of having the breathing apparati available to you in a lab setting . Their gauge is to train at a level where you can carry on a conversation but anyone listening to you will know that you are exercising . This is the highest level of activity that favors the production of mitochondria that prefer fat rather than ones that prefer glucose as fuel.

For me, changing the gauge has bumped my HR up to MAF+10+5 or @ 128bpm which is maybe over-reaching onMaffetone's guidlines. I am over 65, had been very active up until age 55 or so and have been back on the bike for a couple years now, so , honestly, 123 should be my guide hr. However, I can easily talk and ride at 128 bpm and put out @ 20 extra watts for long periods. I will probably do a one hour MAF test on the trainer at my original MAF hr in another few weeks to see if I am still progressing or have gone into the "black hole" training zone.

I guess my biggest training questions revolve around the balance of recovery and workout intensity.

I started using Training Peaks in April and am trying to get a handle on when to back off and when to keep pushing . I would like to try some sort of endurance competion as a goal to shoot for and haven't settled on the 6-12 time trial route or the Randonneurring route with maybe some self supported racing. I figured a year of good preparation would be necessary for either.

Larry , you told me to just sign up and race. I'm a bit more cautious than that but am going to do a 200k Randonneur route solo at a constant zone two hr in a couple weeks. I'll know more then. In the meantime this Zwift climbing challenge is filling the 20% training quotient for VO2 max workouts quite well. It's fun to feel the burn again. I'll be following the MAF 2023 training thread and trying to catch up to you guys. Thanks for all the help and sharing the wisdom.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Hey Larry and @ratz ,
Thanks for the detailed descriptions, they go a long way toward understanding the long term process. I discovered the MAF concept here on the forum back in December of '22 while working hard to improve in the Zwift league and always feeling wiped out with my Trainer Road or Zwift training plans while "racing" once a week.

I started doing nothing but 180-my age (66) HR workouts in December and finished out the Zwift season mid February. My FTP went from 142 in September to over 200 in February and I bumped up to Cat C in Zwift racing. I read Primal Endurance by Mark Sisson and The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance by Phinney and Volek and followed a 50 grams of carbs per day diet for at least a couple months.( lost 15#) I actually did my last two Zwift races on just electrolytes with no problems. I had two serious bonks in the fall, before I discovered "fueling" for races (scared my wife ;) , but had no problems once "fat adapted" I continued strict MAF training restrictions until mid- April.

My latest reading and listening has been Dr. Peter Attia's book "Outlive" and his podcast episodes (called The Drive) with Dr. San Millan on zone two training. San Millan is the trainer for the UAE TdF team (Pogacar) and a researcher at the University of Colorado ( if I remember correctly) He absolutely agrees with the zone 2 training process that started with Phil Maffetone but has a little different take on how to calculate it short of having the breathing apparati available to you in a lab setting . Their gauge is to train at a level where you can carry on a conversation but anyone listening to you will know that you are exercising . This is the highest level of activity that favors the production of mitochondria that prefer fat rather than ones that prefer glucose as fuel.

For me, changing the gauge has bumped my HR up to MAF+10+5 or @ 128bpm which is maybe over-reaching onMaffetone's guidlines. I am over 65, had been very active up until age 55 or so and have been back on the bike for a couple years now, so , honestly, 123 should be my guide hr. However, I can easily talk and ride at 128 bpm and put out @ 20 extra watts for long periods. I will probably do a one hour MAF test on the trainer at my original MAF hr in another few weeks to see if I am still progressing or have gone into the "black hole" training zone.

I guess my biggest training questions revolve around the balance of recovery and workout intensity.

I started using Training Peaks in April and am trying to get a handle on when to back off and when to keep pushing . I would like to try some sort of endurance competion as a goal to shoot for and haven't settled on the 6-12 time trial route or the Randonneurring route with maybe some self supported racing. I figured a year of good preparation would be necessary for either.

Larry , you told me to just sign up and race. I'm a bit more cautious than that but am going to do a 200k Randonneur route solo at a constant zone two hr in a couple weeks. I'll know more then. In the meantime this Zwift climbing challenge is filling the 20% training quotient for VO2 max workouts quite well. It's fun to feel the burn again. I'll be following the MAF 2023 training thread and trying to catch up to you guys. Thanks for all the help and sharing the wisdom.

Direct Message me your email address; and I'll chat with you about your data; if you have data in Training Peaks for that long; we can put it into the analysis tool, and it will give you feedback on if your balance between recovery and intensity. (Warning this week is a mess until Friday, so you might night hear from me until then.) Been developing this with another athlete that wasn't to get out of a slump

2023-07-17_12-15-37.png
 
So,... I tried a "fun" way to do the challenge ride today. I have my laptop hooked up to an old tv in the garage for Zwifting and usually ride early in the morning while I'm the only one up , ...and the Tour is on. So, I ran Zwift on my phone and "rode the stage" with the peloton this morning. I got dropped but didmae 58 minutes up Aspin. I think I'm learning to meter my effort better, a huge benefit of doing these challenges . Thanks again, Ken! and Larry!
Jeff
 

CruzLike

Guru
Hi All
We are heading into the last 10 days of this challenge. Larry has been leading the way with 7 of 8 routes completed. Jeff and myself with 5 and Derek and Jim with 4.

This challenge seemed to be more fun before I started it. While I'm climbing, turning that crank, I'm also scratching my head. Kudos to all that have come this far.

Yesterday I rode up Col De Aspin. That was one Larry referred to as a FTP test. I wanted to lay down a big number. I started on fire. Soon to become a smoldering flame. Strava claims I had a 213w avg. That is not enough to propel this 212lb fat body up the slopes. That could have been a "gimme" ride. (an easy one for you)

1689777275698.png
 

Always-Learnin

Vendetta Love
You guys (and gals) are amazing! You are my idols. I long to be like you and have your ability to CLIMB!!! The Cote de Domancy almost killed me, but, I'm giving it my best shot. Residual breathing issues thanks to the gift that keeps on giving (COVID) are making this even more challenging. Onward and Upward!!! Literally... :) :) :) :cool:
 

Always-Learnin

Vendetta Love
So,... I tried a "fun" way to do the challenge ride today. I have my laptop hooked up to an old tv in the garage for Zwifting and usually ride early in the morning while I'm the only one up , ...and the Tour is on. So, I ran Zwift on my phone and "rode the stage" with the peloton this morning. I got dropped but didmae 58 minutes up Aspin. I think I'm learning to meter my effort better, a huge benefit of doing these challenges . Thanks again, Ken! and Larry!
Jeff
You my friend, are a beast!!!
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I rode Tourmalet yesterday and just about killed myself: https://www.strava.com/activities/9481440443
I have done all 8 climbs now! I did the last 4 "long" ones every other day = 8 days
Tourmalet was a horribly long 89 minutes for me and I'm still feeling it today -
First issue is I had just ridden Puy De Dome 2 days ago and averaged my highest 62 min wattage of the year at 201, then worked outside in the heat all the next day. Then I "forgot" I might need nourishment riding Tourmalet, and only had 2 water bottles of just water for what ended up being over 2 hours of riding including a 20 minute warm-up before statring the climb.
What was I thinking? = Guess I wasn't!! - First sign should have been I just could not keep my HR up high like was able to one the "other" long climbs - Maybe a combo of not emough recovery time and no calories while riding
I know many may beat this last time of mine. Live and learn - haha
Ken - do I at least get a special prize for getting them all done first! haha
 
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