Steering damper/stabilizer

[Rick Youngblood]

Anyone who has not had the privilege of using a wheel flop stabilizer has not right to criticize its viability. There's a reason for the saying "you don't know what your missing".

A proper wheel flop stabilizer setup should have almost no effect on normal bike handling due to its progressive resistance design. The only time you could feel the effects of the spring would be very slow tight turns and just barely if you focused on it.

I'd wager if a CruzBike came from the factory with a stabilizer that 90% of owners would keep it with the remaining 10% choosing to ditch the extra weight. I totally agree the cost would most likely raise $50-100 per bike from the factory for such a feature.

Hey Jason. My post was not aimed at criticizing the Flop Stop as an option. I'm betting possibly 50% of Cruzbike owner would purchase one as an accessory. If I was still riding the Silvio, I may have considered it. BUT only as a Flop Stop and not as a steering stabilizer to counter the effects of pedal steer for myself.

I'm criticizing folks for saying the bike is flawed and that a pedal steering stabilizer is required/necessary and the bike should be sold equipped with one....and that a steering stabilizer must be included into the design of the bike to help learn the Cruzbike....the Vendetta does not kill. I will not criticize folks for using them for whatever purpose. Heck, Larry has used them, and Gary (bentareo). As a matter of fact Gary came up with a very cool looking one, but I believe it was used for a Flop Stop and not for pedal steer.

Now with that all said. If some one has the time, ingenuity, to develop a lightweight, unobtrusive, adjustable, can be engaged when needed, and disengaged while riding Flop Stop for the Vendetta. I may be interested.

 

[RojoRacing]

Hey Jason. My post was not aimed at criticizing the Flop Stop as an option. I'm betting possibly 50% of Cruzbike owner would purchase one as an accessory. If I was still riding the Silvio, I may have considered it. BUT only as a Flop Stop and not as a steering stabilizer to counter the effects of pedal steer for myself.

I'm criticizing folks for saying the bike is flawed and that a pedal steering stabilizer is required/necessary and the bike should be sold equipped with one....and that a steering stabilizer must be included into the design of the bike to help learn the Cruzbike....the Vendetta does not kill. I will not criticize folks for using them for whatever purpose. Heck, Larry has used them, and Gary (bentareo). As a matter of fact Gary came up with a very cool looking one, but I believe it was used for a Flop Stop and not for pedal steer.

Now with that all said. If some one has the time, ingenuity, to develop a lightweight, unobtrusive, adjustable, can be engaged when needed, and disengaged while riding Flop Stop for the Vendetta. I may be interested.

I wasn't pointing anyone out, I'm only stating a few facts for anyone who's interested in them.

Why would you want to disengaged it while riding? Like I said when properly setup(like mine) you can't even feel it when riding. Remember in my thread when I made the around the boom clamp to replace the original alloy bar attached via the water bottle mounts? The week or two I was making the new style clamp I didn't have my trusty stabilizer and I never noticed any difference on the road. I did how ever curse the bike every time i had to roll it in and out of the shop

How lightweight are we taking? because mine isn't exactly heavy. I don't feel like mine is obstructive in any way but maybe someone else has a different opinion. My current design is infinitely adjustable so that box is checked.

My latest design was meant for mass production but with only one request and for the older larger boom which I don't have a model for yet, I didn't proceed to make any more. If you're interested I send you a setup and you have mess around with it and give your opinion. I owe you at least that much for past help. Note that you'll have to commit to drilling you frame but if you did decide it wasn't for you a simple button head bolt will seal and hide the hole no problem.

 

[trapdoor2]

I am working on a fixture (steering lock) design for the work stand. After nearly 10 yrs of handling Cruzbikes, I no longer even think about it when rolling one around or loading it into the car rack. Getting it into the work-stand and working around it is a different thing entirely. I typically use a bit of nylon line and my Boy Scout skills to lasso the front end...but I would really like a nifty-swifty steering lock that features easy on/off, doesn't interfere with things like wheel removal or brakes or cables and won't damage the paint.

I've got a plastic U-fork in mind at the moment...it will use the front brake mounting hole (I've got disc brakes fitted) and fits between the downtube and the front fork (in line with that brake mounting hole). The fork fits over the downtube with a T-handle thru the brake mounting hole. It could alternatively be fitted more as a wedge (same position) and retained with a strap (Velcro? Bungee?) over the flat top of the downtube. Basically, all it does is block the front end from flopping...which is all I want. Would probably be a good candidate for 3D printing.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I wasn't pointing anyone out, I'm only stating a few facts for anyone who's interested in them.

Why would you want to disengaged it while riding? Like I said when properly setup(like mine) you can't even feel it when riding. Remember in my thread when I made the around the boom clamp to replace the original alloy bar attached via the water bottle mounts? The week or two I was making the new style clamp I didn't have my trusty stabilizer and I never noticed any difference on the road. I did how ever curse the bike every time i had to roll it in and out of the shop

How lightweight are we taking? because mine isn't exactly heavy. I don't feel like mine is obstructive in any way but maybe someone else has a different opinion. My current design is infinitely adjustable so that box is checked.

My latest design was meant for mass production but with only one request and for the older larger boom which I don't have a model for yet, I didn't proceed to make any more. If you're interested I send you a setup and you have mess around with it and give your opinion. I owe you at least that much for past help. Note that you'll have to commit to drilling you frame but if you did decide it wasn't for you a simple button head bolt will seal and hide the hole no problem.

Jason, I didn't think you were, and appreciate your feedback, as a matter of fact was expecting it.

In my my mind we are talking about two different devices.

1. The wheel flop stop for pushing the bike around, lifting the bike, pushing it up a hill where I just ran out of gas, leaning it up again a tree or road sign. We can all relate to this in this way. For the record I've never been opposed to this, and if one would have been available in my early riding days, I'm sure I would have invested in one. At this point I've made due and am used to all the bad characteristics of having a floppy front end. Again a fantastic idea, and a no brainier that works.

2. Front end pedal steer stabilizer. This has been talked about many many times and has a lot of Controversy. Can it be used as a "training wheels" device that can help folks having a hard time with pedal steer? Many think not, some think so. There has been no real evidence for or against. Will it hinder ones natural ability? Maybe Bob might have some feed back after the retreat this week. We're all for helping folks develop the skill set to be able to ride with control and confidence.

Not directed to any one post above, just my personal opinion and is only worth two cents for anyone willing to pay: it is not necessary for the Cruzbike to have a pedal steer stabilizer other that you, your legs and arms are enough.

 

[RojoRacing]

Any device designed to effectively counter pedal steer would need to be so strong that it would heavily influence general steering negatively. The pedal steer that people are trying to eliminate on these bikes is so small(less then 5 degrees) that your only option would be a heavy influence in hat area.

On motorcycles we use steering stabilizers which are a small unit that mounts to the bike and works via hydraulics. Now the units are easily adjusted from levels of resistance 1-10 via a knob right on top. Normally anything 1-5 on the adjuster can't be felt on the track but if your in the pit area making 5 mph turns you will feel a noticeable resistance. I properly setup bike ran settings 1-3 which are only really effective if the bike gets into a violent head shake but isn't really felt anywhere else. Now there are times when a bike just isn't happy with its suspension setting and will tend to head shake finishing most corners while accelerating. I had a bike like this one year that was dubbed the devil bike because it felt like it was trying to kill you after every corner. On that bike I ran the stabilizer at setting 8 which could only be felt on track which quick left right flip flop corners and while in the pits going slow. That bike was dropped several times in the pits by other riders and mechanics because they would try to steer and fail to turn hard enough thus falling right over after doing the one legged hop trying to save the bike.

So a new rider would kind of be like the devil bike so a high setting would be needed to go strait but you'd destroy their chance at slow speed cornering. An advanced rider could benefit from a high setting but the benefit would be much less and you would still kill their slow cornering. A more mild setting may help a bit to go strait but like I said above the settings don't have a common window. If you help with one you ether destroy the use of the other or not influence it at all.

There is not secret pill, there is not special app that will make you ride strait.

My current setup can be tensioned to the point that it would stabilize a newer riders pedal steer but I don't have a new rider to test it on. Once we get to the point of designing such a device we are no long able to test it ourselves for effectiveness. It's really to bad you guys don't have my bike up there in Portland right now to let the newer riders try it out.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

It's really to bad you guys don't have my bike up there in Portland right now to let the newer riders try it out.

That shouldn't be a problem for you Jason, just toss it on the back of your Ninja, and it's only a matter of minutes before your up there?

 

[RojoRacing]

That shouldn't be a problem for you Jason, just toss it on the back of your Ninja, and it's only a matter of minutes before your up there?

Broken hands are a huge limiter right now, I can't fit my swollen hand into my gloves

Besides if it's a CruzBike convention is just ride the V strait up there. I do have a 474 miles per day range

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Broken hands are a huge limiter right now, I can't fit my swollen hand into my gloves

Besides if it's a CruzBike convention is just ride the V strait up there. I do have a 474 miles per day range

Ohh, still healing from the dreaded break. Bob mentioned someone up at the retreat dose have a bike setup with a steering stabilizer.

 

[joy]

Come on boys, I'm a soon to be 66 year old woman who loves chasing down younger roadies on my Silvio and Vendetta, just the way they are. Just suck it up and ride .(smiley face didn't show up)

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Come on boys, I'm a soon to be 66 year old woman who loves chasing down younger roadies on my Silvio and Vendetta, just the way they are. Just suck it up and ride .

Good for you !

 

[1happyreader]

. The wheel flop stop for pushing the bike around, lifting the bike, pushing it up a hill where I just ran out of gas,

totally by accident my sofriders mirror mount is in a sweet spot that allows me to one hand walk like a roadie. Happy accident.

 

[ratz]

Ohh, still healing from the dreaded break. Bob mentioned someone up at the retreat dose have a bike setup with a steering stabilizer.

I am working on spy photos

 

[Balor]

Hardly the way most people would initiate an objective technical discussion.

Aggressive wording is still aggressive wordy and dressing it up in follow up posts does change the nature of them nor does it confuse the majority of people that read it for what it is..

Ok, I agree, and I am genuinely sorry for how I initiated this discussion. This is not usually how I go, but it happens sometimes - I *am* not the sanest of persons, I freely admit it (good catch, heh) - and sometimes it gets out of hand. It gets me in trouble sometimes, for the very 'honey vs vinegar' reasons. *shrugs*

Though, while I am sorry for the tone and choice of words, I stand by everything thing that I've said about benefits of steering damper AND flop stop... and I'm still rather peeved by the fact that a recumbent bike manufacturer that is all about 'ending bikeism' and 'promoting recumbentdom' prices his recumbents out of reach of most perspective buyers (ok, I know that is being rather petty of me, due to being poor and not being able to afford a Cruzbike, but still) and offers a design that is notoriously hard to learn and handle, and did nothing so far to introduce technical features that would make it easier (people being helpful on forums with guides is good, but NOT enough).

While RojoRacing already pointed out that 'return to center' spring is very useful for MBB (that would be 'flop stop'), I think that it is only half of what is required to make MBB truly user-friendly.

I've meant the real steering damper he described - the hydraulic, adjustable kind.
Motorcycles are equipped with steering dampers not only to combat speed wobbles - they actually make heavy, hence - inertial steering easier by offloading some of the damping from your hands to hydraulics.

Since your legs, your boom and your cranks rotate with steering, they all contribute to inertia. The are also located quite a bit from steering axis - hence, inertia get even larger, nearly by a square of distance.

Of course, we also have legs to do the steering damping. Unfortunately, they are kinda busy doing that peddling stuff and not everyone has perfect kinaesthetics. There are people doing stunts I cannot dream of - doing backflips on unicycles, for instance, and riding them offroad. So, I've spend nearly one year on my diy MBB, that would be about 3k miles... and I'm only beginning to ride one-handed confidently enough to sip from water bottle! 'No-handed' is out of the question. Admittedly, it took me a year to get confident riding no-hands on DF, but I'm not here to brag about how 'pro' I am at cycling - I'm here to actually help by hightining a real issue and a relatively easy way to solve it.

Of course, I might be wrong about it - there is no way I can install an aftermarket steering damper on my current MBB, and can neither find nor afford cycling specific Hopey damper:
http://www.bikemag.com/blog/hopey_steering_damper_review

They are right about it being an accessory that is not really needed on DF bike, but it was used to great effect by a one-handed rider - it allowed him to control steering with only one hand.
Due to my poor kinaesthetics, I'm basically 'one-handed' myself when it comes to MBB. There are people like me, and it is elitist to dismiss real issues because 'it will go away, just give it a few years!'.

 

[Balor]

By the way, in case I do not make myself clear, steering on a bike is all about make fast and exact changes in wheel orientation.
This is done by first providing acceleration to move the steering, then STOPPING it at the angle where you need it. Both are hampered by steering inertia - and MBB design inherently has loads of it.
While you cannot do anything to initial steering inertia (barring design changes), the second, 'damping' part can be helped by a steering damper.

This is not about 'pedal feedback', which is a completely different, and much less pressing issue. I've adapted to it very quickly myself. It is due to overcorrections from insufficient 'damping' I've crashed a couple of times during my own learning phase.

 

[ratz]

The hopey dampener is the one being tested. It is an oil based hydraulic as discussed in the thread It works as is and as tested, any one could acquire it and install it today. but it is not perfect 100% perfect for MBB and the practicality and affordability are issues to be overcome. Can the rate of dampening be optimized, can the price be mitigated, are there hidden issues that have to be unearthed? these are all small things, but important things that have to be addressed before a small firm can introduce the option and support it in a quality manner. Failure to test and assess leads to legal fees and failed businesses. Also it's not a flop stop but perhaps a range limiter version can be created. It is all being looked at. Cruzbike understands that such evolutions in the product offering will broaden the reach and appeal of the bikes. It is also fair to say it is probably on their minds far more than ours

Jacob (the chief designer) reads here and may decloak now and then to discuss this topic. Fortunately the Cruzbike design cycle is often multiple iterations per year so we see more advancement each year than big companies (really we do ) it just does always seem like it because we as an audience embrace advancement unlike those that worship at the UCI alter and fear change.

Competing with the dampener goal are many other important projects, including the long standing goal to have a stunning entry level cost bike and more seating angles in the primary line. So while I don't have details and it is not time yet to make promises.... things are marching in a direction that will make you quite happy. It will take just a bit more patience than you like but not anywhere as much as you fear,

 

[Balor]

but it is not perfect 100% perfect for MBB and the practicality and affordability are issues to be overcome.

I suppose it lacks adjustability? Does it have one-way valving?
Btw, you may look into elastomer 'steering dampers' on flevobikes. While not exactly what we are looking for, it seems to be a cost-effective solution.

I'll be experimenting with negative angles so far myself, and since it'm mired in financial difficulties, I recommend you try it yourselves, too - who knows long long that will take me, and it does seem to solve one problem entirely and lessen the severity of an other by an order of magnitude.
The entire MBB thing seems a fractal reflection of a greater 'Recumbent vs DF' 'conflict'. DFs are great for what they are, but have some advantages that recumbents neatly solve - while introducing some problems of their own.
So are MBBs vs recumbents - they solve some problems like power delivery and unequal wheels, but introduce their own, like steering inertia and wheel flop.
You need to look past the 'tribal attitude' (sorry, but I really do dislike 'tribal' stuff, this is one of my peculiarities) and see the problem for what it is - engineering problem, and solve it, not get stuck denying the obvious while 'rooting for your team' - pain and actual damage in case of DFs, power loss in case of recumbents and steering inertia and wheel flop in case of MBB.

Competing with the dampener goal are many other important projects, including the long standing goal to have a stunning entry level cost bike and more seating angles in the primary line. So while I don't have details and it is not time yet to make promises.... things are marching in a direction that will make you quite happy. It will take just a bit more patience than you like but not anywhere as much as you fear,

Excellent! That is exactly what I'd like to hear. My, admittedly, overreaction is because I actually care, not because I'm hateful or vindictive or something.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

You need to look past the 'tribal attitude' (sorry, but I really do dislike 'tribal' stuff, this is one of my peculiarities) and see the problem for what it is - engineering problem, and solve it, not get stuck denying the obvious while 'rooting for your team' - pain and actual damage in case of DFs, power loss in case of recumbents and steering inertia and wheel flop in case of MBB.

Balor, first of all my remarks to your comment are written in a kind way and with no disrespect.

Trying here not to repeat myself. Sorry guys if I am, but I just don't want someone coming across this thread thinking that the pedal steer is a problem, nuisance, and that it needs fixing.

I feel like I'm a part of this community, and thus a part of this tribe. My threads, posts, and comments are my own thoughts and not part of a "tribal attitude" mentality, please don't label me/us as such. We don't have committee meetings to decide what is globally right or wrong.

Pedal steer on my Silvio 2.1 and Vendetta 2.0 is not an engineering problem that needs fixing, for me and what seems for most other folks. You simply pay your dues; time + patience + miles = it feels and seems non-noticeable and no longer is an issue or a thought and becomes natural, just as a fixed BB. At the end there will be the huge reward of owning a comfortable fast, extremely efficient recumbent bike that can take on many personalities as Has been pointed out in other on going threads. I personally am in no way inhibited by the pedal steer. I'm as nimble on these two Cruzbikes as I was on any non-MBB recumbents (RANS V- Squared 2, X-Stream Team, B. Corsa, Metabike, Tour Easy, etc). All recumbents have their issues, take it or leave, wheel flop, heel or toe interference, etc.

 

[Balor]

Pedal steer on my Silvio 2.1 and Vendetta 2.0 is not an engineering problem that needs fixing, for me and what seems for most other folks. You simply pay your dues; time + patience + miles = it feels and seems non-noticeable and no longer is an issue or a thought and becomes natural, just as a fixed BB. At the end there will be the huge reward of owning a comfortable fast, extremely efficient recumbent bike that can take on many personalities as Has been pointed out in other on going threads. I personally am in no way inhibited by the pedal steer. I'm as nimble on these two Cruzbikes as I was on any non-MBB recumbents (RANS V- Squared 2, X-Stream Team, B. Corsa, Metabike, Tour Easy, etc). All recumbents have their issues, take it or leave, wheel flop, heel or toe interference, etc.

Please notice that I don't actually LIST pedal steer among 'problems' of MBB bikes. You learn to compensate for it by shifting your pedalling patterns to 'scraping' soon enough, and it actually DOES help by providing feedback about how most efficiently pull on the handlebars for maximum power in sprints. It gets automatic very quickly, I agree with you completely. So, in way, it does 'go away' and cease to be a problem - though for some it might still present a problem.

You also learn to deal with wheel flop and steering inertia, that's right. But it is more tiring, require more concentration, and wheel flop is a real PITA when moving the bike around (I do randoneering, for instance). And neither of those actually 'go away'. You cannot wave away the laws of physics. I=mR^2, and weight above steering axis would result in unstable equilibrium no matter how much miles or patience you have under your belt.

So, the problem exists. Some get used to it quickly, others... not so much.
In YOUR case, you may have enough hand-foot coordination, so to speak, to fully compensate for steering inertia, wheel flop and steering input combined. Good for you...
While I can bet my life (actually, I do already by riding my MBB, heh) that in some extreme case inherent steering inertia may prevent me from executing a move that I'd be able to do on a bicycle with no steering inertia and it may actually cost me my life or health. Chances are slim, of course, but they are above zero. I've already had a couple of crashes and a few 'near misses'.
I'm still taking them, knowingly, because MBB 'fits' me much better than other designs I've tried. But while I'm still riding my old MBB, I'm in a process of making a prototype with no wheel flop and much reduced steering inertia. Once I'm done, I'll post my (honest) impressions.

 

[Robert Holler]

No promises but as ratz stated I am testing the dampener that we played with for a short time at the retreat. If I think it is worthy of actual consideration I will test in on Cycle Oregon in September - but only if I think it is a viable add on that will not suddenly fail on me.

One of my issues with add-on dampeners etc is that they are always one more item that can fail on you when you least expect it or want to to. If the Hopey one can help a bit without being a hinderance or without having its possible failure mean a critical handling issue all of the sudden, then maybe it could be an option.

My initial tests of it that it help a very small amount for the slow speed stuff - and I mean very small. This is not a training wheels type of thing. If anything, I see the benefit of it being at the higher speed end of the spectrum.

Robert

 

[ratz]

You need to look past the 'tribal attitude' (sorry, but I really do dislike 'tribal' stuff, this is one of my peculiarities)

I'll address this once but I really don't want to divert the core thread (I'll separate them if necessary) but since you repeatedly bring it up, as a tent pole of your argument it seems necessary.

Understand that the history of "The Cruzbike Tribe" has absolutely nothing to do with earning a right of passiage or mastering the MBB. It came about last year in support of several members doing extra-ordinary boundary pushing (for them personally) things. I don't remember if I, @Lief or @Abbott Smith coined it. But it was derived from some banter about the Familial experience of this place; and what happens when we happen to meet each other in the real world; which is usually more hugs than handshakes. (In the U.S. that's rather abnormal, but perhaps it's improving). Somewhere along the way it stuck.

What we have here in this forum a unique corner of bike enthusiasts that have a statistically odd slant to the glass is half-full side of the equation. We enjoy each others company, we revile in solving problems and helping other succeed and we are not stingy with our time or knowledge. Lastly and potentially most importantly we do not make up answers, we actually try it in the dirt and report back; leaving the speculation for other places. When someone struggles with learning the bike we do get passionate in trying to help; we know what success means and it pains us when someone really struggles; hence the floods of:

• encouragement
• don't give up's
• tell us what you are experiencing

99.9% of us here do not control how the bikes work; we are just customers. Passionate customers of a company that has earned our respect by listening to our feedback and when possible and practical has incorporated it into the product lines (even when we are testy about it). So we help with what we know works and try to pedal-steer people past difficulties.

The reactions at the start of this thread go way back further that the thread itself. At one time we had a couple people have disasterous results with home brew stabilizers because they lacked the necessary skills to create one beyond a bungie cord; and worst they did so without trying the bike without them, they left mad and unhappy. Basically they assumed they needed them from the get go sight unseen, and said so in many places; So when that became a recurring "belief" of newbies who didn't even own the bike yet; the community countered it by supporting the idea that you can easily learn to ride the bike without one; and perhaps you should try it first and see. (Sort of like tasting your food before you dump a bunch of salt on it; better to know how much salt you need to get a good result). All of that predates any notion of Tribe; and was simply the experienced people debunking the myth that the bike are hard to ride; which they are not; they are simply different to ride; and thankfully they continue to evolve and improve in many ways that will draw a larger audience. Successful homemade items like Jason and Gary made are the two well documented exceptions, and they simply had the skills and knowledge to do it right and with a specific personal goal in mind.

Everyone is welcome here, the tribe isn't going away, but that's just another way to say we are a family and one that continues to grow. The successful participates, are: Authentic, Honest, Genuine, Consistent, and Reasonable; everyone is welcome and really we don't care if you own one of the bikes yet; we are convinced that at some point in time there will be a model that suits you.