RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
If you’re doing it right it should be very hard the last 1/3, that’s the point.
Cruzbike Time Trial Challenge 2020
- Thread starter LarryOz
- Start date
Bill Wightman
Well-Known Member
Yes it is hard at the end, but is that the best way to ride it? We know it is ineffective to go out too hard and die off early and it is equally ineffective to go out too easy and try to make it up at the end. So I am thinking that on the next ride I will ride the first six miles at my last PR average speed which should leave gas in the tank to ride last six miles at a moving average PR+0.2mph (by the end of the TT) pace. If you are riding consistently hard each week and getting sufficient rest, then you should have extra capacity in the following week. I will try to only use my weekly increased power output on the last part of the ride when HR is typically rising too high. It is a way of spreading out the pain. Maybe, maybe not.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Thanks Maria and Bill - it is amazing how much time this takes each week - but since I am a "numbers" junky I guess it works out! haha
Bill - to answer you question based on what I have seen and do sometimes:
Since you are using a power meter - that should be what you are primarily looking at. This is because HR can be fickle. For instance, if you see a super sexy cool looking bike fly by you and you get all excited you HR will go up 10 bpm without any relative increase in effort.
Since you have a power meter, you should know you 1HR FTP - If not go run one of the FTP tests and get that number down. All other training and effort should be derived from this number. Ideally you go and ride as hard as you possibly can for 1 Hr, but most people will do the "ramp" test and get a pretty good approximation because the 1 HR test is worse than riding our TT and if you do it right you won't be dong anything for the rest of the day or the next.
Assuming now that you have your 1 HR FTP - "They" say, you should basically be able to run 10% over your 1 HR FTP for 50% of that time = 30 minutes. and conversely if you run 10% less you should be able to go twice as long = 2 hours. With proper endurance and fitness this works out pretty closely and I have tested it myself. If you are more of a "sprinter" type of person it might be easier to increase 10% for 1/2 the time that someone who is more of an "endurance" rider. I am the example of the endurance rider. I seem to have trouble going much "harder" than my 1 HR FTP even if I only ride 30 minutes. Sometimes it might just be that I am not feeling well enough to perform at the level. Usually I just don't want to suffer than much!
When you train your FTP will probably go up if you are training with that goal and do a good job. Then you have to re-take the FTP test since you may under-perform using the old FTP value.
Having said all that - once you do know your 1 HR FTP level, then you probably also know your Threshold HR, and you probably know that once you go over that HR for a small period of time you are toast.
So, saying all that - yes, at the Threshold HR level, once you get up to it then the sexy bike isn't gone to make it go any higher (thank the Lord for that) - and you will know what riding on the edge of that knife feels like, regardless of your power output.
But, also with higher FTP and fitness your max HR and your Threshold HR will also probably increase. That is why it is good to push yourself as hard as you can on certain training efforts so you know where you are at and what it feels like.
Hey, it is even good to go past what you think your max is to see that that feels like also to know how long you can do it at the very end of a race or a TT
...
What I do sometime for our TT is set a minimum avg speed I want to be at, at the end of my TT. Then I try and "beat" that running average as I am riding. But, I am also looking at my avg HR and my avg Power for that lap too. (Remember I am numbers junky!) But the problem with just looking at the "avg speed" for an out and back is that is you have the wind with you going out, you are probably going to underperform if you are trying to match a speed, then you will "die" on the way back as you fight the headwind to maintain your avg speed. Obvioulsy it can work the other way too if you are fighting a headwind first. You might put yourself in the red just to maintain an average speed and then have nothing left on your return trip
Still best advice it to pic an average power you want to maintain (which might be a little higher than you have done previously) and work on that aspect. It is motivating to me to have the number to look at, and if it starts getting lower than I want, I just push more - haha - yeah - if my little heart will let me -
Sorry for rambling on like this - there are obviously many ways to approach this to try and PR on your TT without cracking. Try some different methods and find the one that works best for you and stick with it.
My hat is off to you Bill for averaging in the 180's, being someone like me in the (60-69) age group - that is outstanding!
- You are obviously very fit
Bill Wightman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the advice. I looked at the Power Curve from Strava analysis plot and pulled out essentially 200 watts at 1 hour on a smooth curve. Your calculation of 1.1 times FTP for 30 minutes was spot on for last TT for which my average (~30 minute) power was 219 watts. I will switch metric for next TT from average Speed to average Power. I will still try to finesse it by maintaining average Power from last PR in first six miles and then try to ramp up to an average PR Power + 5 watts by the end of the TT. That should help accommodate elevation and wind influences as you stated but also help reduce the power "fade" toward the end of the TT. Fun stuff to try out.
Lief
Guru Schmuru
So my dad (JimZ) and I jumped on the wagon last weekend starting week 7.
The fun thing we have to report is that this was his first time on these racing bikes. when I first bought my Silvio 1.0 in 2008 he tried it and swore it off “too hard to balance”.
then when the T50 came out he bought one and found it much easier to learn on.
ffwd 6 months to a demo ride I was giving near his house and he jumped on my V20 for a spin. To his surprise he could ride it now. (It’s much harder to wrangle than my Silvio).
ffwd another 24 months and I had convinced him that since I now have two (operational) Vendettas we can ride together on similarly matched bikes.
ffwd to Father’s Day 2020 and I didn’t have to twist his arm when I said “let’s join the TT challenge on the race bikes.”
“I can’t turn that down!”
So we estimated (back of the napkin style) that since his average speed for over 10 miles on his T50 is about 14mph that he should see 19mph on this similar course - I gave him a 7m 15s handicap based on my best time and he beat me to the line by 3 full minutes!!
His average speed was actually 20.6mph!
This Friday he only gets a 4m 15s head start.
If we can synch up with Robert some day it would be fun to have a three-way handicapped race to see if we can get all of us finishing together!
The fun thing we have to report is that this was his first time on these racing bikes. when I first bought my Silvio 1.0 in 2008 he tried it and swore it off “too hard to balance”.
then when the T50 came out he bought one and found it much easier to learn on.
ffwd 6 months to a demo ride I was giving near his house and he jumped on my V20 for a spin. To his surprise he could ride it now. (It’s much harder to wrangle than my Silvio).
ffwd another 24 months and I had convinced him that since I now have two (operational) Vendettas we can ride together on similarly matched bikes.
ffwd to Father’s Day 2020 and I didn’t have to twist his arm when I said “let’s join the TT challenge on the race bikes.”
“I can’t turn that down!”
So we estimated (back of the napkin style) that since his average speed for over 10 miles on his T50 is about 14mph that he should see 19mph on this similar course - I gave him a 7m 15s handicap based on my best time and he beat me to the line by 3 full minutes!!
His average speed was actually 20.6mph!
This Friday he only gets a 4m 15s head start.
If we can synch up with Robert some day it would be fun to have a three-way handicapped race to see if we can get all of us finishing together!
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
3% doesn't sound like much, but after a certain point 3% may as well be 20%. You wouldn't think it could be so hard to go just a little faster for only a little bit longer, I mean all you have to do is try a little harder right 
DARYLHANGER945
Member
It finally uploaded. took 24 hours for it to show up on my YouTube page but it finally did so I can finally share it. Unfortunately the software I use to edit wont allow metrics to be added from my Garmin computer and i was not able to add commentary to the video without changing the format to panoramic which i think defeats the purpose of a 360 video. The time trial starts at about 45 seconds in just after i pass the white house on the right. The camera is mounted vertically to the tiller of my Nocom about half way between the pivot and the gunners. The view is a bit wobbly because of this but then again I do wobble side to side on this bike a bit. if viewing on a phone you should be able to pan around with your finger or just move your phone left, right, and up, and down (I know you looked down) 360 in all directions. if you are on a computer you can use the mouse to click and drag the view. I was racing against more than just my self last week as the dark blue sky area is rain that was moving towards me in central Indiana Sunday. Also if you know of a better software to use to edit 360 video from a Samsung gear 360 I would like to try it out.
Mathew Fy
GRU
I see you switched from your yellow Vendetta to a Volokraft Nocom. Are you happy with the change?
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Very cool Lief - Yes, this is how it is done in real life (and how I will do it at this year's retreat TT) - Everyone leaves in reverse order of their PB, with "secs" in between the deltas from their PB. If everyone rides their PB, then you all reach the finish line at the same time! It is pretty cool. This is what Alvin Maxwell does every Thur in Wash, NC. He has anywhere from 10 t0 20 people turn out each week. A lot of fun
DARYLHANGER945
Member
I ride both the vendetta and nocom interchangeably. I intended to ride the Vendetta in this challenge all the way through but week two I had to switch. Since that switch I had not ridden the Vendetta until last night when I went riding with my teammates and the route is hilly so the vendetta does better on that route. I tried to ride that route last week with them on the nocom because I had forgotten to switch out which bike was in the car that morning. That ride ended abruptly when I hit a crater (pothole) that made the front wheel look like a heart and cracked my rear zipp disc. I was able to switch the wheels out for my open wheels for last weeks TT and still got a pb. Only 2 seconds off my best for last year with the covered front and zipp rear. Went off topic there i guess. In the end I love riding each of these bikes. The nocom is faster over a longer solo race for me but the vendetta is better at hills and I can sprint faster and draft better on it so each one has its place under me. The ct700 dosent see much action.
Veinbuster
Member
I've been mostly ignoring my heart rate except as a guide to whether I am really working hard or just feeling a bit off.
I've been doing the ride much as you described your new tactic. My GPS is set to 5 km intervals and each interval I watch average speed so I can maintain each 1/4 of the TT at my previous personal best speed. My route has some blind turns which slow the bike, so the 5km average lets me manage the overall ride. There is always one interval where I have no traffic, or a bit of a tailwind that gives me a gain over the previous week.
As to the last 3 miles (my last 5 km interval), I try to pick a day to ride where I won't finish into the wind. It is much easier to start into the wind than to finish into the wind. I do this most rides, not just the TT.
Rob Lloyd
Well-Known Member
I don’t know how you stay awake. No potholes, cars or even other cyclists to dodge.
They pave the farm roads down there in Indiana? Wow, you guys got money or something.
I sometimes feel like I practically live in a 3rd world country here in Michigan.
Bill Wightman
Well-Known Member
Speaking of abrupt endings to rides but without expensive broken hardware, tonight I had my first TT fail. I was paying too much attention to my power levels and not enough to the road when I got too far to the side and into some fresh mud deposited by dump trucks entering the road earlier in the day. My choice was to lose steering and crash on the road or continue in a straight line off the road. I chose to continue off the road and went into a huge deep mud puddle. It was like a NASA deceleration sled with mud flying everywhere. Only thing I broke was a rear light bracket. It was a good way to crash from 27 mph. I was glad to have a visor on my helmet covering my glasses. I had to remove the mud covered visor to see my way home. I will try again maybe late Friday night.
I am glad you didn’t get hurt and you don’t need an expensive fix to your bike.
I started my TT last evening with a less than fully charged Garmin. The battery lasted until 5 minutes after I completed the TT. I felt lucky.
DARYLHANGER945
Member
I never thought the county roads were that great. Most of the time they chip n seal them but half of my route had been completely removed and repaved a few years back. not sure why they did it. may have been something wrong structurally with the road bed in that area.
I must be a cyclepath. I missed my best chance to go do my TT this week because family dropped in unexpectedly yesterday as I was getting ready to head out. Because of that it left me with the only option of doing it late Sunday after driving back 6 hours from Cleveland when come sort of Saharan dust cloud is supposed to be in our area. That option did not sound appealing so I made the unapealing decision to get up at 3:30 this morning and go ride it leaving me enough time to get back to the car and go straight to work. Well I apparently turned my alarm off and fell right back asleep. Luckily my amazing wife woke me up 5 minutes later when she realized I was back asleep. Fueled up with a cup of coffee and headed out. New problem arised as I have never ridden the Nocom at night, the head light needs to illuminate the road. All the typical mounting points that I place the light are angled slightly back and aim the light up and not at the road. after about 5 minutes I was able to make it work on my helmet. In the end I was able to complete the TT completely in the dark and only saw one car oncoming and one overtook me. Winds were non existent and the temp was a cool 60F. I would say those were perfect conditions other than getting up at 3:35.
A side note. I think I need to mount a smaller tyre on the new rear wheel. The old one was a Zipp disc with a sew up glued to it which was quite narrow. Can'r remember but it was either a 18 or 21 mm tyre. The new one is 25mm and mounted on a 25 mm wide Vuelta V8 carbon wheel. It all fits when stationary but when I put some power into the pedals I can hear the tyre rubbing the frame lightly. I may want to remedy this before I rub a hole in the side wall. Going to look into mounting a 23 mm tyre onto the 25 mm carbon rim.
With no power meter, I have to use HR and previous performance as proxies. I've been working on the turbo over the winter with some progressive power workouts so I have a reasonable idea of where the HR is vs power in those controlled circumstances, and how much pain I'm willing to put up with. My TT course this year is not suited to managing it as a steady HR with lots of turns and short, sharp changes in elevation. My mindset has become one of splitting the course into sections and replaying in my mind the characteristics of each part that I need to achieve. I'm thinking at various points of HR, cadence, current speed, average speed by a certain turn etc and then the details of at this turn, I take this line and don't need to change gear, move to the right here to avoid a patch of rough tarmac, hit this hill hard as it has a false flat descent afterwards, but this hill is double crested so I need to have something for the second bite, max the HR here as you've got a downhill coming...
After that it's just 30+ minutes of grinding agony, just for the hell of it.
After that it's just 30+ minutes of grinding agony, just for the hell of it.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Wow - is all I can say - If I had to think about all those things while I am pedaling and breathing as hard as I can - either my brain would explode, or I would just stop pedaling to think about the other things!
Wow - is all I can say - If I had to think about all those things while I am pedaling and breathing as hard as I can - either my brain would explode, or I would just stop pedaling to think about the other things!
There is always the fact that all this stuff is useful to distract my mind from the distance remaining and state of pain at point X
nobrakes
Well-Known Member
I had a bad shift at the turn today and managed to knot my chain twice round the crank, ripping the battery cover off the NGEco power meter in the process and trashing the plastic cover mount points. Unbelievable, I’ve never seen anything like it. Took me 15 minutes to sort out!
Some people will do anything to avoid suffering....
some of you might remember all the trouble I had with the SRAM yaw FD on the V20. We thought it might be the derailleur post angle but the shifting is just as bad on the M5. Just can’t make it work reliably. I think I’ve tweaked my Shimano FD on the Fuego once in 4 years. Need to replace at some point.
Some people will do anything to avoid suffering....
some of you might remember all the trouble I had with the SRAM yaw FD on the V20. We thought it might be the derailleur post angle but the shifting is just as bad on the M5. Just can’t make it work reliably. I think I’ve tweaked my Shimano FD on the Fuego once in 4 years. Need to replace at some point.
