How to make your Vendetta as fast as possible

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Wow... I was not aware there were so many options. Are any options known to be more aero than others?

I have not seen such testing data.

However, based on Triathletes testing, a 1X with aero chainring would be faster, especially 10-20 yaw from the left. I have read of several watts (2-5) savings depending on the speed. I would guess the advantage would be similar or probably better on the bent because the air around the crank is clearer than on an upright. Obviously, losing the FD is a savings too. A laced shoe like the Giro SLX is a handful of watts at 50km/h over a velcro strapped shoe. Running those tests is easy but the cost of the gear isn't.....so, sorry.....just a guesstimate based on lots of reading in the Tri world and my guess it would work here.
 
I'm not planning on changing my gear system.... just wondering if certain crank arms and rings available in shorter sizes are more aero than others? I am after 2X11 cranks set in about 150-155mm crank length and 52-36 rings (or maybe 53). Are they all pretty much the same from an aero perspective? It seems like it could be an important part of a bent for aero since they are exposed to clean air at the front.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I'm looking at AXS 12 speed and a 150 mm 1X crank from a 2x 175 mm crank. If I do it, I'll post the CdA change. A smaller circle on the legs has to present less area and no FD and only one ring has to be more aero.
 
Doing a bit of research on this....

* Rotor cranks look like a nice piece of kit, but it seems you can only get short cranks in the expensive version and they are very expensive (like >$500 for arms, spyder, rings) and do not take standard 5 bolt 110mm chain rings. Am I reading this wrong? Are there a budget version of these in short version?

* All the other options look similar, but the BBK is much cheaper for me.

I might try the BBK 155mm. So the BBK seems to have GXP interface. This is SRAM right?.... so I can use this BBK crankset with Bottom bracket from SRAM rival direct swap? I assume I could try the wickwerks 53/34 ultra wide with these if I wanted to? I'm thinking 52/36 is probably good enough for me though.
 
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Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
I bought some .75mm thick acrylic material thinking it could be a contender for making a disc wheel. What I was hoping it would do was to reduce the number of thin wrinkles that Oracover left on the CF fairing on my 80mm rear wheel. Well, I finally got both sides installed on my wheel and took it out for a test spin today. The good news, it didn't fall off and get stuck in the spokes causing me to crash. I was pretty sure that wouldn't happen anyway since I used plenty of velcro strips to hold it on, and then used vinyl tape around the edges near the brake tracks to smooth out the air flow. Despite doing excellent taping and cutting jobs the acrylic material doesn't sit flush against the spokes in any symmetrical pattern, leaving bulges in some areas and valleys on other areas, making it what I figure to be only marginal gains for a pretty substantial effort. Even though .75mm is pretty thin, it, the velcro and the vinyl tape added a lot of weight to the rear wheel. I was considering how durable and how much less maintenance it would require over the Oracover, but IMO, it is just not worth the effort. I could probably make it work better by somehow evening out the bulges, but that would require a lot more effort, and would likely add even more weight. So this means back to Oracover (Japan's version of Monokote) in the near future. The only problem I face now is choosing a color since they are out of black.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Doing a bit of research on this....

* Rotor cranks look like a nice piece of kit, but it seems you can only get short cranks in the expensive version and they are very expensive (like >$500 for arms, spyder, rings) and do not take standard 5 bolt 110mm chain rings. Am I reading this wrong? Are there a budget version of these in short version?

* All the other options look similar, but the BBK is much cheaper for me.

I might try the BBK 155mm. So the BBK seems to have GXP interface. This is SRAM right?.... so I can use this BBK crankset with Bottom bracket from SRAM rival direct swap? I assume I could try the wickwerks 53/34 ultra wide with these if I wanted to? I'm thinking 52/36 is probably good enough for me though.

I believe you are correct. 110mm and 4 bolt. I think Vision makes a more reasonably priced aero crank but only down to 160 or 165

I ordered my AXS. One AXS red upgrade kit with rim levers, RD, FD. Also a TT version 1X, basically AXS blipbox and 36T AXS Red rear derailleur. I am putzing on the crank decision. I am thinking of running 48T and 11-36 (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17....36) rear using a Rotor 12 speed cassette and rotor or praxis 12 speed ring up front with the KMC X12 chain. It might not work but it should. Otherwise, I have to try to upgrade my wheels to XDR and use 10-33 SRAM cassette, flat top chain, and rings, which is not what I want to do. So, this explains why I am slow to buy the crank at this time, I want to see if my Franken plan works.
 
My first ride today with the deep wheels.... Yoeleo 88mm front and back (25mm version with GP5000 tubeless 25mm tyres with 30mL sealant). It was a warm and windy day... Spring has arrived in Australia with 27C and westerly wind. The wheels are noticably more twitchy than my 50mm wheels, but they were fine. No issues at all, and will not even notice after I get used to it after a few rides. I did one fast section with a strong cross wind, and I did sense some sail effect. I could hear the wind strong in my ears as I leaned the bike over into the wind to counteract it, and the bike just kept rolling at high speed when it felt like it should be slowing down. It was my fastest average speed on this loop (by about 1kph) and the power was similar to my other faster loops (but lower power today by about 5W). Also, traffic lights did me no favours today and cost me a few tenths a kph. Of course, today was in different conditions to previous times I have done that loop... so will reserve judgement for more data. I should mention that MyWindSock gave me the lowest CdA on this loop I have gotten also (0.163) which matches my best CdA on MyWindSock with the 50mm wheels, but that was on a different loop that typically gives better CdA as the road surface is better. I will get out on the faster loop soon.

On other news, the Novatec hubs roll well, and have a suitably obnoxious ratchet (much louder than my Roval DT Swiss hub!), and the rolling noise of the deeper carbon wheels is much noisier than my 50mm Rovals which were not that quiet. At 50-60kph the whoosh noise of the carbon is so loud you really can't ignore it. In fact, it would get irritating the noise at that speed for a long time!

I'll hold back on a review of Yoeleo and other aspects of the wheels for the time being. I want to give them a chance to rectify something and see how they handle that.

And finally a pic:

IMG_1277.JPG
 
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Just a quick review on the Yoeleo wheels:

I chose Yoeleo for the following reasons:
* Match well to Conti GP5000 25mm tubeless tyres (good width match and tubeless support)
* They do not need rim tape as they do not have spoke holes in the rim bed... so a bit less hassle for tubeless
* The spec for them is quite light for the depth (with Sapim spokes, 1850gm for a ~90mm deep rim which is good)
* They have a modern U profile and appear to be about as aero as you can get on a V20 before it is not daily rideable on roads with traffic and wind. Sapim spokes are also known to be very aero and robust.
* Except for the rim, all other parts are known quantities and easy to get for maintenance (Novatec hubs, Sapim spokes/nipples)
* The price is much better than bigger brands which easily get to 2-3X more
* They seem to review well.

So I ordered them in early July. My order is the C88 in rim brake/25mm with the upgrade to Sapim spokes. A few days later I was contacted to say they had delays of 10-15 days. This ended up happening several times. Long story short, there was a few frustrating emails as the delay they said would expire and they would add another delay, but the wheels ended up arriving at my house in early Sept... so basically a 2 month weight (with about 10 days shipping). I almost pulled the pin a couple times. They did communicate the delays... but it seemed they were just stringing me along... but the wheels did eventually arrive.

The wheels arrived in good condition. They look great, were well packed and spin true. They look as good as my Rovals looked when they came out of the box. They seem better quality that you might expect, and do not look like cheap chinese wheels. They also included spare spokes (one front and one rear), brake pads, skewers etc.

After unpacking them, I put them straight on to the scales to see if they were in expected range.... dissappointment. The wheels were 50gm per wheel heavier than the max range they specify (so 100gm heavier for the set at 1960gm which is heavier even than the cheaper spoke version). I checked as well as I could that all the parts were as expected (hubs, spokes, nipples) and that was all good, so I came to the conclusion that the rims were 50gm heavier than spec. I contacted Yoeleo and they took some time to get back to me (apparently they did not get the first email, but responded quickly to the second), and apparently they have improved the rims to make them stiffer and stronger, but have added 50g to the weight. Apparently the performance is better? But they have not yet updated the website. I was not very happy about this, but chose to go with them anyway. If it was my 7kg DF bike that I use for sprinting, I would have sent them back. But 100gm on my V20 is well under 1%, and the V20 is more about maintaining high speed than accelerating quickly, so I can live with it.

So I fitted my 110mm valves I got off ebay and I put the tyres on which fitted up fine... a bit difficult as always with GP5000-TL, but easy enough with a couple of tyre levers. The first time they did not seal with the floor pump, so fired up the air compressor and they sealed up fine. Left over night before adding sealant. They lost pressure overnight as expected. Added sealant and they pumped up fine with the floor pump. With sealant they have been holding pressure well... much better than my Rovals which I think is due to no rim tape. I think much of the pressure loss in the Rovals is through the tape. I put the wheels on the bike and adjusted the brakes.... ready to ride!

First ride was great. They feel quick. I can't notice the extra weight over the Rovals, and they roll at least as well. Ratchet is very noisy, but kind of cool (my Rovals are very quiet). The whoosh noise is very loud at high speed... nice to remind you to keep your speed up. They seem to have good ride (no worse than Rovals), but that could be the tyres at 80psi. Speed wise, they seem about 1kph (@~35kph) faster than Rovals (which were 1.5kph faster than the stock alloy wheels). I am getting some brake shudder and noise but I ran then at first with some work black prince pads (approved), and they may need some bedding in. I have changed to the Yoeleo pads to see if that is better. I think they just need some kms, and perhaps some wet braking to bed in the surface and they should be fine. They are not as bad in the wind as I expected.... but they are noticably worse than the 50mm Rovals as you would expect. Quite managable in all but extre circumstances. I did one ride at high speed (>60kph) with a strong cross wind and was leaning into the cross wind. A truck passing the other way disturbed the cross wind and sent me a couple metres towards the middle of the road. I've not had anything like this at normal speeds, so just need to take care at high speed in traffic with big cross winds.

On MyWindSock, the CdA seems to have improved about 0.015, but early days, so may be lucky with the 2 rides so far. Eventually I will try to enclose the rear wheel and see if there is any benefit.

So a bit of a mixed experience. There are compromises... the service and delivery time is not up to my expectations for big expensive brands like Roval. The specifications are a bit loose and appear to change without notice. Sometimes you may win here, but I feel I had a loss. Having said that, the quality appears good. They use some good quality parts for hubs and spokes and the rims they supply appear good quality. From a riding perspective they seem good and should perform at very close to the level of wheels costing 3X more. I only have around 200kms on them so far. Hopefully I many tens of thousands of reliable kms from them.
 

jond

Zen MBB Master
Great review vossi. Mate I would say yoleo do a good job. Communication for me too was a little difficult. But they do stand by their product and the quality is as good as any at a very reasonable comparison price. They do get a decent review. And fix any issue under warranty.

after having rim braked enve 6:7 set and disc braked yoleo 50 mm set I would say buy yoleo. And go disc brakes. The enve set are very nice but imho not that much nicer. Value v bling. Hmmmm . For some it’s a choice ;) being poor it’s not so much a choice for me. I got my enve set second hand.

I think you will get great reliable value from your new wheelset.

the v20 looks great.
 

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
From what I have read about them, they seem like good wheels. And even though they are a bit heavier than advertised I would still consider them.
 
They seem like a fast wheel and they look good. They also feel nice in terms of ride and handling. The brakes seem like a weak point (rim brake). I'm pretty happy with the braking with my Rovals. They do not squeak or shudder and work well in the dry. Not great in the wet but I avoid riding in the wet, so no big deal for me. I did my first ride on Yoeleos with their brake pads... and no better. They make heaps of squealing noise and shudder. Near the end of my ride I came down the hill near my house and my wife walking down the hill. She said she heard me well before she saw me. Hopefully they will bed in and work better. They stop the bike with heaps of bite, but it almost seems like they are biting too hard and then oscillating in a shudder. I'll give it some time and see what happens. I'll google solutions for noisy carbon rim brakes.

I'm with you JD. I can't afford a $3k wheelset that could get trashed from a pothole. The Yoeleos are a fraction of that and braking aside seem to perform as well. They also use commonly available parts for spokes/hubs etc. So if you break something, it should be easy enough to sort out. And because they are not that expensive, I can use them as a daily wheel rather than just for special occasions! I'm not that interested in changing over the brifters and everything to go disc brakes. Rim brakes do me fine. But I may change my tune if I can't get these braking quietly like my Rovals.
 

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
Searching around for parts on a few webpages for local shops I found a pair of FC-R9100 Dura Ace 54/42 chainrings in almost new condition for about $200US. I really would like the 54, but the 42 would be too big for me to do any climbing.
 
They make heaps of squealing noise and shudder. Near the end of my ride I came down the hill near my house and my wife walking down the hill. She said she heard me well before she saw me. Hopefully they will bed in and work better. They stop the bike with heaps of bite, but it almost seems like they are biting too hard and then oscillating in a shudder. I'll give it some time and see what happens. I'll google solutions for noisy carbon rim brakes.

Try giving them more leading edge toe in. I set my pads up by putting a piece of thick cardboard between the pad and rim at the rear of the pads, hold the brakes tight then tighten the pads to the calipers. You really want the front of the pads contacting the rim a lot sooner than the rear.
 
I'll give that a go Andrew. I have done that in the past with some alloy brake track brakes that had shudder and it fixed that. I would have already done it except that the pads I am running are too new to open the calipers enough to do that. I find the calipers that came on my V20 (gossimar?) do not open that wide compared to the Shimano calipers on my other bikes. Maybe I need to get some Shimano calipers onto it to match the rest of the groupset. Or I need to wear these pads down quick!
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
Try giving them more leading edge toe in. I set my pads up by putting a piece of thick cardboard between the pad and rim at the rear of the pads, hold the brakes tight then tighten the pads to the calipers. You really want the front of the pads contacting the rim a lot sooner than the rear.
If you bought good quality SHIMANO rim brakes, then the brake pads come with a raised edge at the back for correct toe in!!!
 

Rob Lloyd

Well-Known Member
Printed some modified mirror covers. Guaranteed to save 1.003 watts and shave 3.5 seconds per 100 miles.

Nice. I gotta find access to a 3D printer...

EDIT: Oh, wow! You can buy a 3D printer (FDM) for ~$200 now?!? That's crazy. I'm going to have to get one on the way now.

I've been wanting to make some disk caliper aero covers and this is the way to go...
 
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