Andrew Wilson
Guru
I sent you a message,
I imported the file from here and then modified.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1004039
How to make your Vendetta as fast as possible
- Thread starter Tor Hovland
- Start date
I imported the file from here and then modified.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1004039
Andrew Wilson
Guru
sure thing, see if this zip file with the 2 stl files works.
to use the Lezyne cover you also need a bracket to attach the quarter turn mount to the handle bar clamp and the stl for the quarter turn mount. I'll have to get those from my work computer tomorrow.
to use the Lezyne cover you also need a bracket to attach the quarter turn mount to the handle bar clamp and the stl for the quarter turn mount. I'll have to get those from my work computer tomorrow.
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Andrew Wilson
Guru
heres the files for the quarter turn mount and the aluminum plate I machined to attach the mount to the handle bar clamp.
I CNC'd it but it would be simple to make with a hack saw, file and a hand drill.
I CNC'd it but it would be simple to make with a hack saw, file and a hand drill.
M.J
Well-Known Member
It seems like the wide fork, boom, wide bars, and drivetrain blow an awfully big hole through the air. The MBB format is worth it in most circumstances, but in terms of outright speed it seems like it could be a hindrance. There are fast Strava segments where I can't match the speed over 2-4 miles that I did on my Metabike highracer, even producing much more power now than I did then.
That bike was skinny and had its parts tucked up out of the wind. Many of the fastest 'bent riders that I follow are on similar bikes (CHRs or the like).
That bike was skinny and had its parts tucked up out of the wind. Many of the fastest 'bent riders that I follow are on similar bikes (CHRs or the like).
Rob Lloyd
Well-Known Member
Got my 3D printer yesterday. It's all assembled, but I still have to dial in the baseplate and calibrate it.
Going to start making test parts for the bike.
Computer cover is on the list; mirror fairings, too. Definitely disk brake caliper fairings, too. Anyone ever try a derailleur fairing?
Seems like it could have a good impact on a CB, with the derailleur being up front and all...
Going to start making test parts for the bike.
Computer cover is on the list; mirror fairings, too. Definitely disk brake caliper fairings, too. Anyone ever try a derailleur fairing?
Seems like it could have a good impact on a CB, with the derailleur being up front and all...
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Andrew Wilson
Guru
Hmm... Now thats interesting....
BTW I just did my 5k and 10 k loops on Sunday. Same temp, Same winds but this time with my little covers and a rear wheel cover. Almost the exact same times and exact same average power output. So, for me, the benefits are non existent. But still look cool.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Those look nice Rob. Can't wait to see what you come up with. Yep, every little bit helps, and even though it is only a little, the RD probably stays a bit cleaner.
I think it is something else MJ. Larry has set multiple records with the Vendetta front end. One of his records was done on a custom bike but it still had the Vendetta front triangle. I am sure there is room for improvement, but I doubt it is enough to make the bike much slower than other CHRs. Especially since it does so well against other CHRs in racing. I don't know the exact differences between your Metabike and your V20, but I can see that you have changed the seat on your V20 and have a much less reclined position. Also your arms are very high. I suspect you have compromised your CdA in your position compared to a standard V20. My position is much lower than yours (but my hips/waste and legs would be in the same position at the bottom of the seat), so my frontal area is much lower. In CdA analysis, I am getting very low CdA. I suspect I am around 0.17. I can quite comfortably "cruise" at 40kph (25mph) on a flat road with no wind (with <200W which is well under threshold). I think for an hour I might be able to do 45kph. Anyway, my point is that I don't think the MBB and associated is a significant hinderance to low CdA on the V20. I think you need to go looking elsewhere for any reduced performance.
M.J
Well-Known Member
Overall performance is much higher on the V20 and it's approaching the top speed potential of the best highracers now that I have the rear wheel covered. I still have the stock front wheel on, which I know is a major source of drag, but I'm unwilling to cover it and unable to buy a deep aero wheel, so there's that. For sure, there's lots of room for improvement in my personal setup. My clothing, shoes, and helmet are not full-on aero kit. I don't expect to be as fast as Larry just because we ride the same bike. It's not out of line, however, to say that skinny, tucked-in highracers are slipperier than a stock or lightly modified V20.
I know you guys don't believe me about the bars, but I'm almost certain that they're more aero than stock. I'm an average -height guy (5'10" -5'11" ) with long arms and legs. With the stock bars, my elbows hang out in the wind real bad and I can't move the bars far enough forward to compensate because then I bash my thighs on them. The bullhorns (cut off drops, really) that I have on are just wide enough to clear my legs, so my hands are less in the wind than with the wide stock bars, and the position tucks my elbows in and gets my forearms mostly behind my legs.
When I put them on I did several rides with no other changes and they were faster everywhere. If they weren't, I would have put the stockers back on. Modern upright TT bikes put the rider's hands much higher than old-school ones did, too. I know the shapes are different, but it illustrates that what looks fast isn't always fastest.
I know you guys don't believe me about the bars, but I'm almost certain that they're more aero than stock. I'm an average -height guy (5'10" -5'11" ) with long arms and legs. With the stock bars, my elbows hang out in the wind real bad and I can't move the bars far enough forward to compensate because then I bash my thighs on them. The bullhorns (cut off drops, really) that I have on are just wide enough to clear my legs, so my hands are less in the wind than with the wide stock bars, and the position tucks my elbows in and gets my forearms mostly behind my legs.
When I put them on I did several rides with no other changes and they were faster everywhere. If they weren't, I would have put the stockers back on. Modern upright TT bikes put the rider's hands much higher than old-school ones did, too. I know the shapes are different, but it illustrates that what looks fast isn't always fastest.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
My stock OEM bars were I think 440mm. I have pretty wide shoulders and I could see that my arms were far too wide. My frontal area must have been way too big. I switched to 420mm bull horns with the TT shifters, and got a bit faster but I was also getting into better shape so I don't have any data to prove where the extra speed came from. Then I switched to flared 390mm Nitto bars back to brifters, chopped them about 5"-6". They were still a bit too upright, so I lowered them among a couple of other things. Lowering the Nitto/Brifter system probably made it as aero as the bullhorns with the TT shifters in the upright position, but lowering the bullhorns would probably result in being the most aero. Uncomfortable, but by itself more aero.
Back to the Nittos, the flare got my elbows in pretty tight, but I have to time the shifts with my pedal stroke so I don't knee the lever in turns. I could probably fix that by rotating the top of the brifters a bit inboard, but I spend a lot more time going straight than I do turning. Like you MJ, my thighs just barely touch the bars at the top of the pedal stroke. Right now my cockpit is probably at about 85% aero as it could be, and while I am really focusing on speed right now for 150-200km, I know that compromises have to be made. When it comes time for me to clock 300-400km/day I am pretty sure I won't be in the hurt locker too much by regulating and limiting my power output.
Back to the Nittos, the flare got my elbows in pretty tight, but I have to time the shifts with my pedal stroke so I don't knee the lever in turns. I could probably fix that by rotating the top of the brifters a bit inboard, but I spend a lot more time going straight than I do turning. Like you MJ, my thighs just barely touch the bars at the top of the pedal stroke. Right now my cockpit is probably at about 85% aero as it could be, and while I am really focusing on speed right now for 150-200km, I know that compromises have to be made. When it comes time for me to clock 300-400km/day I am pretty sure I won't be in the hurt locker too much by regulating and limiting my power output.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
MJ, I have no doubt that you are more aero with your bars than the stock bars. My stock bars were ridiculously wide I think they were like 56cm or something before the flare. It was like riding a harley or something with arms wide and out in the wind. I replaced them with some 44cm flared drop bars (with about 5cm cut from them). Initially this was just because one of the paths I ride on has bollards to ride through, and I felt I was only cms from touching them so I slowed down for them. But it really improved my position for aero also and bike is MUCH narrower for going through narrow bollards. I believe you guys ride with your hands on the hoods and arms high above your legs. I ride with my hands on the drops much lower. With 44cm bars, my thumbs have about 1cm clearance from my thighs at the top of the pedal stroke and my hands are just to the side of my legs. I think I could get away with 2cm narrower bars at a pinch. My upper arms are against the sides of my torso and the bend at the elbow has the lower arms near horizontal towards the drops (I also have the curved slider to lower the bars). I have the bar positioned so that the centre part of the bars so my legs just brush the bars like you guys. I find this position comfortable and prefer it for comfort to high arms. I can't say if my position is more aero than yours, but I can say I am very aero. I believe my position is similar to Larrys preferred position and he is very aero. This position has the arms in a similar position to the hamster/tiller position but instead of the hands coming in, they go straight forward, but side view of the arms is mcuh the same.
I believe that my position on a V20 is getting CdA numbers comparabile with other optimised high racer bikes like M5s etc. I don't believe the front drivetrain is a significant aero penalty. Larry set the 100km/mile records using a stock Vendetta front end at >25mph. I believe his power is well under 200W indicating very good CdA numbers. Anyway, I was just disagreeing with your hypothisis that the MBB drivetrain is the reason you are slower than the Metabike as there are examples of this identical drivetrain being very aero. It seems if you under CdA of 0.2, you are doing pretty well on a CHR and that is certainly possible with the V20.
Are you running the Thor seat? Have you worked out how much higher your head is with this seat over stock? If your head is 6 inch higher, then you have exposed 6 inches of torso width (widest solid part of the body) to the wind. Could this be the difference between your metabike and V20?
I believe that my position on a V20 is getting CdA numbers comparabile with other optimised high racer bikes like M5s etc. I don't believe the front drivetrain is a significant aero penalty. Larry set the 100km/mile records using a stock Vendetta front end at >25mph. I believe his power is well under 200W indicating very good CdA numbers. Anyway, I was just disagreeing with your hypothisis that the MBB drivetrain is the reason you are slower than the Metabike as there are examples of this identical drivetrain being very aero. It seems if you under CdA of 0.2, you are doing pretty well on a CHR and that is certainly possible with the V20.
Are you running the Thor seat? Have you worked out how much higher your head is with this seat over stock? If your head is 6 inch higher, then you have exposed 6 inches of torso width (widest solid part of the body) to the wind. Could this be the difference between your metabike and V20?
M.J
Well-Known Member
I don't have the Thor on any more but I do have a different aftermarket seat that lays flatter and lower than the Thor did. My shoulders are out of the wind. At 30+ mph I can hear the air alternating sides going over my knees and past my ears. "Whomp whomp whomp" 
I'm certainty not saying that the V20 isn't fast. On real life roads I would say there's nothing faster. I've done many rides on mine that I wouldn't have believed I was capable of when I was on my old highracer. On 10-30 mile segments I expect to average 25-27mph and something is off if I don't, which still seems insane when I stop to think about it.
I'm just saying that at the absolute top end, a bike with such wide and cluttered front end isn't going to be as fast as a high-BB skinny highracer. I'm thinking of a bike like Marvin Tunnat rides (if you don't follow him on Strava, you should. He's a monster!)
It's really a hypothetical question since a V20 without the MBB isn't a V20.
I'm certainty not saying that the V20 isn't fast. On real life roads I would say there's nothing faster. I've done many rides on mine that I wouldn't have believed I was capable of when I was on my old highracer. On 10-30 mile segments I expect to average 25-27mph and something is off if I don't, which still seems insane when I stop to think about it.
I'm just saying that at the absolute top end, a bike with such wide and cluttered front end isn't going to be as fast as a high-BB skinny highracer. I'm thinking of a bike like Marvin Tunnat rides (if you don't follow him on Strava, you should. He's a monster!)
It's really a hypothetical question since a V20 without the MBB isn't a V20.
Fair enough... I'm not saying that the V20 is the fastest bike ever made. But I think it is totally in the same league as others at the top of its category. Surely the M5 CHR is the most direct comparison. I had a quick look at Marvin and that is indeed impressive. It also looks like his bike is highly optimised and I am not sure if it is available to the average person at reasonable prices like and M5 or V20. I don't know much about the metabike, but I would think it is not a higher level than an M5?
The M5 and V20 are bikes that anyone can buy fairly easily (except the V20 currently I think!!), and they are robust and usable in most circumstances you would use a normal DF road bike (and not faired). And they are both probably the fastest in that category. Specialist racing recumbents would be quicker and that is probably what Marvin is riding? Also, I think a specialist racing MBB like Larry's magic or Marco Rugers creations would be right up there with RWD racing recumbents. drivetrain on the back is still out in the wind on RWD recumbents.. but I am sure you could optimise the forks etc. of the V20 if aero was more important than strength/durability.
Anyway, I know little about the Metabike. I googled some photos. You say you were quicker on it than V20. That surprises me. I imagine if both were similarly optimised they would be similar.
The M5 and V20 are bikes that anyone can buy fairly easily (except the V20 currently I think!!), and they are robust and usable in most circumstances you would use a normal DF road bike (and not faired). And they are both probably the fastest in that category. Specialist racing recumbents would be quicker and that is probably what Marvin is riding? Also, I think a specialist racing MBB like Larry's magic or Marco Rugers creations would be right up there with RWD racing recumbents. drivetrain on the back is still out in the wind on RWD recumbents.. but I am sure you could optimise the forks etc. of the V20 if aero was more important than strength/durability.
Anyway, I know little about the Metabike. I googled some photos. You say you were quicker on it than V20. That surprises me. I imagine if both were similarly optimised they would be similar.
M.J
Well-Known Member
Not quicker in mixed riding, strictly in terms of top speed and being able to hold that speed for longer. Add in any sort of hills or spots where I would have to slow down and then accelerate and it's no contest, the V20 is much faster.
The original MetaBike is nothing particularly special, it's just my basis for comparison. I'm sure a CHR is faster. Marvin's bike is a Troxy, which is a low volume Euro builder along the same lines as Zokra or Velokraft.
I have three or four Strava KOMs from the MetaBike days that I'm not sure I could beat on the V20 and they're all 2.5-3 mile flat drag races. Those kind of segments aren't really my focus any more, so I'm not putting any energy into trying. Until someone takes one, of course
The original MetaBike is nothing particularly special, it's just my basis for comparison. I'm sure a CHR is faster. Marvin's bike is a Troxy, which is a low volume Euro builder along the same lines as Zokra or Velokraft.
I have three or four Strava KOMs from the MetaBike days that I'm not sure I could beat on the V20 and they're all 2.5-3 mile flat drag races. Those kind of segments aren't really my focus any more, so I'm not putting any energy into trying. Until someone takes one, of course
It would be great if you had a power meter MJ. Then you could get a realistic assessment of how efficient you are. If you can do >25mph at <200W you would be on the money for a very efficient unfaired bike. Without power it is difficult to assess efficiency. Some are fast because they put out big power inefficiently (sometimes a more upright position that is less aero allows for better power). Others are fast because they are efficient with low CdA. I came across some threads at BROL where people were discussing Larry's efficiency on the Vendetta. They were amazed he was going as fast as he does with as little power as he does. The numbers pointed towards very low CdA.... as low as anything else unfaired that anyone else could find. The indications were that the V20 was a very fast bike when correctly optimised and at least as good as anything else in the same category.
