I am sure the chinese wheel makers will continue to do rim brake wheels for some time. But the big names seem to be moving out of rim brake wheels (Roval etc.). I have many (10+??) sets of rim brake wheels... but I only have 2 sets that are tubeless compatible, and I really like tubeless tyres. At the moment one set is on my DF (Roval 50mm carbon) and one on my V20 (Yoeleo 88mm carbon). I should be fine for years if I don't have a failure. If I need something I guess I will go back to Yoeleo or something for more.
My Very First Recumbent is a V20
- Thread starter Frito Bandito
- Start date
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
I do like the Yoeleo wheels. They seem very fast and like a great deal for the price point and I might wind up getting some if I don't find a replacement in time. Just today I found a little bit older HED 9 drive wheel online that the seller claims has only 200km on it for about $600 US. It has an aluminum alloy brake track which is fine for me, so if it is still available then I will have my something better than my current 50mm drive wheel. I believe it is tubeless, and I'll find out if it is for sure if I get it. I just hope it is wide enough for at least 25mm tires.
I looked for 2nd hand wheels before going Yoeleo. In the end, the value was better in my eyes for new Yoeleos over and of the used options I found local to me (and shipping is not cheap for non local). Also, I was able to specify what I wanted with Yoeleo (rim width, hub type, spoke type etc.). They are heavier than advertised.... but it has not really made any difference. I like the fact they have no spoke holes so do not need rim tape for tubeless (save a little weight and easier). It took a while for the brakes to bed in and they were pretty noise when braking the first couple thousand kms (seemed to get much better after getting caught in a storm!!). I am pretty happy with them... but they should be accurate with weight claims. I was able to confirm with testing about a 1kph benefit over my Roval 50mm DT swiss hubbed wheels with same tyres. This was over rolling terrain with the Rovals being about 500gm lighter. I didn't notice any negative effect of the extra 500gm. I have the rear wheel covered now to make it a disk wheel. But I can't say I think it is any faster than uncovered. Need more accurate testing in a controlled environment.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Yeah, at that level any claim of faster or slower in real conditions is hard to prove when so many other minor things could be influencing the speed. I'm like you though. I don't care about the weight within reason. Acceleration may be slower, but once that weight is moving then it requires less energy to maintain speed. At least that is my justification for ignoring 100g here and there. Being able to custom order the wheels is nice though. I wouldn't mind that at all. Sadly, the rear on the earlier V20s makes using a 28mm iffy. During my search today, I saw a good deal on a 650c Hed 9 non-drive clincher wheel and thought that might be good to use that in the rear with a long-throw brake caliper. It might have flattened me out for better aero without increasing the torso angle to preserve my power output.
That is a pretty interesting idea. I may look a bit wierder than a recumbent already looks, but I think it may work! Getting fast tyres in a 650 may be the only issue I can think of.
I find 25mm tyres to work well on my V20. Its more about pressures than size I think. You can run down to 60psi in a 25 on a reasonable condition road and it is pretty comfy.
I find 25mm tyres to work well on my V20. Its more about pressures than size I think. You can run down to 60psi in a 25 on a reasonable condition road and it is pretty comfy.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
The Bike path and roads in general here are very smooth so 25mm tubeless is plenty cush enough at about 80psi. I barely fit a tubeless 28mm Pro One on my 50mm Bullet for the rear and that felt amazing at about 80psi, but I didn't try lower pressures that I am aware of. Surprisingly, 650 wheels and tires here aren't so difficult to find. Plenty of DF bikes in the 46cm and 48cm size come with 650 wheels so it's possible to find them here with some searching.
I'm not 100% on this, but I thought the ride of a tyre was pretty much all down to the pressure.... the reason for larger tyres being preferred at lower pressures was to give more rim height at lower pressures to stop the tyre completely compressing and impacting the rim. If I am right, 80psi should feel the same regardless of tyre size, but I may have that wrong. Perhaps there is element of tyre volume that makes a difference.
I have not looked, but I assumed most of the quick Conti and equivalent tyres would not be available in 650. Can you get Gp5000 tubeless tyres in 650?
I have not looked, but I assumed most of the quick Conti and equivalent tyres would not be available in 650. Can you get Gp5000 tubeless tyres in 650?
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Yes, they do make Conti GP5000 in 650 25mm and 28mm. I just found a tubed pair for about ¥7500 in a local auction which I think is about $60US. If the 28mm will fit on the 700 then there isn't much need to drop from a 700 sized tire to a 650. Maybe a tad better aero and weight savings. There really isn't much difference in 25mm and 28mm for all intents and purposes though. Hitting a pot hole at the same speed will have virtually the same result to the rim. Outside of Japan though I'd definitely want a 28mm just for that added bit even if it were just a little. Looks like the HED9 isn't available though. No reply from the seller.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Getting longer and faster. I was pushing harder into the headwinds and conserving energy on the downwinds in the hopes of a 190-200w average. Right near the end of the ride though, my speed dropped from 35.6kph to 35.1 just from a few hindrances and obstacles (holiday crowds) so I eventually just called it a day, hit the stop button on my Wahoo Bolt and tried to enjoy the slow plod home.
www.strava.com
Amateur Hour. 177w @ 35.1kph - Andrew C. (Cruzbike V20)'s 122.7 km bike ride
Should have known better than trying to ride on a holiday. Platoons of joggers running in formations blocking half the path, dogs on leashes being allowed to run buck wild, golfers not looking both ways before crossing the path, cyclists riding on the wrong side of the path, painfully polite...
www.strava.com
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
A while back my Perez Clamp bit the dust, so I had to DIY my headrest bars to make them work. It took a while, but finally got them to work. However, it was a temporary fix so I decided to see if I could get the Perez clamp to work again. With a bit of metal epoxy I was able to do get it working again. I also added 1cm more of foam padding under my shoulders. I know it won't be as aero but Oh Well. My rear tire rubbed a few holes into my Moose bag, so I got a medium sized Topeak under seat bag and connected it to the inside of the head rest between my neck and the hydration bottle. It isn't as nice as the Moose bag, but it'll work for a while.
Mathew Fy
GRU
I was worried about that, so I cut a piece of fender to Zip-Tie into that space.
Attachments
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Good idea Mathew. I put a longish bolt through the lower rim brake strut to stop the Moose pack from sliding too far back, but it slid back enough to get a small hole in it. The bolt was obviously too short but your solution seems better. I'll patch it up and get it back on soon. The sad thing is that the zipper seams are coming undone so the zipper works only about 60%.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
That is true. I've left it completely open and didn't lose anything. The rear tire flings dust in the hole in the back though so I have to get it covered well. Maybe some iron on patches or duct tape.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Over 300km on my V20 since my last post, and while none of them really stand out for distance there was a KOM and 1 ride with over 30 top tens for distances up to about 25-30km. Rainy season is here now, so for the next 5 weeks or so my mileage is going to drop off a bit unless it is a particularly dry rainy season. Feeling like I have plateaued in training recently so I should probably get some outside help.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
I have always been curious about how a V20 with a decent fit and CdA and when I am reasonably fit and recovered stacks up against a top tier triathlon bike with a fit rider going head to head, both set up with "go fast" parts, and today I found out. 1st, let me write that I did a 43km sprint up the river with a nice tailwind and Kenta-san only rode 25km. Also, we didn't plan this head to head race. I went first, got finished with my 43km sprint and got a Strava notification a bit later that I lost a KOM. Which means that Kenta finished his 24.72km ride soon after I finished my ride, and I had no idea that I even had a KOM. If I had only ridden to the 25km marker than I would have put out a lot more power, especially between the 19km-25km markers. But this isn't really about who was faster today though. It is about power in relation to speed. You'll see in the pics of our Strava data that he did the 24.72km 1 second faster than I did. But looking at the power data is where the important stuff is. My CdA was 0.198 for those who like nerdy data. I've had better CdAs, but I've also had way worse. I have no idea what Kenta-san's CdA was so I don't know if there is anything he could do to conserve power or go faster.
Me on my V20
Campagnolo Bullet 50 front
Campagnolo Bullet 80 rear with a Monokote disc.
28mm Schwalbe Pro One Tubed front (90psi)
28mm Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless rear (80psi)
SRAM Force AXS 2x12
Shimano 105 52/34t chain rings
Shimano Ultegra 11/30t cassette
Moosepack
1L hydration behind my head
Kenta-san on his Cervelo P5/6
HED front (60mm?)
HED rear (60mm?)
Continental GP5000 (tubeless?)
Shimano Ultegra crankset 2x11
Looks like an 11/25t or possibly an 11/28t cassette
Not sure if he ran 1 or 2 hydration bottles today
In case you don't want to go back and forth between the pics to compare the data, here is the low down.
I did the 24.72km in 32 minutes and 32 seconds at 45.6kph which cost me a 211w average.
Kenta-san did the exact same 24.72km course in 32 minutes and 31 seconds a short time after me, but it cost him a 286w average.
That is a HUGE difference of 75w.
Me on my V20
Campagnolo Bullet 50 front
Campagnolo Bullet 80 rear with a Monokote disc.
28mm Schwalbe Pro One Tubed front (90psi)
28mm Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless rear (80psi)
SRAM Force AXS 2x12
Shimano 105 52/34t chain rings
Shimano Ultegra 11/30t cassette
Moosepack
1L hydration behind my head
Kenta-san on his Cervelo P5/6
HED front (60mm?)
HED rear (60mm?)
Continental GP5000 (tubeless?)
Shimano Ultegra crankset 2x11
Looks like an 11/25t or possibly an 11/28t cassette
Not sure if he ran 1 or 2 hydration bottles today
In case you don't want to go back and forth between the pics to compare the data, here is the low down.
I did the 24.72km in 32 minutes and 32 seconds at 45.6kph which cost me a 211w average.
Kenta-san did the exact same 24.72km course in 32 minutes and 31 seconds a short time after me, but it cost him a 286w average.
That is a HUGE difference of 75w.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Ooooooooh. Some guy on a TT bike took 13 of my KOMs today on the same 25km stretch that Kenta-san did in my last post.
Time for me to do a hard 25km ride up the river.
Time for me to do a hard 25km ride up the river.
Nice data @Frito Bandito!!
Another data point from last year for me: https://www.strava.com/segments/3256985
This was on a 50km hilly course (>1000m elevation/100km). So not the best for a 14kg V20. KOM is a full TT rig (Latest BMC TT rig with disc rear wheel and 80-90mm front wheel). I am in second place, and my V20 was basically standard but with my 88mm wheels with GP5000-TL and under seat bottle without a rear tail box at this point. I think my current setup is a little quicker (tail box and disc covers on rear wheel). We did it 2 days apart, but I think the wind was slightly better for him (in a direction that helped more with the slower parts of the course).
Anyway, he beat me by 50 seconds. He did 39.7kph average at 248W and I did 39.3kph at 224W. I am pretty sure if I could do his extra 28W I would have beat him comfortably. A month or two later I had the tail box on and disc wheel and was able to do a little more power on a different course at around 230W average.... but that was flat course, so probably would have been lower on a hilly course where you are coasting on fast down hills. I think if I repeated the effort with the tail box and disc, I may have got very close to KOM. For reference, my CdA for that ride was 0.193. That course has lots of chip gravel ashpalt which is not great rolling resistance, but I have gotten CdAs around the 0.18 on that course witht he tail box.
But the difference in power outputs between the V20 and full TT rig is much less than you got above. Perhaps my competitor was more aero... but more likely that the hilly course turns the advantage back more towards the lighter bike. I was only about 20 seconds behind him until the last few kms where it is a hilly finish.
Another data point from last year for me: https://www.strava.com/segments/3256985
This was on a 50km hilly course (>1000m elevation/100km). So not the best for a 14kg V20. KOM is a full TT rig (Latest BMC TT rig with disc rear wheel and 80-90mm front wheel). I am in second place, and my V20 was basically standard but with my 88mm wheels with GP5000-TL and under seat bottle without a rear tail box at this point. I think my current setup is a little quicker (tail box and disc covers on rear wheel). We did it 2 days apart, but I think the wind was slightly better for him (in a direction that helped more with the slower parts of the course).
Anyway, he beat me by 50 seconds. He did 39.7kph average at 248W and I did 39.3kph at 224W. I am pretty sure if I could do his extra 28W I would have beat him comfortably. A month or two later I had the tail box on and disc wheel and was able to do a little more power on a different course at around 230W average.... but that was flat course, so probably would have been lower on a hilly course where you are coasting on fast down hills. I think if I repeated the effort with the tail box and disc, I may have got very close to KOM. For reference, my CdA for that ride was 0.193. That course has lots of chip gravel ashpalt which is not great rolling resistance, but I have gotten CdAs around the 0.18 on that course witht he tail box.
But the difference in power outputs between the V20 and full TT rig is much less than you got above. Perhaps my competitor was more aero... but more likely that the hilly course turns the advantage back more towards the lighter bike. I was only about 20 seconds behind him until the last few kms where it is a hilly finish.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
That is some interesting data Adrian. I am sure what you wrote explains the decreased power difference. Also, your guy might have a better position requiring less power. The wind being a bit better for him also actually kind of matches my case. I saw that the wind was predicted to be 3-4kph faster an hour or so later on that day. I have heard about chip gravel, maybe they call it chip seal in the US, and that it sucks for bike tires. I gotta get my front wheel sorted so I can get that headache out of the way, and get something better than the single 1L bottle. 80mm-100mm deep would be perfect and those two should get me down to a 0.190 or so, something I could live with. I bet you can get that KOM though. Last night the wind forecast here had me hoping to give it a go today, but this morning the forecast changed and I knew it wasn't going to be possible, so I went to practice golf for this Friday's round. There will be another day for an attempt soon, and even though other guys are watching the forecast too I am going to give it the beans so they are going to have to up their game for it haha.
Yeah, it is the chip seal road you mention in the US. Not smooth and constant loud rumble from the tyres. It effects the TT bike equally, but I more mentioned it as I don't change any settings on the Crr in the CdA calculation, but the Crr is worse, so I think that causes the CdA to read higher than actual. On smooth roads I often get down to a CdA around 0.16.
I think I could have gotten the KOM back late last year when my fitness was stronger, but not now. This course is a tough course mentally. A constant interval session as you are going up and down hills but rarely flat for more than a few hundred metres. And the worst is at the end. I should look up the normalised power for that run. It would probably have been much higher than the 50km flat course I did at 230W average.
I think I could have gotten the KOM back late last year when my fitness was stronger, but not now. This course is a tough course mentally. A constant interval session as you are going up and down hills but rarely flat for more than a few hundred metres. And the worst is at the end. I should look up the normalised power for that run. It would probably have been much higher than the 50km flat course I did at 230W average.
