reading the tea leaves

[John Tolhurst]

'Recumbents that climb fast'

'Recumbents that climb fast' - that is good.

It is a consequence of something else. This benefit comes from the front triangle structure, and the fact that the body grabs onto this triangle with both hands and feet. Now, that translates into hill climbing, acceleration obviously, but it also means quite simply that you get more from each pedal stroke than on any other bent. Its is more efficient. Can that deeper concept be couched as a USP? I am unsure. Cruzbike 'more efficient that any other recumbent' Does that work?

 

[Jerrye]

John, I believe

To better and more succinctly state your view: "Cruzbike: The Most Efficient Recumbent" says what you want to say.

 

[super slim]

I thank John for being open

I thank John for being open enough, and self confident enough, to ask this question.
The inputs so far have been very positive, informative, varied, and shows the vast recumbent experience out there in this Forum.

Don't drop the Quest, as it is hydroformed, and has a good 80 mm rear suspension that is lighter (and pogo free) than a
MTB rear suspension!
Yes change the colour to a more vibrant orange colour, but the existing black and orange emphasizes its good lines.

Have a Quest frame only option, so builders can work off a good base, with the near fully assembled unit available.

Improve the graphics so same theme for ALL Cruzbikes.
Keep the Cruzbike name for all bikes/kits.

Bring back a 45 degree seat for the Silvio (Bring back the V1.5 option),
OR have a Carbon Fibre seat that is adjustable from 27 to 45 degrees, AND Length, like the Scorpion FX trike seat. See attached photo.

What is the weight of the existing Fiberglas/carbon Silvio seat?

Increase the drive fork width to 135 mm, so disc brake hubs, AND 11, 12? speed cassettes can fit correctly.

Create a table to compare all the bikes!
What is the Vendetta frame weight compared to the Silvio V2.1?

Lighten the Vendetta front triangle even more, but hopefully without using Carbon fibre.

Improve the seat and seat cushions.

Super Slim

 

[John Tolhurst]

waste not want not

perhaps that says efficiency too
the challenge is to focus on the benefit, and that is where the efficiency concept has a hard time translating

 

[Ian Smith]

Conversion


John, I agree that the kit does make things look shabby initially. If that goes then there will need to be something to take it's place, maybe a Y2K frame, fork and front kit would do it. It's a good entry into the marque and would take some butchering issues away from the name. The whole thing should be well below $1000 to make this change work.

Like Specialised has S-WORKS as their racing marque, maybe something like CBR (Cruzbike Racing) with the models of S1.5, S2.0 and Vendetta. My understanding is that the Silvio is the comfier road bike and the Vendetta is the time trial bike. Has this changed recently? There is no way that either will be racing this side of the next blue moon due to the monopoly stranglehold that the UCI has on races and even charity events so what is the real focus of the two models? Or does the vendetta slip to the history books and the Silvio (or a newer and catcher name:- i.e. Crusader) get certain upgrade options that can make it into a lighter, streamlined unsprung option with a variable seat angle? Maybe the one model can cover a lot of ground, including aero bars, boom, stays, forks, farings etc as optional extras/bling/carbon/colours.

The trick for you is to make as many components similar without compromising the 'difference' between the models and allowing component swaps. This then reduces tooling costs etc.

This thread will give you lots of feedback and some interesting points to ponder. The seat appears to be a big issue and will require more thought and more discussion with other seat people. You will probably come up with something that works and solves most of the issues with the current arrangements.

If you want to sell more units then you might have to re-think your marketing strategy. In the end, the final product is pretty good and with some tweaks can be made exceptional. People just don't know about it and bike shops are probably scared of having something different in their line up. The bike is ahead of anything else on the market. Maybe your marketing has to be ahead of anything else on the market and leverage off some of the thoughts used in viral marketing or social marketing.

We watch with interest.

 

[igolfat8]

"The trick for you is to make

"The trick for you is to make as many components similar without compromising the 'difference' between the models and allowing component swaps. This then reduces tooling costs etc. "

Iaan hit the proverbial nail on the head. I am a ME with a global Fortune 100 company. We manufacture 250+ different SKUs but what the consumer doesn't realize is that the internal components are nearly identical on every SKU. This reduces tooling costs and commonizes components in the value stream map. Consumers are paying for external bells and whistles that has little effect on the way the basic machine operates. Purchase a base model or the top of the line and they both do the same function, with most of the same components.

 

[BentBierz]

What Does Cruzbike mean

What is the origin or the meaning of Cruzbike? Is Cruz a play on cruise? There are a few definitions of cruise but here is one of the more consistent:

- To go or move along, especially in an unhurried or unconcerned fashion.

Admittedly you have this as well:

- To travel at a constant speed or at a speed providing maximum operating efficiency for a sustained period.

I believe most people think of cruising though as the first definition i.e. A leisure pursuit requiring minimum effort.

You could amp up the term cruising by saying something like "We Put the Speed Back Into Cruz'ing!" or "Cruz'ing at Record Breaking Speed!"

Of course, if Cruzbike means something entirely different, disregard all of the above.

 

[BentBierz]

Any change to the graphics

Any change to the graphics for Cruzbike might also suggest speed...

 

[bladderhead]

The seat in Super slim's

The seat in Super slim's pictures looks like the one on my Grasshopper. Undoing the screws allows the seat to telescope, allowing for back length. The screws screw into a thing which attaches to the frame with a quick-release, allowing adjustment up and down, to adjust seat angle.

 

[Shahmatt]

It does make sense to me that

It does make sense to me that the kit be dropped if the Cruzbike image is to be polished up and made streamlined. My thoughts below.

The kit serves four purposes. Charles has mentioned two. I've added another two below.

1. Provide a means by which the FWD MBB concept can be introduced at low cost to those familiar with conventional recumbents
2. Provide a means by which buyers can own a recumbent within a small budget
3. Provide a means by which recumbent types not easily available in the market can be created - e.g. folding recumbents
4. Provide a means by which cyclists can reuse and give new life to old bikes just lying around in their homes. Cruzbike helps to save the world by encouraging recycling.

On item 4: Since the Cruzbike power transfer is confined to that triangle, the quality and flex of said old frame is not overly important to bike performance. The interesting effect would be that most conversions will perform much the same in terms of power efficiency, and may even match complete Cruzbikes. But I digress.

If the kit is not getting enough sales then markets 1, 2 and 4 are no longer strong and worthwhile servicing. It is only market 3 then that is possibly relevant. If such is the case then I would suggest that the price of the kit be raised to cover the cost of dealing with kit troubleshooting. I belong to market 3 but I guess there aren't very many of us around. But market 3 is where some interesting stuff can happen.

If sales are however still decent and it is rather the Cruzbike brand that presents a problem then I suggest that the kit be re-introduced under another brand name (I suggest BENTIFY), manufactured by the Cruzbike company but supported by this community. Buyers can be explicitly told that the kit is unsupported by the Cruzbike company post sales.

I think the kit is a product that ONLY the Cruzbike company can offer - being the company that has now pioneered and commercialized the FWD MBB concept. What other company can do the same? For this reason I am sorry to see it go.

 

[ratz]

Oh boy tag lines; there's a

Oh boy tag lines; there's a 100k project to get 8 words in the correct order.

Here are a couple for free.

Cruzbike - The Intersection of Recumbency and Efficiency.
Cruzbike - Efficiently reclined
Cruzbike - Recumbently Efficient
Cruzbike - Efficiently Recumbent
Cruzbike - Recumbent & Efficient is possible
Cruzbike - We'll wait for you at the top

For the Vendetta specific

Vendetta - The only thing relaxed on this race bike is the rider.

 

[Romagjack]

Just read this thread from

Just read this thread from start to finish and already forgot John's question about V and S pricing. Many great points here. I never would have started Cruzbiking without the kit that allowed me to take my beloved yellow Klein dual suspension mountain bike to a whole new use and keep me cycling even with a bad back. Evolving to the tangerine (love the color) Quest 2 has given me hundreds of hours of great enjoyment. Yes, like bladderhead, BentBierz and others, I long for an IGH adaptable fork with an adjustable comfort seat with well designed cabling for disc brakes. I suspect that the many passionate posts on this thread might bring about these and other changes to the S3 and I will be one of the first to order.
BMW markets their cars as Luxury, Sport and M-Class (performance) variations based on the same model. Perhaps that strategy could work for Cruzbike.

 

[Kungfuguy]

Bent riders are a fringe

Bent riders are a fringe group. Who is cruzbike trying to appeal to? The fringe or the mainstream. I think it should be the mainstream. Even though cruzbikes are fast and climbers, I think it should be de-emphasized in its marketing. The biggest selling point of all bents has been comfort. Comfort has to appeal to the mainstream. Second selling point has to be competitive pricing. The mainstream are going to balk at current pricing. It needs to be cheaper. I know this goes against the general consensus about pricing is OK on this thread.

Without repeating much of the opinions above, cruzbike should reduce the number of models, reuse Silvio parts and components across the models. The kit, y2k frame and softrider should go. With fewer unique frame/parts and the reuse of Silvio parts, it hopefully bring costs down.

 

[Eric Winn]

What is the mainstream?
Where

What is the mainstream?

Where I do most of my riding the highest number of bike riders I typically see are road bikes most of which are trying to go fast.

From Nanda Holz's increased emphasis on recumbent trikes and based on activity on BentRider and comments from Bryan, mainstream could be recumbent trikes.

Digression - a Cruzbike FWD/MBB leaning trike like that concept Arnold of Raptobike created looks like it would be fun and the leaning capability may make it a lot faster than a typical recumbent trike.

Not being snarky. Just curious what you think "mainstream" means.

-Eric

 

[trplay]

The Silvio is a

The Silvio is a performance road bike and the vendetta is a TT bike. If one loses sight of this I think the interest base falls off sharply. Yes this board is weighted more towards a slightly different use which is OK. Chopping and tinkering is fun and part of the recumbenteers DNA but you race on Sunday and sell on Monday. This is exactly what Maria has done and thanks to some well timed excellent build threads by Ivan and Eric Cruzbike is on a roll.

 

[Kungfuguy]

What is the mainstream?  Road

What is the mainstream? Road bikers are too invested in their bikes to make the switch to bents. Cruzbike shouldn't spend its energies chasing this group. Not long ago, MTBs outsold road bikes as the mainstream bike. Nearly all these mtb are never ridden on a hill. This is the mainstream I'm talking about. Incidentally, most of these riders choose the mtb over the roadster because of comfort. Hence, comfort is still the leading marketing point.

Winning races, hydro forming, fwd, mbb, specs, etc......are all marketing points that belong in the fine print. It's like shopping for a pc. Technical points are all quantifiable, but not that useful to the average user. Unless you're buildling your own pc/bike. Not to sound snarky, but most are not going to ask how wide the front fork is or who won RAAM. But how is this cruzbike useful to me?

Questions/Marketing points for the mainstream:
Is it comfortable?
Is it light?
Is it expensive?
Is it hard to ride?
Can it climb?
Is it fast?

It sounds like I'm asking for the moon. A fast cheap bent. It appears impossible, but not improbable. Trident trikes has a 2 wheel folding bent based off of their trikes. It costs $1249. I didn't buy it because a stick bike doesn't appeal to me.

 

[trplay]

Kungfuguy, they already make

Kungfuguy, they already make the bike you describe -- the softrider-- and if you want to upgrade go with the Quest.

 

[super slim]

Ratz
Did your wife help you

Ratz
Did your wife help you with those GREAT One Liners

Super Slim

 

[super slim]

Instead of the $400 kit,

Instead of the $400 kit, would the softrider frame that can take disc brakes or rim brakes and forks at $800???? be a better fit below the $1200 Softrider, so all the running gear off a MTB can go onto it??

Super Slim

 

[richa]

Recumbents that climb fast...


"Recumbents that climb fast" sounds great, but I question if that would include the Softrider and Quest. Maybe faster than other recumbents, but not faster than a DF. I'm pretty sure I can climb faster on my DF (A mountain bike with high pressure tires) then I can on the Quest, and it's clear a lot of energy is being used to bend and twist the handlebars.

The Quest has other attributes that make it a great bike (comfort mainly), and I certainly enjoy riding it, but it appears to be one evolutionary step away from achieving the "climb fast" moniker. If a Silvio/Vendetta type handlebar-type attachment could be fitted in place of the bars-on-a-tall-stick arrangement, then I think it too would warrant the climb fast label.

That said, I'm sold on the general Cruzbike platform, and if I ever bought a high-performance road bike it would certainly be a Silvio.

Rich

P.S. I can't really climb fast on any bike, so "faster" is clearly relative.