reading the tea leaves

[Cruzbike-in-Germany]

Best Agers

Hi,

a few years ago, I here proposed idealistically that we should introduce the young (age 5 through 15) to recumbent riding.
My idea: if everybody would learn to ride a recumbent instead of an upright bike as a first bike, the market would completely change.
Well, now I think this was and is too big a target for even the whole recumbent community.
What is realistic - looking at the next 25 years?
Many people that grew up in the bike boom years (~1980-2000, the Shimano Age (?)) are now starting to get older ("Best Agers") and look for an non-hurting alternative for touring - to put it short, that is my story (I am 40 years now): I wanted the freedom of a leisure bike ride for as long as possible, but I just could not bear the "seat pain" on my "normal bike" anymore, and was ready to pay more for it.
Therefore my ideas / proposals:
1) Recumbents should solve the long-distance comfort issue of the upright bike, as they cannot compete as a "cheap / jump on jump off/ short distance / grandma grocery machines", so I agree to the many voices before, stating: seat quality is of importance
2) Cruzbike must not tell the customer "you have a problem", but get the message through to the middle class (the rich are too absorbed playing golf etc., the poor cannot afford recumbents) that "we offer the coolest of stuff" that solve all kinds of problems, like the following
3) Bike riders are vulnerable participants of traffic. Therefore in the bike ads / magazines they are shown as strong and powerful, hardened by riding the right bike. So the Cruzbike message should be similar, be something like that: "Vendetta empowers you to fully unleash your energy, be it 30 minutes or 48 hours". My proposal: replace the Youtube spot (What-What) by something reminding of the superiority-selling bike ads featuring good-looking people between 30 and 40 on fancy bikes - this appeals to the Best Agers. The Cruzbike race models are cool and ground breaking, and should be sold as such.
4) The touring models, in exchange, are not mentioned in ads, but refer in their descriptions to those "top of the line" models : "...The Sofrider features the ground-breaking MBB of the record-winning Cruzbike Vendetta...". And they should be presented more separated from the race models.
5) Somebody already mentioned Apple. I think the secret slogan of these guys is "it works and it makes you look good, buy it". Buying the Sofrider V3 as a demo model last year I had a few feelings of this kind. It came within 5 days to Germany (!), it looks stunningly good for a touring model, rides very well with crisp shifting and brakes and slick tires, and building it up was not a hassle. I would say: the more expensive a model is, the more of these "positive vibrations" it should offer from the start.

Greetings from Germany

Ernest

 

[super slim]

Vendetta - The only thing

Vendetta - The only thing relaxed on this race bike is the rider.

I think Cruzbike should get clear stickers of this to give to every Vendetta rider to put on their bikes!

Super Slim

 

[chrisblessing]

Kungfuguy

The questions/marketing points Kungfuguy cites are exactly the questions I get asked when I'm out on my conversion. (Malaysians don't flinch when I say that I've got $1500 in my kit [an HP Veloteknik goes for $4K]).

In no way am I involved in any kind of marketing, but it seems to me that the questions he posits are the questions mainstream buyers ask, and it would seem that they should drive marketing. I know that when I began my quest for a folding recumbent, those were the questions that guided my search. To some questions, as a recumbent rider, I already had answers. Only after I decided on the conversion kit (RIP) did I start considering the more arcane issues such as MBB, gear ratios/inches, etc.

One thing Cruzbike has going is differentiation among products, from folding to racing, a claim that can't be made by many companies. I guess if I were in the business of marketing Cruzbike products it would be by focusing on the intended use or potential audience of each product and refining the distinctions. The finer print would feature the common features of each, while the finest print would highlight the specifics of each. If each product (4) were treated as a category, perhaps each category could offer a range of components, allowing for flexibility in pricing.

Personally, I'd like to see a 5th category, "experimental", where things like conversion kits, forks, extra stuff laying around, etc, could be available, to satisfy the tinkerers. This wouldn't be a featured category, acting more like the old parts bin at the local LBS.

Apparently recumbents only represent a tiny slice of the US market for bicycles at .3%. The tricky business here in making sure that when one researches "recumbent" the Cruzbike brand is at the top of the search returns as a recumbent bike, while at the same time distinguishing it from its competitors, while at the same time not appearing to be yet an altogether distinct breed of vehicle.

 

[billyk]

how about we all say why WE EACH bought our Cruzbikes?

Maybe instead of all this theorizing, we could get some actual data by each saying in a few words what attracted us to our Cruzbikes, what was it that made us put down our hard-earned money for these bikes?

OK, for me:

I'm a longterm recumbent rider, most (90% plus) of my riding is a daily year-round commute (6 miles each way). I like innovation in bicycles, and was intrigued by the MBB design. Some people spend their extra money in bars, I like to give mine to bicycle designers. I also wanted disk brakes and full suspension. And I looked forward to the challenge of the learning curve, of having a bike that no one could just get on and ride. But the essential word I saw on the web page was "commuter" (on the Quest page). It looked like a solid, beautiful, thoughtfully-designed machine that would help make my daily ride fun. And it has completely lived up to expectations.

That's why I put down my $2000, which is no small change to me.

Note that "racing" never entered my mind. If the lineup was pushed as too "racey" I probably would've been turned off.

BK

 

[Ian Smith]

Initial introduction


Mine was that I wanted a recumbent (more said my bum needed a recumbent). I looked for an option that was in my price category and I didn't want to spend a whole wad of cash to prove the concept. Hence the conversion kit is what I got. I've tinkered and played a bit. I've made my bike into a child carrier, bag carrier and a makeshift ute (bakkie if you're South African or a El Camino if you're American). I'm in the process of saving up for a Greenspeed Magnum for my wife and then something from the full Cruzbike stable after that, maybe a S2.x or S3.x from the CB Racing stable.

 

[mgraham]

My 2 cents

I am a commuter with aspirations to bicycle touring. I became interested in recumbents as a means of cycling long distances without injuring myself (carpal tunnel, "seat" issues, etc), but was turned off by the usual 'bents complicated mechanisms (which I have no chance of addressing myself) and very high prices (public school teacher).

Then a few years ago, I stumbled across the cruzbike concept. Not only did they have claim to have solved the complex drive train problem, but they were offering introductory models at prices competitive with competent road and entry-level touring bicycles! It took two years of wheedling the Mrs., and now I'm the proud owner of a Y2K conversion. I would have bought the Sofrider, but found a deal at the last minute (NC teachers squeeze every penny).

If you are going to ditch the conversion kit, then you need to offer the Sofrider frame at a reduced price from the whole bike. I'd probably also recommend marketing both a 26" and 700c frame. Since it already takes standard components people will be able to enter the market with less risk. No one buying these machines isn't already a cyclist of some dedication and probably has wheels, shifters, bars, etc that they already love.

To echo earlier sentiments the adjustable seats and boom is key. These things touch so much of your body that being able to adjust it over a wide range and in small increments make a huge difference in comfort (and therefore efficiency... seems a lot of your math leaves out the increased efficiency of a comfortable rider. Have you all forgotten what riding a wedgie is like?). Super fit TT riders can mold their flexible frames into whatever, but the majority of folks eyeing your bikes aren't that person.

I would also like to make another pitch for research into making these machines more commuter/tourer friendly, but John has made his position on that clear already.

 

[Drew]

Where art thou Seth?

This has been a great thread with lots of interesting idea. I was hoping Silvio owner and marketing guru Seth Godin would have joined the discussion by now. Perhaps he is on the road at one of his many speaking engagements on this very subject.

http://www.sethgodin.com/sg/bio.asp

 

[trplay]

Confused?

It has been mentioned and implied a lot in this thread that the target group for the Vendetta and Silvio should not be the performance oriented riders (Roadies). The question then becomes why will the non-performance rider choose TT and performance road bikes over the much better choices that are available to them?

 

[Eric Winn]

Henry, I think most of that

Henry, I think most of that is folks with a Sofrider budget but a SIlvio or Vendetta appetite - no disrespect intended. I originally started looking with the Sofrider pricing in mind but was drawn to the thought of ultracycling and speed, hence the Silvio but then switched to the Vendetta. Once I looked around the market to see how the Silvio and Vendetta pricing compared to other recumbents with similar quality and potential I realized if I wanted a Silvio or Vendetta I would have to buy one at the going rate - else build a DIY Vendetta like Mika did on BentRider.

-Eric

 

[trplay]

Yes but you are performance

Yes but you are performance oriented and choose the bike to suit the style. If you were after comfort, commute, touring the Quest would have been a much better choice. What confuses me is the concept of buying a road bike and immediately chopping the seat, adding frames, widening tires when the Quest would much better suit the bill for the ride style. Sure there is nothing wrong with doing this. It is fun and wacky but implying its done because of a design flaw in the bike is the confusing part.

 

[Jeremy S]

Eric, I would have said it

Eric, I would have said it the other way around. People with a Silvio-size budget that are looking for something like a Quest will likely opt for the more expensive, prettier, lighter bike that takes better components.

 

[KiwiGuy]

My hat is off to Jim and John

It's not easy to drop part of your heritage from your product line, so my hat is off to both Jim and John for dropping the Cruzbike kit.

It is exactly the right thing to do, not only for the reasons that were outlined by Jim and John (falling sales but ongoing support), but also because the availability of the kit damages the brand position being carved out by the Silvio and the Vendetta.

The dropping of the kit was the next logical step in focusing the brand. It takes the product range down from five products to four. Smart move. Some may disagree (I'm looking at you Charles

), so let me explain why it's such a smart move.

Steve Jobs has been widely quoted as saying that he was most proud of the things that he said 'no' to, rather than the things he said 'yes' to. What many people don't realise is that when he was brought back into Apple in the mid to late 1990s (while it was still a computer company and heading into bankruptcy) he slashed the product range down to four products - home/consumer laptop, home/consumer desktop, business laptop and business desktop. That's it. A well-known, publicly listed company selling internationally was turned around by slashing the product range down to four products. It was only when profitabilty was growing again that he then turned the company into a consumer electronics company.

Although Porsche has now become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world, back in the early 1990s they weren't doing so well. When Wendelin Wiedeking became CEO he dropped both the 928 (which had been planned to take over from the 911) and the 968 (which had just replaced the 924) from the product line and focused the range purely on the 911. A well-known, publicly listed company selling internationally was turned around by slashing the product range down to one model range.

The WD-40 company has become an (almost) household name and a highly profitable international business by focusing on only one product.

So all this begs the question. What's the ideal number of models for an almost unknown bike company with no full-time employees, virtually no promotional activity and which out-sources all manufacturing and supply? Well, it's definitely not five products (which is why my hat is off to Jim and John). I'm also pretty much sure that it not even four products.

Of course, there is no formula for these things. But I've discovered that in branding, as in much of life, the advise from my old mime teacher holds true - "Less is more".

Kind regards...

 

[ReklinedRider]

Would this be practical?

It seems lots of people still love the Silvio 1.5 as a decently fast road and touring bike that truly does 'climb real good'.
But, it's impractical for Cruzbike to revive it as a standard offering. So, maybe take orders for it until there are enough to warrant a production run--require a percentage down, say 50%, or whatever CB needs to be comfortable-- then when enough folks have been willing to plunk a chunk down, make that many and maybe a few extra, then close it down til next time. Maybe even hydroform the frame, how cool would that be!
But I don't run a manufacturing business so I have no idea if that's even remotely practical.

Kline

 

[Rampa]

Vendequest

A new "low" end idea.

I have been watching Cruzbikes develop for years now, and have yet to take the plunge.

What if the rigid frame idea and the geometry of the quest were used together? The quest because of it's adjustable seat, 135mm "normal" dropouts, and disk brakes. The rigid frame for efficiency. Ability to run 2 inch Big Apples for 26 inch wheels, or 32mm for 700c wheels.

 

[KiwiGuy]

Are Cruzbikes 'more efficient recumbents'?

I've been pondering John's question about whether Cruzbike could use the positioning of 'more efficient recumbents'. Let's explore that.

Let's take it as a given that John's patented MBB design is highly efficient. I'm no engineer but I imagine that can be measured in a couple of ways - by measuring bottom bracket deflection and by measuring the power differential between the pedals (Vector) or bottom bracket (SRM) and the hub (Powertap).

But that is all technical. From a marketing perspective the question to ask is what is the unique selling proposition that provides a overt customer benefit?

Well more efficient means more power makes it's way to the road, which means you go faster. But, we also know that aero trumps power. So a less efficient recumbent with a seat recline of 12 degrees is going to be faster on flat land, rolling country and downhill than a Vendetta at 20 degrees. So where is a Cruzbike going to be faster if it is more efficient? Uphill of course.

And we know that. The buzz about Cruzbike that attracted me to the brand is that Cruzbikes climb better than other recumbents. In fact some people claim they climb faster on a Cruzbike than they can on a df. And if there is any word that gets people in the recumbent community frothing at the mouth it is the word 'climbing'. Any thread on BROL that mentions climbing in the subject always draws a huge number of responses; because as we know, most recumbents climb poorly.

The positioning for Cruzbike of 'more efficient recumbents' is meaningless because it doesn't provide an overt customer benefit. The positioning for Cruzbike of 'recumbents that climb fast' is both unique and an overt customer benefit.

This is no problem if Cruzbike focuses producing high-performance models (like the Silvio and the Vendetta). It is a problem if they want the Cruzbike brand to encompass high-performance and utility bikes. Firstly because the positioning of 'recumbents that climb fast' is not believable for a range of heavier, sturdier bikes. Secondly because riders of utility bikes, like commuters, are not that concerned with climbing fast. It's not a compelling benefit to them. They are more interested in ease of use around town, load carrying, sturdiness and ability to operate comfortably in all weathers. Which means that slightly higher efficiency is close to meaningless for them.

This dilemma highlights the problem of trying to make your brand mean a number of things, or mean different things to different people. You struggle with the message, because what is an overt benefit to one group of customers is not relevant to another group.

Of course none of this really matters if Cruzbike is a hobby, which it may well be. After all both John and Jim have solid professional careers doing other stuff. I strongly suspect they do what they do with Cruzbike because they want to make a difference in the world - which is an ambition for which I have huge empathy. They can produce high performance bikes, utility bikes, fun youth orientated cruisers and cruzbike tricycles for the under 5 yrs Christmas market. As long as they are having fun and don't lose too much money, all will be good.

But if Cruzbike is a business, then commercial realities come into play. And one commercial reality is that those businesses that are focused on delivering a unique, overt customer benefit are more successful than those that don't. In order to do so you have to figure out which customer group you will serve and those you won't; you have to focus. In short, you have to make tough choices.

I'd argue that John's MBB patent does deliver a recumbent platform that is more efficient. But I'd further argue that the only customer group for whom that delivers an overt benefit that they really care about are those recreational, event and race cyclists who want a high-performance recumbent.

Kind regards...

 

[Eric Winn]

Cruzbike Quest Climbs Fast Too

I haven't ridden any other type of recumbent than a Cruzbike so I can't comment about how fast these things are compared to other recumbents but I can say that BOTH the Quest and the Vendetta climb fast.

Here is a little hill that is along one of my normal routes that I have data for both bikes. Personally I think the Quest can be pretty fast both on the flats and the hills. I will admit that you do have to work harder on the Quest, but I still think it is very capable of going fast. This is a little 0.2 mile (0.32 km) hill that goes from about a 1% grade at the bottom to about a 6% grade (maybe more) at the top. On the Quest, I was only 4 seconds slower than on my Vendetta. This a really short but pretty steep little sucker and even though you can get a bit of a run at it at the bottom, it is still steep enough to really pull your speed down from about halfway up to the top. I hit this hill about mile 13 of a 22 mile ride.

BTW, this was about 2 weeks after I built my Vendetta, or the 15th time I rode the bike with an accumulated 178 miles on it at this point. The Quest was the 24th ride and an accumulated total of around 289 miles on it.

The best time RWGPS has for this segment is by a DF rider in 28 seconds.

-Eric

 

[John Tolhurst]

I'm taking the question of

I'm taking the question of the non-performance bikes over to a new thread: http://cruzbike.com/reading-tea-leaves-ii

 

[Ivan]

I assume this thread is still

I assume this thread is still for the performance bikes. I am a roadie and recumbents always intrigued me due to smart ergonomics but Silvio and Vendetta were the first that I seriously researched and considered buying. While roadies are very invested in their bikes, we are also known to change buy/sell and love trying out new tech. So I got a Silvio 2 because I could go faster, in greater comfort, with less pain, and therefore further. I not only wanted a performance bike, I wanted a bike that would not pummel my body as I move through my late thirties.

I later discovered that I could also carry luggage, and go slow and relaxed in a style that doesn't suit my DF road bike. Being able to use full road components is a big deal on Silvio and Vendetta, and I think a big selling point for DF roadie crowd to consider. When roadies see my Silvio 2, most say "that looks really comfortable, is it difficult to ride?" The more skilled ones observe the aero and say "that must be fast". Those who have seen bents before comment "you're not that low as others in traffic." These are all good points for roadies to consider.

A roadie would buy a Silvio or Vendetta. The price tag is not a deterrent for a committed roadie as many spend a lot more on current bikes. The deterrent is the learning curve and not being able to test ride one.

 

[ratz]

You know..... you want to

While riding I am amazed at how the Silivo flat out wants to run. A motivated rider can make any bike fly. The Silvio is the first bike I've ridden that whispers in my ear: "just go, you know..... you want to"


Vendetta

For years you have been fibbing to your buddies about your epic ride performance last week.
Discover the truth that is Vendetta_{(leave the fibbers in the dust)}

Vendetta is; never having to explain the reason behind your average speed.


Silvio

Fast in the wind, fast on the climb, fast on the rough stuff; easy on you.
This bike just wants to go.... Do you?

 

[Nanda Holz]

Quest could be the best tourer or Silvio 3 ways

I would dump the dual drive, add the curved boom from the Silvio but make it attach behind the bb, so any design bb and crank set could be used. Make the fork accept 700x32 w/fenders, or 26x1.75 w/fenders, and redesign the 451 with the same suggested behind the bb TFT boom, use real 20" 406mm wheels with 2" Big apples, chop the fork to fit the 20x2" with fenders, and shorten the rear swing arm accordingly. Make it a true 20" touring bent, not a bastard child 26" frame with a heal bumping chainstay and wheel size no one has ever heard of. Again, adapting a Novosport hardshell, so a Cruzbike owner would only have to buy a seat...once...and could take it with them when they get a Silvio/Vendetta fset less seat +brackets. Another option would be to take the new hydro formed wonder frame and add the Quest rear swing arm, and made the upper steering boom accept CB road bars or MTB compatible shifter bars.

The more I think about it the Silvio could simply be a single frame platform that is configurable and offered in 3 flavors, Tour "ST"/Sport "SS"/Race "SR". The Tour with Quest active rear swing arm and 135mm 700x32 w/fender spacing for Rohloff's etc., the Sport as is today (except seat if course!), and Race with just a rigid for and bolt on rigid rear using the upper Ti spring mounting position.