Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[RojoRacing]

While trying my hand at the winter TT challenge on here and failing miserably to meet my expectations I started to doubt If I'm truly able to match my DF performance on the V20 like I've claimed. It really hurts the confidence to fail to hold last weeks power only 40% into the TT effort when fatigue shouldn't be an issue. So 2 weeks ago I did a 45 mile ride out to ride the 60 mile loop with the fast peeps in Irvine and then another 45 miles back home. That ride was also a bit of a failure due to tiny bladder issues, missing the start and burning myself out before I had the chance to test myself against the group. Today I did the same 153 mile ride but this time I left 10 mins earlier and solved the bladder issues. I was able to properly challenge the fast guys this time but again like in my earlier TT effort on zwift my legs would hit the wall when the guys started getting out of the saddles and the road kicked up. To be fair by that point there was only 4-5 guys dropping me and we had already dropped the other 30 rides before that point. I know these guys are faster then me especially climbing even on my DF bike and I know I can't surge as hard on the V20 but I somehow felt a bit disappointed with my efforts today, until I uploaded my ride to strava and saw the data.

Two weeks ago I forgot to move the vector pedals over to the V20 but I remembered this week so these are values from the same power meter as I run on the DF bike. I'll post the link to the ride on strava but I just realized other people can't see my % of best effort for each segment even if they open the link because they aren't me so I'm going to post a screen shot of what I see. The first 2 segments are part of that first climb highlighted on the elevation profile in dark grey and they are both 100% on the purple bar, ignore the HR numbers my arm band was acting up today. The 3rd segment is the second climb highlighted in dark grey and it's also a 100% effort. For those who don't know the purple bars is for those who use a power meter and it shows the % of your best effort over that amount of time, not distance, so it's not segment specific. These are all highly contested segments during this ride so everyone treats the peak of these climbs as finish lines before the next regroup point. According to this I improved my best power output over 5:30, 4:00 and 8:30 min efforts, that means better power over what I've managed on the DF bike in the last 6 weeks. If I'm besting my power over the DF bike then I have nothing to complain about and I just need to focus on closing the ability gap between myself and these other riders.

It should also be mentioned that these PR's came in the middle of a 150 mile ride and the previous PR's were set during previous 60 mile saturday rides or short 1 hour zwift races on the DF bike.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2202668991/overview

 

[RojoRacing]

Notice the climbs are 4-5% and the average speed is about 15 mph. I was doing my best to draft the other 4 riders but 15 mph seems to be the tipping point where I loose my aero advantage the my extra weight starts to handicap me.

 

[Barefoot Biker]

I keep riding both DF and V20. For me, the muscles seem the same. If I get more fit on one, it translates immediately to the other which is great because the DF is so @!#?@! uncomfortable! I focused more on the V20 before Sebring and more on the DF before this race: https://www.strava.com/activities/2202012406 (which btw was the hardest possible way to put a cruzbike shirt on the podium - they made me race a UCI bike!).

Still, I make more power on the DF than on the V20. When I sprint, I get somewhere around 1200 on the DF and somewhere around 1100 on the V20. It's close, but always slightly lower. That also seems to be about the point that the V20 front wheel will spin so, it's kind of pointless to push more anyway. I try to focus more on extending how long I sprint on the V20. My time trial power is also slightly lower on the V20. Here are recent results on the V20: https://www.strava.com/activities/1918728963/segments/48394221989 and here they are on the DF (in aero bars): https://www.strava.com/activities/1996713256/segments/50315105700. This says I was able to make 250 watts for 28.0 mph on the V20 and I was able to make 271 watts for 24.7 mph on the aerobars (about 8% more power for 10% less speed).

Every time I do these comparisons, I end up being about 10% faster on the V20 than on the DF and I end up getting that speed on just slightly less power. In a sprint, it's better for me to go late on the DF and to go early on the V20 because that burst of power gives speed that lasts longer on the V20 than it does in the wind on the DF. My power records compared to previous six weeks are always on the DF unless there is an unusual segment duration that I just never did a max effort on that bike.

The best part of all of this for me though is that I can ride more by riding both. Although I'm sometimes more motivated to chase on the upright than I am alone out front on the V20, I still prefer to get more fit in comfort.

 

[Osiris]

I've been noticing that in order to get better Strava times, a lot of riders have resorted to drafting. I've never tried it, but I can see how amazingly effective it is in terms of power savings. Many riders these days have power meters on their bikes, so it wasn't hard to find examples from a long flat segment on my favorite trail. These were the results of various riders out on a group ride, five of which had bikes equipped with power meters:

26.4 mph @ 210W
26.4 mph @ 164W
26.2 mph @ 221W
26.2 mph @ 181W
26.0 mph @ 153W

Incredible. These people are barely turning the pedals, and yet they're averaging 26+ mph! By comparison, riding my M5 CHR on that same segment, I averaged 25.9 mph @ 239 watts.

 

[Barefoot Biker]

I've been noticing that in order to get better Strava times, a lot of riders have resorted to drafting.

Rotating paceline is definitely the way to go - even on the Vendetta you get some real gains from this. Please don't tell anyone else about this though or they'll stop letting me sit on the back!!

Here is a calculator that shows how much you gain depending on your position:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...uqf4r7qoWsj6f4lp2lA6IpJcqg/edit#gid=380826575

I get something like 30% saving on the upright, but it's probably more like 15% on the Vendetta. I don't think anyone has done the calculations for a recumbent paceline.

 

[RojoRacing]

I've been noticing that in order to get better Strava times, a lot of riders have resorted to drafting. I've never tried it, but I can see how amazingly effective it is in terms of power savings. Many riders these days have power meters on their bikes, so it wasn't hard to find examples from a long flat segment on my favorite trail. These were the results of various riders out on a group ride, five of which had bikes equipped with power meters:

26.4 mph @ 210W
26.4 mph @ 164W
26.2 mph @ 221W
26.2 mph @ 181W
26.0 mph @ 153W

Incredible. These people are barely turning the pedals, and yet they're averaging 26+ mph! By comparison, riding my M5 CHR on that same segment, I averaged 25.9 mph @ 239 watts.

Take those numbers with a grain of salt because power meters are plus or minus 5-10% from best to worst. I’ve ridden with some who’s my same weight and he’s drafted me 90% of the ride and will still still record 7% more power than me.

Rotating place line or pelotons in general completely neutralize the aero advantage of a high racer.

 

[Osiris]

Rotating paceline is definitely the way to go - even on the Vendetta you get some real gains from this.

I have three steel screws in my femur from the one and only time I tried it, which ended in disaster when the two leading riders hit their brakes for no apparent reason. Everyone went down like a row of dominoes. I use Strava only to monitor my own fitness level and run equipment checks, so drafting or benefiting from a tailwind would only invalidate my experiments.

 

[Osiris]

Take those numbers with a grain of salt because power meters are plus or minus 5-10% from best to worst. I’ve ridden with some who’s my same weight and he’s drafted me 90% of the ride and will still still record 7% more power than me.

Were the two of you both riding DF's, or were you on your Vendetta?

Rotating place line or pelotons in general completely neutralize the aero advantage of a high racer.

If those numbers I saw are even close to accurate, I know of only one recumbent capable of putting out equivalent power at the same speeds, and that's my M1 lowracer. It irks me that by drafting, DF's can pose a serious threat to my KOM's, but if I can learn to produce the same power on the M1 as I can on the Vendetta, I'll blow those guys into the weeds.

 

[LarryOz]

If those numbers I saw are even close to accurate, I know of only one recumbent capable of putting out equivalent power at the same speeds, and that's my M1 lowracer. It irks me that by drafting, DF's can pose a serious threat to my KOM's, but if I can learn to produce the same power on the M1 as I can on the Vendetta, I'll blow those guys into the weeds.

From what I have seen, I fully tuned rider on a TT bike comes very close to an average recumbent bike's cD. I would say a good working paceline or better yet a huge "blob" of ridders would be able to be a single recumbent. Heck, look at the real time power numbers of some of those DF's ridders that are sitting in the middle of the pack on a flat stage of the Tour de France. They are almost "sucked" along.

 

[Osiris]

From what I have seen, I fully tuned rider on a TT bike comes very close to an average recumbent bike's cD. I would say a good working paceline or better yet a huge "blob" of ridders would be able to be a single recumbent. Heck, look at the real time power numbers of some of those DF's ridders that are sitting in the middle of the pack on a flat stage of the Tour de France. They are almost "sucked" along.

I've seen plenty of crit race footage where riders sitting in the middle of the pack are barely turning the pedals at speeds of 30+ mph. I saw it happen once on the road when I encountered the fastest group in my area. They were doing around 30 mph, but in the back of the pack were two small women keeping right up with them. I couldn't figure out how they managed it until I jumped on the back of the train and noticed that pedaling at 30 mph now felt like pedaling at 18 mph. Much admiration for the guys in front, who were probably putting out 400+ watts.

 

[ccf]

Notice bullet point #4 in the Highlights section of this article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167610518303751

 

[ed72]

The thing with Crits? Corners. The guys up front sail thru and us pack fodder at the back get the accordian effect and have to jump out out 4 corners say every mile. I remember a big money Cat 1-3 Crit I entered many years ago. It was like easy for a while until someone lit a grenade and I was like, "Who are these guys".......it was 35+ down the straights for about 5 laps. Yes. Off the back.

And Strava? I think a local guy posts his results when motorpacing. I see a rider motor pacing. Just not sure if it is the guy who did 16:xx minutes on the 10 mile TT course. I suppose it is possible. The next best time on the course is a hair under 19 minutes and that was a Cat 1 during a Regional TT race and only a couple broke 20 minutes.

I honestly think as a solo bent on a flat TT type course, I could take on a small pack of other 60 year old DF riders and win or at least in my area. A huge pack of talent? No way.

 

[RojoRacing]

Were the two of you both riding DF's, or were you on your Vendetta?



If those numbers I saw are even close to accurate, I know of only one recumbent capable of putting out equivalent power at the same speeds, and that's my M1 lowracer. It irks me that by drafting, DF's can pose a serious threat to my KOM's, but if I can learn to produce the same power on the M1 as I can on the Vendetta, I'll blow those guys into the weeds.

Both DF bikes and the difference was spot on week after week over the same route many times.

 

[RojoRacing]

Large pack dynamics is reason #2 I hesitate to take part in the Assault on Mt. Mitchell. The pack averages about 25mph for the first 75 miles as a large group over rolling terrain and then the real race starts up the big climb in the last 25 miles. Even with 4-5 bents working together fat chance pulling a 10 min gap on a peloton who see you as a threat and they wouldn't be working any hard to do it. The real trick is to find a pack of riders to see a bent as a threat and not just ride their own ride, in all my time I've never had a group work together to catch or stay with me, not even once.

For those curious what reason #1 is, they won't let me bomb back down the DH after the climb.

 

[Osiris]

And Strava? I think a local guy posts his results when motorpacing. I see a rider motor pacing. Just not sure if it is the guy who did 16:xx minutes on the 10 mile TT course. I suppose it is possible. The next best time on the course is a hair under 19 minutes and that was a Cat 1 during a Regional TT race and only a couple broke 20 minutes.

Are there any clues under the "Analyze" tab that his result may have been calculated in error? Strava makes quite a few mistakes there. It's not uncommon to see an "Average speed" of say 30 mph, but when you click on the Analyze tab, you'll find that 30 mph was actually his Max speed, and that the Average was far lower. Sometimes the error happens when there's a gap in the recorded data so that the time it took to traverse that section isn't counted, resulting in an artificially high average speed. You can often see it in the graphic representation of the segment, where there's a straight line connecting two points in his path of travel; that's the part where data is missing.

I honestly think as a solo bent on a flat TT type course, I could take on a small pack of other 60 year old DF riders and win or at least in my area. A huge pack of talent? No way.

If they're in the same shape you're in, they'd win. It takes so little power to travel at very high speeds in a peloton that the aerodynamic efficiency of your bent wouldn't make up for it. Look at the numbers I posted above from one of my test segments. DF riders are traveling at ~26 mph and barely putting out 200 watts. Those are speed/power numbers I've only seen on my M1.

 

[LarryOz]

For those curious what reason #1 is, they won't let me bomb back down the DH after the climb.

There are a 1000 riders in the Assault on Mount Mitchell. They do not let anyone ride down for safety reasons - just too much traffic on the road. All you need is some wa-hoo coming up who is just a tourist and decides to pass "some cyclists" and takes up the other lane - and you are history. Not worth it!
I have ridden this ride - I would not want to "bomb" the 18+% grades down from Mount Mitchel to the Blue Ridge Parkway - way to steep and curvy. Just bombing the 6% grades on the Blue Ridge you can get to 60mph and those roads are straight compared to coming down from Mitchell.
I would love to see you do the last 25 miles Rojo and see what kind of average speed you could manage with your awesome power. The climbs are steep and relentless, and even though you say you can climb as fast as an upright at some point an upright has an advantage (I would say anything past 5-6% grade and bents are losing ground big time. I don't think a 10 minute lead to grant victory. The fastest finish this ride in 5 hours, and that is with getting first 75 in 3. They are averaging 12.5 for the last 25miles and that is smoking on these roads!
You are right - The group averages 25mph for first 75 miles, and those roads are not flat by any stretch. Actually there is at least one climbing segment (within that first 75 miles) that is pretty long and really hard in its own right. I doubt if even group at really strong bents would ever get much of a lead in the first 75, even without the pack chasing them.
I say go for it Jason!

 

[ed72]

Are there any clues under the "Analyze" tab that his result may have been calculated in error? Strava makes quite a few mistakes there. It's not uncommon to see an "Average speed" of say 30 mph, but when you click on the Analyze tab, you'll find that 30 mph was actually his Max speed, and that the Average was far lower. Sometimes the error happens when there's a gap in the recorded data so that the time it took to traverse that section isn't counted, resulting in an artificially high average speed. You can often see it in the graphic representation of the segment, where there's a straight line connecting two points in his path of travel; that's the part where data is missing.



If they're in the same shape you're in, they'd win. It takes so little power to travel at very high speeds in a peloton that the aerodynamic efficiency of your bent wouldn't make up for it. Look at the numbers I posted above from one of my test segments. DF riders are traveling at ~26 mph and barely putting out 200 watts. Those are speed/power numbers I've only seen on my M1.

Strava isn't making an error. He has several of these results that just seem incredible, like 5 mph faster than anyone else. I don't care but have noticed.

WRT Grand Masters age DF riders, I guess it depends on the peloton and their motivation but it is not assured either way. A couple points. I returned to racing and did some USA Cycling events a couple years ago and the fields of old farts aren't huge at that age and there were guys in the field who in past life represented the country internationally and our average speeds was around almost 2 mph slower than the Cat 3 riders. So, very good regional level riders and a couple top old timers. I mentioned my surprise about the "slow" speed to a younger teammate and he said, you guys are old. 50 is not 60+ unless it is So. Cal and then divide by 2.

The USA Cycling National record for 1 hour standing start is 44.7 km for 60-64 year old males and 49.4 km for 50 years old. These were done at altitude on a track. 45 km/h is below my Critical Power....at sea level....on pavement not wood. So, I disagree that the DF would necessarily win under the circumstances described below. A racing type bent has a massive advantage over DF riders on flat roads.

Here is the scenario. Slight downhill and I jump from 27 mph to 36 mph briefly and then hold at 33 mph on the flat. Just saying I hold my 5 minute power for 5 minutes, I am doing at least 33 mph on the flats on good roads. The lead DF rider would need at least 600 watts to just match that speed and more to close the gap. I'd have to guess their power duration curves but lets say the lead riders do 700 watts to go 34 mph or 1.5 feet per second faster than me to bridge (i got a good gap). How many seconds can they do that individually? Maybe 20 seconds before they are toast (PD curve guess). A 200 foot gap would take 2-3 minutes to close but that is the big assumption, would they laugh, counter, pause? Would 6-8 riders respond immediately and would they put that effort out together. Possibly. Into a crosswind off my left shoulder? Just time the attack, I'd win unless the road was very wide (fewer DF riders guttered). Google Bram's challenge against UCI team time trial (6 riders in full TT kit/bikes) for 48 km where he finished better than many teams solo as an older man in his 50's. These were not regional riders like my scenario but top pro teams. It is important to realize that the sheltered riders in the middle of the pack are not the engines. They aren't chasing. If the pack of old riders numbers 40-50 riders, there might be 6-10 riders up to the task to bridge if they work together. The big powerful riders. The motors. Not the climbers, not the sprinters, and not the wheel suckers. Are all 8-10 positioned to work together and are they willing? Getting those ducks lined up is partly why I used a 200 foot gap.

I know you won't agree but I laid out my reasons. (note: not a 75 mile break in hilly terrain, more like a flat 5-10 miler)

 

[Osiris]

Strava isn't making an error. He has several of these results that just seem incredible, like 5 mph faster than anyone else. I don't care but have noticed.

Is his bike equipped with a power meter? I get very suspicious when I see someone posting extraordinarily high speeds, but with no heart rate or power data to check it against. I know of one local rider who uses a software application called "Virtual EPO" to enhance his Strava results. He says he only does it as a joke to see how many people will fall for it, and then deletes his record after a few days.

I know you won't agree but I laid out my reasons. (note: not a 75 mile break in hilly terrain, more like a flat 5-10 miler)

No, your analysis makes perfect sense. It's just that the speeds you're basing your calculations on are quite a bit higher than I can manage for the same duration on the M5, so that makes the DF rider's task much more difficult than it would be in the scenario I had in mind. My best average speed over five minutes on a flat road would probably be more like 27-28 mph on the M5, and it would be no trouble for some DF racers in my area to beat that when riding in a paceline.

 

[ed72]

I just checked Strava. No power figures for the rider. The next fastest rider on the 10 mile route was over 2 minutes slower and did it on 393 watts, which isn't hard to believe. I think I had looked him up, he is a Cat 1 out of NYC area. Maybe legit (the guy 2 minutes faster). Just even with perfect temps and humidity and pressure, it would take about 500 watts and that assumes a CdA of 0.190 and on an upright, that is about the limit for an average male although some have gotten a little lower. 0.210-0.230 is a more normal range for someone who has really dialed it in but that would take around 560 watts. Doubtful a tale wind because a Northern wind is rare in the summer and the course is like a reverse C. Best conditions is no wind. With wind, there will be sections of tail and sections of head wind. Maybe a motor hidden. Maybe he belongs on the TdF.

My best 5 miles is just under 31 mph and best 10 miles is 29.x mph but I never really tried a flat 5 miler all out, my current best 5 miler has some elevation gain and is part of my 10 mile TT route. I usually do that 5 mile segment and then turn left up a 10 minute climb up the ridge off the river. Then, I puke. Our power levels are similar (you have more actually), I probably dialed the aero better, that's all. I'm somewhere between your M1 and M5 in terms of aero. It is too cold now for speed (cold dry air is slow and cold pavement is slow) and my power is disconcertingly way off the summer levels.

 

[Osiris]

I just checked Strava. No power figures for the rider. The next fastest rider on the 10 mile route was over 2 minutes slower and did it on 393 watts, which isn't hard to believe. I think I had looked him up, he is a Cat 1 out of NYC area. Maybe legit (the guy 2 minutes faster). Just even with perfect temps and humidity and pressure, it would take about 500 watts and that assumes a CdA of 0.190 and on an upright, that is about the limit for an average male although some have gotten a little lower. 0.210-0.230 is a more normal range for someone who has really dialed it in but that would take around 560 watts. Doubtful a tale wind because a Northern wind is rare in the summer and the course is like a reverse C. Best conditions is no wind. With wind, there will be sections of tail and sections of head wind. Maybe a motor hidden. Maybe he belongs on the TdF.

That does sound fishy to me. How long did he have to produce 560 watts to get these KOM's?

My best 5 miles is just under 31 mph and best 10 miles is 29.x mph but I never really tried a flat 5 miler all out, my current best 5 miler has some elevation gain and is part of my 10 mile TT route. I usually do that 5 mile segment and then turn left up a 10 minute climb up the ridge off the river. Then, I puke. Our power levels are similar (you have more actually), I probably dialed the aero better, that's all. I'm somewhere between your M1 and M5 in terms of aero. It is too cold now for speed (cold dry air is slow and cold pavement is slow) and my power is disconcertingly way off the summer levels.

Most of the local racers are scrawny physical specimens, almost to the point of looking sickly, but they can produce good power for a long, long time. I'd love to be able to do that, but my genetics don't allow for it. My modest goal is just to go five minutes flat out, which feels like an eternity to me at the moment. I think my "long distance" training (7+ miles) is already improving my oxygen intake. Last week I managed to demolish an old PR that I haven't been able to beat in two years of trying. This time I was able to average just shy of 400 watts all the way up the hill, and finally elevate my Strava standing from 10th place to 3rd place out of 8756. Usually my lungs would fail me about 3/4 of the way up at that power level, but not this time.