Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

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Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Since my tax refund this year is much bigger than I'd anticipated, I thought I'd splurge and make some radical changes to the M5. To make it more aero, I'm going to use a handlebar setup similar to what's on my M1, but this time using Sram etap in place of Di2. I had dismissed the etap system before as too pricey, but the cost has really come down. I much prefer the etap's shifter buttons that can be placed anywhere, and not having to route electrical wires through the frame and find a place to hide the battery is a big plus.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Our power levels are similar (you have more actually), I probably dialed the aero better, that's all. I'm somewhere between your M1 and M5 in terms of aero.

I had a suspicion at the time that I was fighting a mild headwind on that particular test segment, so I compared my data to similar segments I've run before. Something definitely isn't right, because last year on another long segment with a 0% grade, I was able to average 27.4 mph using less power! I'm going to have to go back there and run some more tests, this time making sure there isn't any wind.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
SRAM is likely to come out with a Force version of e-tap soon. Might do some googling.....

Front derailleur e-tap performance isn't the greatest. YMMV. Besides who needs the small ring in florida.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
SRAM is likely to come out with a Force version of e-tap soon. Might do some googling.....

Too late I'm afraid, I've already ordered it. I'm a big fan of the KISS principle. I really wanted to keep it simple and rugged by using a set of SRAM TT style shifters. Unfortunately my experiments with them only confirmed what I already knew. The amount of force required to shift gears with them will cause unwanted steering inputs, and I'd have to reposition my hand when shifting back down through the gears. I tried these when I first got the M5, but gave up on them soon afterward. I should have listened to John Schlitter; he warned me they were a bad idea.

Front derailleur e-tap performance isn't the greatest. YMMV. Besides who needs the small ring in florida.

Exactly. I don't recall ever using the small ring in Florida, even when climbing those steep 1% grades. I think the front derailleur will be little more than a spare battery carrier. That's another advantage of the e-tap system; if your rear derailleur battery dies during a ride, just swap batteries with the front derailleur and you're good to go.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I originally used SRAM TT shifters and I adapted. I use the etap buttons now. etap is a little slower than mechanical the rear derailleur works well and dumping the 15 foot shifter cable is a good thing. I don't know because haven't tested but keeping your arms and hands in position rather than moving to the TT levers has to improve speed (more consistent CdA). The effective length of your bars will get shorter when removing the TT shifters. I got used to it but initially I put some old wine corks in the end of the bars to get that extra 1/2 inch. The batteries seem to last a really long time, too.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I originally used SRAM TT shifters and I adapted. I use the etap buttons now. etap is a little slower than mechanical the rear derailleur works well and dumping the 15 foot shifter cable is a good thing.

Interesting that you mention that, because I've told people for years that electronic gear shifts are slower than with mechanical shifters, but no one believes me. Shifting gears the old fashioned way seems almost instantaneous on my bikes. But with Di2, I can detect the time gap between pressing the button and hearing the derailleur move the chain to the next cog. It's especially annoying when shifting several gears in rapid succession.

I don't know because haven't tested but keeping your arms and hands in position rather than moving to the TT levers has to improve speed (more consistent CdA). The effective length of your bars will get shorter when removing the TT shifters. I got used to it but initially I put some old wine corks in the end of the bars to get that extra 1/2 inch. The batteries seem to last a really long time, too.

For me it's more about avoiding the unwanted steering inputs that could cause a crash. That's already happened to me twice on the M1, and it's the reason I realized I had to get rid of the mechanical TT shifter. The Di2 shifter pod I replaced it with also allows me to cover the brake lever at all times, even when shifting.

I have no complaints about the thumb shifters I have on the M5 at the moment, but this arrangement just won't work with the more aero "gunner" style handlebars I plan to put on it.
DSCN0152-X3.jpg
 

DavidCH

In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
Lets see if i can get onto page 38 of this fine thread... so i took a ride today on the vendetta. Stoked as usual... i'm sure i get twice as much adrenalin on that bike than i do on a DF. Perhaps that's why its so euphoric?
 

Barefoot Biker

Active Member
I remember riding my Giant Defy, getting dropped or out sprinted regularly, and then coming home and searching relentlessly for 38 page threads like this one where I wondered - would the Vendetta be faster for me? It's not totally obvious because you never know how strong the riders are, but now, having one, the difference is clear.

There are some comments back a few pages about pace lines. So, I wondered also since I'm always riding in groups. Is the pace line such a huge advantage that it would nullify the aerodynamic gains of the recumbent? Well, I don't have hard data, but I do have some good anecdotal evidence. First, guess what - recumbent pace lines are faster than upright pace lines even when the upright riders are collectively stronger. Second, if you want to break away solo from a group you can, but you can also draft the upright pace line and it's glorious! Even drafting an upright, it takes less watts on the Vendetta than on another upright to hold onto a pace line. Attacking and surging is perhaps harder at first but as soon as you learn that it's a momentum machine and realize you don't need to be afraid of losing some space because you can just claw them back, you'll see that it's actually easier.

The Texas Roadhouse cycling team comes down here to Florida for a couple weeks each winter and they train together. One of my favorite rides on the Vendetta was when they joined our group on a Saturday. I sat patiently behind the chaos for twenty miles before going to the front. While on the front leading at 25mph, I hammered into a full sprint. No normal person attacks when they're on the front so, it came as a surprise and I lured their strongest rider out with me. I rotated with him, but I let us drift backwards until we were caught at which point, I attacked again and this time a different rider started a solo chase to catch me. I rode about 10% under my threshold while he chased and when he reached me, I attacked again and it just completely broke him. He drifted back into the peloton and I began riding at threshold alone out front. They got organized. They looked like a Tour de France breakaway group smoothly rotating their tight pace line and they brought me back in around seven miles. Their coach was there yelling to leave me out front so, I stopped pedaling. I slowed until they overtook me and rested again behind them for another seven miles. By that point, I was fresh again, we were close to the finish, and everyone in that group was worn out. I launched again and no one could follow. We talked about it afterwards and one of them had said he oscillated between thinking "It's not fair!" and "This is great training!" - both were correct.

So, yes, a pace line of pro riders can bring back at CAT5 solo breakaway on a Vendetta but that part didn't matter, and if that team had it to do over again what they could have done instead is ignore my attacks. If they had simply stayed together they would not have expended energy disrupting the one weapon that does work - team work, but it would have been a risk because they didn't know in advance what speed I might be able to hold alone. The next week, I rode my upright with them - S-Works Tarmac, which for reference retails for more than the Vendetta. I was pleased that I made it twelve miles before getting dropped! :)
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Our power levels are similar (you have more actually), I probably dialed the aero better, that's all. I'm somewhere between your M1 and M5 in terms of aero.

I just re-ran that same segment, and got completely different results. This time I was averaging 27.2 mph on 227 watts, a huge improvement over last time. So either I had a headwind last week, or I had a tailwind this week, or both. :confused:
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
I remember riding my Giant Defy, getting dropped or out sprinted regularly, and then coming home and searching relentlessly for 38 page threads like this one where I wondered - would the Vendetta be faster for me? It's not totally obvious because you never know how strong the riders are, but now, having one, the difference is clear.

There are some comments back a few pages about pace lines. So, I wondered also since I'm always riding in groups. Is the pace line such a huge advantage that it would nullify the aerodynamic gains of the recumbent? Well, I don't have hard data, but I do have some good anecdotal evidence. First, guess what - recumbent pace lines are faster than upright pace lines even when the upright riders are collectively stronger. Second, if you want to break away solo from a group you can, but you can also draft the upright pace line and it's glorious! Even drafting an upright, it takes less watts on the Vendetta than on another upright to hold onto a pace line. Attacking and surging is perhaps harder at first but as soon as you learn that it's a momentum machine and realize you don't need to be afraid of losing some space because you can just claw them back, you'll see that it's actually easier.

The Texas Roadhouse cycling team comes down here to Florida for a couple weeks each winter and they train together. One of my favorite rides on the Vendetta was when they joined our group on a Saturday. I sat patiently behind the chaos for twenty miles before going to the front. While on the front leading at 25mph, I hammered into a full sprint. No normal person attacks when they're on the front so, it came as a surprise and I lured their strongest rider out with me. I rotated with him, but I let us drift backwards until we were caught at which point, I attacked again and this time a different rider started a solo chase to catch me. I rode about 10% under my threshold while he chased and when he reached me, I attacked again and it just completely broke him. He drifted back into the peloton and I began riding at threshold alone out front. They got organized. They looked like a Tour de France breakaway group smoothly rotating their tight pace line and they brought me back in around seven miles. Their coach was there yelling to leave me out front so, I stopped pedaling. I slowed until they overtook me and rested again behind them for another seven miles. By that point, I was fresh again, we were close to the finish, and everyone in that group was worn out. I launched again and no one could follow. We talked about it afterwards and one of them had said he oscillated between thinking "It's not fair!" and "This is great training!" - both were correct.

So, yes, a pace line of pro riders can bring back at CAT5 solo breakaway on a Vendetta but that part didn't matter, and if that team had it to do over again what they could have done instead is ignore my attacks. If they had simply stayed together they would not have expended energy disrupting the one weapon that does work - team work, but it would have been a risk because they didn't know in advance what speed I might be able to hold alone. The next week, I rode my upright with them - S-Works Tarmac, which for reference retails for more than the Vendetta. I was pleased that I made it twelve miles before getting dropped! :)


Have ridden w some of the TR boys in and around Louisville on my Lynskey in the past. Could generally hang on the back for 10-15 miles but then get dropped. On the S40 I can hold my own but break away is probably not in the cards just yet. The extra 20 degrees of recline on the V might make the difference.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I had a personal best on a 1.8 mile climb today. 8:55 vs 10:03 prior PB. When I first started recumbents two years ago, I could not crack 13 minutes on that climb and it took a long time (almost a year) to get into the low 12's. Sounds like 1/4 mile runs. I replaced the Ventist Pad with a 1/4 inch yoga pad this morning before the ride. On another 1.4 mile (more gentle climb) segment that I have ridden hundreds of times, I beat my upright PB by 1 second and the upright PB was in full TT kit in true peak form (for me), so, this surprised me a lot since it was very cold today and I was in very floppy loose clothing.

At what gradient does an upright "win"? For me, it seems like 6-7% is the transition region. I know at 10-12%, I can't touch my upright climbing times and at 5% or below, my upright times can't touch the bent climbing times

I suppose it is easily calculated but too lazy.
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
Two strava links to the same double century two years apart on two different machines. Interesting to see how the efforts align almost perfectly with the only difference being the time which ain't so bad considering almost half the event yesterday was in the rain so I figure rolling friction must be higher when you're pushing water right? Two years ago I pulled Marko for all but a couple miles of the ride, this year I pulled a group of 30 riders down to 5 for about 150 miles of the ride. The way so many riders where willing to just sit on my wheel so 5-10 miles at a time you'd think I was on the V20 but this was on the trek. My highs and lows in the ride as far as power and motivation were very similar in both severity and timing with me really hitting a low going into the second aid stop and needing a coke and PBJ to restart my motor both years. I feel short of the average power set on the V20 by only 4 watts so the V20 is still king for sustained power over endurance efforts even if by only 2%. Makes me wonder if I had had the V20 this year if I could have held an even high average in the second half due to slightly better comfort? I say slightly because I really didn't have any mention-able discomfort on the trek for this event.

https://www.strava.com/activities/905437882/analysis/44/31185
https://www.strava.com/activities/2235442612/analysis/31/32436
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I'd say damp roads are faster roads. Less friction and lower impedance losses. Water fills the little road imperfections resulting in less vertical movement in the sidewall casings.

Where is Balor? Please tell me I am wrong.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I'd say damp roads are faster roads. Less friction and lower impedance losses. Water fills the little road imperfections resulting in less vertical movement in the sidewall casings.

Where is Balor? Please tell me I am wrong.

I would have thought so as well. On the other hand, perhaps water molecules adhering to the tire and road surfaces actually increases rolling resistance? Who knows...
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
Marko was back home but if had been there I’m sure he would have helped me plenty at the front and we have had a good chance at breaking my V20 record.

Funny you guys think wet roads would be faster, I’m going to have to disagree based on experience and understanding of friction and fluid dynamics. If you know of examples or tests otherwise please enlighten me.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Two sources of loss for the tire. Friction at the road surface and tread is one and the upward movement of the casing is another. Just to be clear, I referred to damp roads. My "feeling" on this does not apply to car tires for many reasosn. Most of the real world losses on bike tires is due to deformation of the casing and the basis of my "feeling" is that the road surface irregularities are filled in with water resulting in a smoother ride and therefore less losses in the casing. We have rather rough chip seal where I live and after a rain with damp pavement, it seems faster to me. I could run tests but then nobody would believe it anyway and in the end, who cares.

A few opinions back and forth....

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119735
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Zinn's take....

Yes, a film of water on the road reduces rolling resistance. This is something that has been understood by time trialists for a long time. For example, do you remember how Lance Armstrong, despite anticipated rain during the stage, predicted a new record for the final time trial of the 2003 Tour de France?......My theory is that the water effectively makes the road smoother, filling in spaces between pieces of gravel in the road.
Lennard

https://www.velonews.com/2007/06/bi...qa-with-lennard-zinn-rolling-resistance_12493
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Funny you guys think wet roads would be faster, I’m going to have to disagree based on experience and understanding of friction and fluid dynamics. If you know of examples or tests otherwise please enlighten me.
There is also the fact that you have to be more carefully and tentative when on wet roads. Not sure if power to go the same speed would be the same or not. Probably pretty negligible - like several seconds for a 20K or something crazy like that. Something us mere mortals do not really need to concern ourselves with
Jim, Maria, and I just finished Texas RAAM Challenge on Sat. There was heavy mist 1st 6 hours and rain the next 3. I almost went down going around a corner and it really caught my attention - so I am still sticking with wet or damps road are slower for me! :rolleyes:
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
There is also the fact that you have to be more carefully and tentative when on wet roads. Not sure if power to go the same speed would be the same or not. Probably pretty negligible - like several seconds for a 20K or something crazy like that. Something us mere mortals do not really need to concern ourselves with
Jim, Maria, and I just finished Texas RAAM Challenge on Sat. There was heavy mist 1st 6 hours and rain the next 3. I almost went down going around a corner and it really caught my attention - so I am still sticking with wet or damps road are slower for me! :rolleyes:

I considered the loss of speed through the corners after I went through the very first wet one at an intersection and found the group of 30 sprinting to catch back up. I’m no pro tour rider in the wet corners but I’m a fair bit better then the average racer it would seem. No loss of time in that department for this event because so few hard corners to navigate.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Some tires corner better than others. Vittoria CX used to be horrible. The new Vittoria Speeds aren't that great either. Want to live? Try following an experienced randonneur down a steep, turny, bumpy road when they are on 650B 42 mm Compass Snowshoe Pass tires at 40-50 psi.
 
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