Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[Mathew Fy]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827567/

The study has “Nine trained male subjects” but doesn’t mention their training regimens.
Are there similar studies looking at how individuals train? We talk about “recumbent legs”, can supine training improve muscle blood flow? Sorry if it’s already been discussed here.

 

[LarryOz]

Sorry if it’s already been discussed here.

what - you mean you you didn't want to read the previous 34 pages of data?

 

[Ross Jantz]

I suspect the VO2 kinetics of upright vs supine have an age component as well. One thing I noticed and it could be age, it takes a much longer and more careful rampup of effort during warmup before doing a hard climb or TT. I think this paper explains it.

I trained really hard on the bent for well over 1 year. I am 60 years old.

My best recent FTP on the upright was 285 watts, but this was after completing the TransAm bike race where I spent a lot of time at elevation and a lot of time in extreme heat, ostensibly increasing HCT and plasma levels = more power. My normal range of FTP would have been 272-275 watts.

I achieved 253 watts last Fall and 252 watts in the early Summer on the bent. So, I got to about 8% differential.

I hope to raise my bent FTP to 265 this year but we'll see. I am still in the base period.

I've noticed the same thing but never connected it with age before - flooring it zaps my legs but if I ramp up a bit slower I end up with faster times and no burn. At 65 they just don't seem to handle changes in tempo as easily as they did when I was younger. I presumed it was just because I was out of shape or a quality of recumbents. It feels much better to blame it on age! No scientific evidence or power meter readings, just anecdotal. Even so, as fast or faster than the upright riders in my group (the two S40s in the group are faster than the electrified trike - unless she turns the assist up, but then she runs out of juice sooner - or the Rans in the group, too) and at least as fast as I was when I was 30 (and on an upright).

 

[Ross Jantz]

There is absolutely a mind over matter component and preconceived notions can be notoriously debilitating on the one hand and amazingly liberating on the other. We are ridiculously complex and highly heterogeneous systems mechanically, physiologically and psychologically.

For me, mechanical difference between bent and DF is huge. On my Lynskey with slammed stem I always felt that lung capacity was significantly limited by physical limitation of rib cage expansion. I could improve the situation by raising the bars but than there's that darned wind thing. My first ride on a bent was on an M1 tank of a Bacchetta Giro 20 . . . all 38 lbs of it with 20" front wheel and fat, flabby tires. Despite the inefficiency of the machine I was riding it was a complete revelation. I felt like I could actually breathe with the open body position. That was improved even more when I switched to the more reclined CB. Recruited a respiratory therapist friend who generously let me bring my Lynskey and CB (S40) to his office where we set up a functional lung capacity test. Did 3 tests on each bike and found an average of 13.5% greater capacity on the CB. Now I'm sure the improved aero efficiency of the CB position is a part of my significant performance gain over the DF but almost 15% more air in and out - despite a possible reduction in O2 perfusion rate, certainly can't hurt either. My PhD is in plants, not animals, but this seems pretty darned significant.

Physiologically it is clear that it is getting increasingly difficult to compare performances from year N+1 and year N. I figure these days that if I match a PR from 2 years ago I attribute that to either better training, better mechanics or better equipment as it is clear that the overall capacity of the engine is slowly fading. So for me a true PR is calculated by performance x chronological age!

Finally the psychological part. As pointed out by several here, this is one of the great x factors. I grew up with a running coach who was all about the mental part of the game - both internal and external. The internal was all about focus, challenge and visualization. The external was all about picking the best parts of a race to issue a dose of demoralizing pie to other competitors. His two big spots were the beginning of a hill and the top of a hill. The philosophy was to hit those two spots hard because they are spots where most people drop pace. When I first returned to my regular group after getting comfortable with the CB I was on a ride with the usual suspects who were all complaining about keeping up on a long flat section. They made me pull for 8 miles straight even knowing I now only offer about a 60% pull compared to when I was sitting much higher. When we hit the first significant climb my years of listening to my coach and his damned megaphone made me kick into hill entry mode. And before long I heard a gasp from behind say, "dammit, the thing climbs too." All I can say is that other than steep slopes over something like 12-15% most folks in town now consider me to be one of the better climbers around - and overall I am a mediocre athlete by all measures. It is amazing how perception can shape our brains. So for me its focus, spin and worry more about catching the guy up ahead than whether we're supposed to be fast or slow climbers. Just put in the work and worry about the power output numbers when you're home and sitting in front of the computer!

We either had the same coach or they went to the same school of coaching! Mine would emphasize the point and train for it by having us do sprints up sand dunes, repeatedly. As I recall, we hid his damned megaphone one year but he just went and got another one! The upright riders in the group I ride with like to have one of the two S40s lead on descents - even with a 60% draft, we've gotten them a few PRs.

 

[ed72]

The study has “Nine trained male subjects” but doesn’t mention their training regimens.
Are there similar studies looking at how individuals train? We talk about “recumbent legs”, can supine training improve muscle blood flow? Sorry if it’s already been discussed here.

I have the same question. Had hoped the Larry and Jasons would have the key to that one.

Most of the quality studies have financial support to study medical issues and are not really applicable other than they all show worse delivery of O2 and CO2 clearance at less than optimal torso angle and/or relationship of legs to lungs. A slammed stem for instance. We all know that when climbing on an upright, one positions the torso upright on a climb to increase O2 delivery compared to being getting down in the drops where lung function is compromised.

I am looking to purchase a meter that measures oxygen saturation and desaturation in the leg. Either a Humon or a Moxy NIRS monitor to try and get under the hood of the Fick equation.

The flow thru the capillaries is impacted by lower hydrostatic pressure and that is what exists in the reclined position in the leg. I do not yet understand the process by which the precapillary sphincters work to open them up or if/how dilation of the capillaries occurs......this is the nature of my age/health comments on an earlier post. If the pressure is lower and if the opening size isn't flexible (wrinkly old man phenomenon), I seem to recall that the haemoglobin go thru one by one and are "squished" thru the capillary beds when they deliver O2 and then down the other end pick up the CO2. I might have that wrong. So, I did go to the health food store and bought some beet juice to see if that might help. Also beats on my argula salads. I got this idea because I watched a Dr. Andrew Coggan podcast on the Moxy and he mentioned it there or in a TT forum post that he got a few million grant to study beets (nitrate) impact on peripheral artery disease, which I am sure is a smokescreen to fund TT performance improvements.....just joking. It won't kill me to try some healthy food for a month and I'm extending my base period as well.

I have not been on an upright in well over a year. Maybe I should dust one off. Do a few hill climbs. I did a test back then and upright power was higher.

I have beaten several of my personal bests approx. 5-10 minute hill climbs on a bent and on each of them on an upright, my legs would be scorching with "lactic acid" whereas on the bent, it felt more like I was going to go down with a hypoxic feeling, which of course suggests something different. I don't get the same feeling in my legs on a bent. Weird. Hard to explain. When I finished one PB attempt, a local Cat 1 rider was coming up the mountain the other direction and was like, "dude you ok, should I call 911". The characteristic of these hills are some flatter sections that go into steeper ones where I can carry momentum gained due to the superior aerodynamics of the bent. Where I cannot beat my upright PB for instance is one climb that is 11-13% constant....it is just like 1 km but it is my interval hill. My upright PB is 4:04 and my best on the bent is 5:08 IIRC but I initially could not even make it up that bugger, so, I am in the ballgame at least. The 20% difference in time between upright and bent isn't all a power problem. Half is weight and about half is power (same PT hub meter, it doesn't lie). I was 195 when I did the 4:04 and am 211 lbs now.

When we did interval sessions in ice hockey, I had a coach who would hit us in the derriere with his stick if we dogged it or yell or curse at us....right into your ear in a Full Metal Jacket kind of way.

 

[RojoRacing]

Moral of the story is Jason needs to participate in some kind of study so the 'scientists" can unlock his secrets. I've never even done a proper VO2 or body fat test.

 

[LarryOz]

I am not sure how old most commenting about their performance on this thread are, but I am thinking most if not all (except Jason) are at least over 50, and maybe most closer to or over 60)
I suspect that age is at least one of the reasons that Jason possibly has different results than the rest of us.
The other thing that comes to mind is that we are all built a little bit different. Probably from birth (genetics) - although there may be some adaptation.
I know for me, and all the testing that I have done: that the farther I lay back and the closer to totally flat I get, it is harder to make and hold the power for. The upper end gets lower for me, and the endurance at a certain Watt/Kg also gets lower. If I raise my seat up, I can instantly push more watts for longer. It is a give and take. I can push the same wattage on an upright with ease that requires some effort at 20 degrees. It is a trade-off - get more aero, then sacrifice being able to deliver oxygen to my legs. I know my Oxygen Uptake level is on the upper end. I do not think I am able to adapt to a lower recline - I have spend 1000's upon 1000's of miles trying. Sure I can get stronger, but the moment I raise my heart up higher, the more power I can make and for longer.
Other people may discover something different about themselves - that is part of the fun of it all. Self discovering and learning to leverage what you do have to make you a better and/or faster rider.

 

[ed72]

Age is probably the factor. I still try to understand why I had rather large increase in aerobic performance last Spring and early summer. Of course I have always attributed it to my hard work.

I just remembered that my family doctor had me taking Vitamin K2 MK-7 and a couple other vitamins to help heal after torn rotator cuff surgery in late winter of 2018. Maybe the vitamin helped my power levels. At my 2 week post surgical followup, the surgeon told me that my healing was the fastest he had seen in over 30 years and that included many, many professional athletes. In effect, I passed the 6 month tests and he dismissed me. It had to be 3-4 vitamins that my MD told me to take which speed up the healing. I was just reading that Vitamin K2 MK-7 can help vascular elasticity. I still have some left over. Once I healed up in a few months, I stopped the vitamins. (Real pain is doing an Arty Johnson onto the shoulder 3 days post surgery....I found words even my ex-hockey coach did not know)

 

[RojoRacing]

I can help but feel claiming age is just grasping at straws since it's not like we're comparing a 30 year old to a 60 year old, we're comparing you against yourself. Then again without a solid answer as to why I can and most others can't, I guess you can surmise whatever you want.

How ironic is it that I tell you guys that you can do anything I can relative performance wise but then challenge my DF competition naysayers to try and match my V20 performance stating it's much harder then they imagine. I get a little sick of people claiming my performance on the V20 is purely the result of the cheater bike and completely ignore the effort and skill I put into gaining those results. My poke at my competition is mostly for what I can bring to the steep mountains and not just simply watts to the pedals.

 

[trplay]

Good ol Zwift takes away all the recumbent advantages but keeps the so called disadvantages and you do pretty good there. We just gotta get you to the East coast and Sebring one day!

 

[RojoRacing]

Good ol Zwift takes away all the recumbent advantages but keeps the so called disadvantages and you do pretty good there. We just gotta get you to the East coast and Sebring one day!

Maybe but for me it doesn't seem like there much in the way of disadvantages and I still remain all my comfort

 

[ed72]

I am not claiming anything, just searching for answers why my aerobic power (I understand why peak power is lower) is lower compared to upright.

It is just pure and simple fact.

Aside from the studies that I posted, many anecdotal stories from recumbent riders who switched from upright and who had years of power data indicate the same quandary. I could easily claim that I am fully adapted because my speed on flat roads and rolling terrain is much higher and even my brevet times on identical course are faster but the lower power is evident on real hills and repeatably lower on FTP tests or all sorts whether the data is evaluated In TrainingPeaks, GoldenCheetah, XERT, or with a pencil and paper.

If you don't think endothelial cell are impacted by age, take a look at the inelastic skin of a 60 year old and imagine the same effect within the vascular system, forgetting about any other effects to the vascular structure. It is known that aerobic performance drops off a cliff at around 65-70 years old. Why? Is it unavoidable? So, not just an academic exercise (pun intended).

Diffusion of O2 and significantly the CO2 in and out of "working muscles" is related to pressures and flow rates. CO2 level drive heart rates. If perfusion is limited into the mitochondria, the feedback loop signal (CO2) isn't going to drive a higher heart rate. This is my working idea of why I feel hypoxemia at what should be less than sub vo2max efforts compared to the upright position and yes, I think age and other health factors come into play. Nonetheless, it is all somewhat moot but trying to get faster is still fun.....

Lung function is also impacted by body position (and age).

Although stroke volume during exercise is affected by aging and posture, few studies have carefully examined the heart rate, blood pressure, and peak oxygen uptake (VO2) responses of older subjects to supine exercise. The present study examined these responses during graded supine cycling in younger (21-30 yr) and older (51-62 yr) untrained (Treadmill VO2max = 47.0 vs 32.3 ml.kg-1.min-1) and endurance-trained (66.3 vs 52.7 ml.kg-1.min-1) men (N = 6/group). All subjects had lower (P < 0.05) peak VO2 (ml.min-1) and peak heart rate responses during supine cycling compared with treadmill exercise. Additionally, the age-related reduction in peak VO2 (approximately 20-30%) was similar for supine compared with treadmill testing, even when normalized to fat-free leg volume and fat-free mass, respectively. However, at given absolute intensities (VO2) of supine exercise, heart rates were 10-15 beats.min-1 less (P < 0.05) in both older groups. Across relative supine work intensities (% of peak), systolic pressure increased most rapidly in the younger trained and older untrained groups. These findings suggest that the effects of aging on peak VO2 are similar during treadmill and supine exercise in both endurance-trained and untrained men. These data also indicate that the heart rate response to supine exercise is attenuated in healthy older men and contributes to their reduced peak VO2.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8832544

Positioning plays a significant role in altering FRC. It is highest when in an upright position and decreases as one moves from upright to supine/prone or Trendelenburg position. The greatest decrease in FRC occurs when going from 60° to totally supine at 0°.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_residual_capacity

When changing body position from upright to supine, lateral or prone, FRC is reduced by 0.7-0.8 L, down to an average of 2.5 L (there is considerable variation between subjects, depending on sex, age and body configuration).

https://www.esahq.org/~/media/ESA/F...on ventilation perfusion matching (2004).ashx

 

[RojoRacing]

If you don't think endothelial cell are impacted by age, take a look at the inelastic skin of a 60 year old and imagine the same effect within the vascular system, forgetting about any other effects to the vascular structure. It is known that aerobic performance drops off a cliff at around 65-70 years old. Why? Is it unavoidable? So, not just an academic exercise (pun intended).

Well that's a fact but we're discussing how your power compares between to different bike at your current age and not where you're at now compared you yourself 5 or 10 years ago correct? Just like Pro Triathlon racers who have a higher threshold power in the aero bar position vs in the hoods of a road bike because they spend 90% of their time training in that position. I see the same effect on my road bike if I focus on one position over the other for several weeks. I feel the effects of power efficiency happen much faster on the different DF positions because ether position is not 100% comfortable like the V20 so there's more adaptation involved.

 

[Osiris]

Well, I'm not getting any younger, but it seems that even after years of riding a recumbent, I'm still getting stronger. On Saturday I went riding with a local group, which I haven't done in over a year. Three of them like to think of themselves as a cut above the rest when it comes to sprints, so I couldn't resist taking them on.

As we came within range of the sprint zone, I was at the very end of the pace line, trying to stay out of everyone's way so they couldn't complain that no one can draft off a recumbent. Then I noticed the three 'fast guys' in front start to pull away rapidly for the sprint. I had to pass everyone in the group just to get to them, which meant closing about a hundred yard gap. I've never before compared the V20 to my previous Bacchetta CA2 before this, but there's no question any longer that the V20 is definitely the faster bent. I managed to catch up to the three lead guys about 2/3rd of the way through the sprint zone. They were practically sitting on each other's rear wheels, trying to save every watt of energy they could. As I passed the lead rider, the guy behind him yelled out what sounded like a warning, though I couldn't quite decipher it. When we arrived at our rest stop, everyone was marveling at how fast the recumbent was. Everyone that is, except for the lead sprinter, who didn't look happy at all.

 

[ed72]

You may have missed that I compared upright power to bent power (within a few weeks of each other) after not having ridden the upright in almost a year. I am quite certain my 5 minute power on an upright would be higher today despite not being on an upright in around 18 months. I do not recall ever mentioning power 5-10 years ago, but even so, the power loss over 5-10 years of aging still would not explain the differences but I never said or intimated that. I posted innumerable studies. Or the anecdotes from other bent riders. I am quite certain that I now understand the physiological limiters and the challenges to obtaining close to the same aerobic power output on a reclined recumbent. I have spent the last few days learning more.

Is it true that "Pro Triathlon racers who have a higher threshold power in the aero bar position vs in the hoods of a road bike"..? That isn't what I have read for many years over on SlowTwitch or Friel's blog or many other.. There may be one or two Black Swans in that population, too. I have been recently in contact with a high level Tri coach discussing lung respiration/perfusion and he thought the Tri positioning that results in lower power compared to upright road bikes might be the cause for a similar drop in the supine-like position of the recumbent. I follow TT forums pretty closely and frankly cannot remember anyone ever posting that they made more power in a Tri TT position than on the hoods in a more upright position, which agrees with how the lungs work.

Well that's a fact but we're discussing how your power compares between to different bike at your current age and not where you're at now compared you yourself 5 or 10 years ago correct? Just like Pro Triathlon racers who have a higher threshold power in the aero bar position vs in the hoods of a road bike because they spend 90% of their time training in that position. I see the same effect on my road bike if I focus on one position over the other for several weeks. I feel the effects of power efficiency happen much faster on the different DF positions because ether position is not 100% comfortable like the V20 so there's more adaptation involved.

 

[ed72]

(BTW....I contacted the Tri coach to see if top tri guys and gals had tricks to train the aerobic system in the compromised position. I already knew from the research that 10% lower power from upight to supine is a normal lower limit in trained athletes)

 

[RojoRacing]

You may have missed that I compared upright power to bent power (within a few weeks of each other) after not having ridden the upright in almost a year. I am quite certain my 5 minute power on an upright would be higher today despite not being on an upright in around 18 months. I do not recall ever mentioning power 5-10 years ago, but even so, the power loss over 5-10 years of aging still would not explain the differences but I never said or intimated that. I posted innumerable studies. Or the anecdotes from other bent riders. I am quite certain that I now understand the physiological limiters and the challenges to obtaining close to the same aerobic power output on a reclined recumbent. I have spent the last few days learning more.

Is it true that "Pro Triathlon racers who have a higher threshold power in the aero bar position vs in the hoods of a road bike"..? That isn't what I have read for many years over on SlowTwitch or Friel's blog or many other.. There may be one or two Black Swans in that population, too. I have been recently in contact with a high level Tri coach discussing lung respiration/perfusion and he thought the Tri positioning that results in lower power compared to upright road bikes might be the cause for a similar drop in the supine-like position of the recumbent. I follow TT forums pretty closely and frankly cannot remember anyone ever posting that they made more power in a Tri TT position than on the hoods in a more upright position, which agrees with how the lungs work.

Sorry I didn't mean higher but equal power when both positions are fitted correctly. My FTP on the DF bike is the same both in the drops and the aero bars after dialing in my fit with the aero bars thanks to my dual position seat post.

As for the 5-10, some on here keep referencing to "I used to make this much power in the past" with no reference to if that past was last week or back in their hay day so I'm just pointing out the obvious.

 

[Osiris]

You may have missed that I compared upright power to bent power (within a few weeks of each other) after not having ridden the upright in almost a year. I am quite certain my 5 minute power on an upright would be higher today despite not being on an upright in around 18 months.

That certainly describes my own experience. I hadn't ridden a DF for two or three years until a few months ago. Right away I noticed much higher power numbers on it than what I'd grown used to seeing on any of my bents. On one hill, I managed to average 440 watts all the way up. The best I've ever done on a bent on that same climb was 372 watts. The same Garmin Vector 3 power meter was used in both tests.

 

[trplay]

Sounds like you are on the wrong bike. With todays super aero uprights and body position data you should destroy your recumbent self on any 10 mile course that isn't downhill all the way.

 

[ed72]

Some upright TT racers can get their CdA down below 0.200 and I have seen numbers approaching 0.180.

Very few recumbent riders get that low in terms of aerodynamics. But I doubt the upright TT riders can hold that position for very long.