Test riding a true racing recumbent

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I am not sure if midsole is more efficient or not. I have been riding that way for about 5 years. I tried to measure and "thought" I saw 3-5 beats lower HR at the same power. It did not give me more power at threshold. I also tried to test measuring blood lactate. For long distance, midsole helps with fatigue of the calf and feet and says bye bye to hot foot. Inconclusive WRT to efficiency for me, similar to QXL rings....I think there is a small effect. I just could not prove it....maybe 2-3%. RS4X crank? Huge effect on my peak power that is easily measured.

I'm going to have to do some research on that RS4X crank. More power is always good.
 

3bs

whereabouts unknown
i have mids on all shoes but one. hits below ball but above center of arch. it matters
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I have been on my midsoles for about 10 years. Then Larry had to try it. The only way he could catch me.
Yes, I am a mid-sole believe now. Increased my power by at least 20%.
No - not really - but it does feel better on my foot, and I never get hot-foot now.
I think there are some other advantages as well - but time limits my ability to put them down right now.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I asked Phil Plath about his power numbers on his recumbents compared to a diamond frame, and this was his reply:

"Yes, recumbent power numbers come in at sometimes 10% less for longer runs, but upwards of 30-35% less for sprints. My max sprint number on the Aero was 1050, while my upright max is 1400. My "long" power interval is only 5 mins., and there the difference is much less - right around 10%. I didn't have power data for my M1 hour, but I estimate it at under 300 watts, where my upright would be approximately over300 watts."

So what he writes here matches my observations that at lower power outputs there isn't as much of a difference between the two platforms, but at high power outputs the differences are much more pronounced.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
That pretty much mirrors my experience, too.

When I put the RS4X cranks on, my peak power increased from around 700 watts to around 950 watts (still much lower than upright sprint power). It is winter so my numbers are low but a recent peak power 5 second test had me at 919 watts and I was rarely below 1200 on an upright and usually a touch more. My best 5 minute power on the bent is 315 watts compared to 350 watts on the upright, but normally I struggle to get over 305 watts for 5 minutes on the bent. So, my 5 minute power is 10-15% more power on the upright compared to the bent. The increase in anaerobic power made a huge difference in time to distance in lumpy terrain for me, just the ability to keep it rolling and nor get bogged down was huge.

I am reluctant to say the difference for me is only 10% at FTP simply because I think if I trained this hard on an upright, I'd probably have had higher power on it. But this also comports with the VO numbers in the various studies that I had linked; however, the white elephant in all of them those studies? The subjects never got their bent legs for Christmas-not to say I have not given up on full adaptation but it is going on two years, so, I suspect that I have hit a limit to improvement. What precisely is the adaptation or the so-called bent legs.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
What precisely is the adaptation or the so-called bent legs.

I've obviously seen some adaptation occur, as I imagine every bent rider has, but I'm not at all sure what accounts for it. John Schlitter, who sold me the M5, mentioned that it takes about 1000 miles of riding to get "bent legs". But he also mentioned that some riders never adapt at all.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Seems like a strange present - you need one stocking for each leg.

I asked the Tooth Fairy every night but after a month, I set my sights on Santa.

To be less silly.

If folks say "bent legs" they mean the initial soreness of a new riding position, I get that. It is a no brainer. Any position change will make muscles sore. I am talking about lower aerobic power and slowish climbing due to less delivery of oxygen to the working muscles on a reclined bent due to a combination of impaired lung respiration/perfusion, much slower "VO2 slow component", and possibly an age or health related impairment of perfusion at the capillaries due to a combination of lower hydrostatic pressure and inability of the arterioles and capillaries to compensate with sufficient dilation. I have never found a study showing equal aerobic power output comparing upright to nearly supine positions (say under 25 degrees). The lungs deliver about 8-10% less O2 in the reclined position and that might real limit. If so, I have nearly reached the max. adaptation.

Lower peak sprinting power is more about mechanics and geometry of the body's bits and pieces and is no less complex, but this is more your domain, Osiris. I just can't envision an optimized hip angle to maximize peak anaerobic power in the extreme positions of a reclined recumbent nor can the full range of glutes and psoas be activated because they are pinned to the seat by gravity (although the Polk seat may allow better use). I make 20-25% more peak power on an upright, I just accept that one although I am sure this gap would be much smaller on say a S30 or S40 Cruz due to better angles but then there is that wind thing.
 
Yes, I am a mid-sole believe now. Increased my power by at least 20%.
No - not really - but it does feel better on my foot, and I never get hot-foot now.
I think there are some other advantages as well - but time limits my ability to put them down right now.
Would love to see people's midsole modifications and pedals as this may address my hot foot issue (not a huge issue as I don't get the opportunity to ride long enough for it to become an issue at the moment)
I may try with MTB pedals and cleats as I already have these although I can see one guide that says there can be an issue with this
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
Would love to see people's midsole modifications and pedals as this may address my hot foot issue (not a huge issue as I don't get the opportunity to ride long enough for it to become an issue at the moment)
I may try with MTB pedals and cleats as I already have these although I can see one guide that says there can be an issue with this

I ride SPD mtb 2-hole type all the way back. Probably not considered true mid foot but probably 1-1.5” rear of my typical DF position. Made all the difference in the world. And you can walk in the shoes too!
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Would love to see people's midsole modifications and pedals as this may address my hot foot issue (not a huge issue as I don't get the opportunity to ride long enough for it to become an issue at the moment)
I may try with MTB pedals and cleats as I already have these although I can see one guide that says there can be an issue with this

I have only modified shoes to accommodate two hole cleats, specifically, Speedplay Frogs or Syzr pedals although SPD pedal cleats should work. I doubt that three hole racing style cleats would fit midsole due to the narrow area of the sole there. There isn't much guidance out there how to modify but this video is pretty good


https://www.joefrielsblog.com/2014/11/midsole-cleats-and-pedals.html

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/01/cleat-position.html
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I finally completed the new handlebar setup for my M1. The previous setup worked fine, but using a conventional V-shaped handlebar resulted in the brake levers facing the wrong direction, causing almost the entire surface area of my XL hands to be facing directly into the air stream. The picture below also shows how cluttered it looked. On a bent designed solely for speed, this was far from ideal, so some radical redesign had to be done.

DSCN0232-XL.jpg


This was the design I came up with to replace it:

4.jpg


The horizontal crossbar is just a piece of 7/8" aluminum tubing, sourced from a hardware store, while the grips on the ends are made from a set of Bontrager mountain bike grips with the curved ends cut off. The Di2 TT style shifter pod has an expander plug on the end which fit perfectly into the aluminum tube.

When I removed the existing handlebars, I noticed that the manufacturer of the tiller had done me the favor of drilling a large hole in the base of the handlebar clamp. This gave me the idea of routing the electrical wire from the shifter pod internally through the crossbar and down the length of the tiller, where it exits through a slot and plugs into the Di2 junction box. Very clean and aero. Eventually I'll want to wrap some bar tape over the grips, but I need to do a few test runs first in case any further tweaking is required.

DSCN0237-XL.jpg


After some experimentation, I angled the brakes outward slightly so that the levers would fit into the web of my hands for best leverage and comfort. This also made it possible for my thumb to press the shifter buttons without interference from the lever, so that I could operate the brake while shifting gears if need be. On the left side I installed a bar end mirror which had been in my parts bin for years. Positioning it as shown behind my left hand keeps it out of the airstream. As before, the width of the grips positions my hands directly behind my thighs when pedaling, thereby hiding them from the wind as much as possible. On the trainer, everything worked flawlessly. Shifting up and down through the gears is effortless, and the Cane Creek brakes seem to work quite a bit better than the ones they replaced. All that remains now is to take it for a test ride.
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
I finally completed the new handlebar setup for my M1. The previous setup worked fine, but using a conventional V-shaped handlebar resulted in the brake levers facing the wrong direction, causing almost the entire surface area of my XL hands to be facing directly into the air stream. The picture below also shows how cluttered it looked. On a bent designed solely for speed, this was far from ideal, so some radical redesign had to be done.

DSCN0232-XL.jpg


This was the design I came up with to replace it:

4.jpg


The horizontal crossbar is just a piece of 7/8" aluminum tubing, sourced from a hardware store, while the grips on the ends are made from a set of Bontrager mountain bike grips with the curved ends cut off. The Di2 TT style shifter pod has an expander plug on the end which fit perfectly into the aluminum tube.

When I removed the existing handlebars, I noticed that the manufacturer of the tiller had done me the favor of drilling a large hole in the base of the handlebar clamp. This gave me the idea of routing the electrical wire from the shifter pod internally through the crossbar and down the length of the tiller, where it exits through a slot and plugs into the Di2 junction box. Very clean and aero. Eventually I'll want to wrap some bar tape over the grips, but I need to do a few test runs first in case any further tweaking is required.

DSCN0237-XL.jpg


After some experimentation, I angled the brakes outward slightly so that the levers would fit into the web of my hands for best leverage and comfort. This also made it possible for my thumb to press the shifter buttons without interference from the lever, so that I could operate the brake while shifting gears if need be. On the left side I installed a bar end mirror which had been in my parts bin for years. Positioning it as shown behind my left hand keeps it out of the airstream. As before, the width of the grips positions my hands directly behind my thighs when pedaling, thereby hiding them from the wind as much as possible. On the trainer, everything worked flawlessly. Shifting up and down through the gears is effortless, and the Cane Creek brakes seem to work quite a bit better than the ones they replaced. All that remains now is to take it for a test ride.

Can you post a pic of the setup w your hands on the grips? For the life of me I can’t envision a comfortable hand position. Probably just my limited 3D imagination.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
The setup I had envisioned for my ride has the bar end going forward and up away from the thighs with the grips placed slightly inboard on the 7/8 inch aluminum crossbar by about 1 inch to allow a small shelf for the meaty part of the hand rest on it. My thought were to get the hands forward and high enough to get the elbows out of the wind.

I am really curious if the handing is acceptable with those gunner bars on the M1
 
Top