Test riding a true racing recumbent

[Osiris]

Can you post a pic of the setup w your hands on the grips? For the life of me I can’t envision a comfortable hand position. Probably just my limited 3D imagination.

 

[Osiris]

The setup I had envisioned for my ride has the bar end going forward and up away from the thighs with the grips placed slightly inboard on the 7/8 inch aluminum crossbar by about 1 inch to allow a small shelf for the meaty part of the hand rest on it. My thought were to get the hands forward and high enough to get the elbows out of the wind.

I had considered that, but the ergonomics didn't work for me. Following John Schlitter's advice, I prefer to keep the tiller bar as short as possible and perfectly horizontal. But that means that angling the bar ends forward causes them to hit your thighs. If you try to avoid this by raising the angle of the tiller, I think you'll find that the resulting configuration interferes with your view. The idea of creating a small shelf at the ends of the crossbar is a good one, but in my case I had to cut the curved ends off the bar grips in order to install my bar end mirror and Di2 shifter. Cutting the curved ends off left a straight section of only about 3", which is not long enough for my XL hands. I can slide my hands down far enough to get a good grip on the bar ends, but that wouldn't be possible if there was a 1" section of crossbar sticking out. However, depending on what kind of setup you intend to use, none of this may apply in your case.

I am really curious if the handing is acceptable with those gunner bars on the M1

The handling with the gunner bars that came with it was beyond bad. Steering it with any degree of control proved nearly impossible. In two cases my thighs hit my hand when pedaling, causing a sudden loss of control and subsequent crash. Having my hands that high also blocked my view of the road. I asked Phil why on earth he settled on that particular configuration, because I couldn't imagine anything worse. His response was that having the gunner grips pointing upward was the best way to prevent accidental thigh contact with his hands, while keeping his arms as straight as possible. He tells me that he never performed any tests to verify it, but believed that keeping the elbows up resulted in a more aero posture. Being able to see what was in front of him was of little importance, since he only raced the M1 on a circular track where issues like handling and visibility really didn't matter.

 

[ed72]

Osiris....maybe you could give me some insight into difference of racing recumbent with gunner or tiller bars versus the V20 type bars.

I had wanted to buy a V20 but my medical condition scared me off. My left arm and hand is very weak and sometimes painful to the point I ride one handed for periods of time. I came to the conclusion (no facts, just thinking about it) that pulling on MBB bars to counter the leg action would take some effort especially on very long rides like brevets of 10-50 hours riding. Do you actually have to pull the V20 bars or is it more a little wiggle? Can you ride the V20 with one arm giving the other one a rest? On the tiller type bars, my arms just rest on my belly and do nothing. (sorry for the OT post)

 

[Osiris]

Osiris....maybe you could give me some insight into difference of racing recumbent with gunner or tiller bars versus the V20 type bars.

I had wanted to buy a V20 but my medical condition scared me off. My left arm and hand is very weak and sometimes painful to the point I ride one handed for periods of time. I came to the conclusion (no facts, just thinking about it) that pulling on MBB bars to counter the leg action would take some effort especially on very long rides like brevets of 10-50 hours riding. Do you actually have to pull the V20 bars or is it more a little wiggle? Can you ride the V20 with one arm giving the other one a rest? On the tiller type bars, my arms just rest on my belly and do nothing. (sorry for the OT post)

It depends on the circumstances. When just rolling along enjoying the ride, the amount of effort put into the handlebars to counteract pedal steer is so small that I'm not even aware of it. I would estimate it to be no more than 2 lbs of force produced with each arm, so it's not the case that your arms will ever need to rest. Occasionally I notice my biceps flexing slightly, which is the only reminder that they're doing any work at all. But when it comes to climbing steep hills or sprinting, I do pull hard on the handlebars. Perhaps harder than I need to. There was another V20 rider in my area named Blake who told me that he had learned to perfectly balance the push/pull of his pedal strokes so that he no longer required any handlebar input to correct for pedal steer. I got my V20 from Ben Tomblin; it was one of several in his stable. The first thing I noticed was that his handlebar reach was far shorter than what felt comfortable to me, which was odd because Ben and I are the same size. I was told that the reason he did that was because on long rides he would periodically rest his forearms on the handlebars. That suggests to me that he's not even using his arms to correct for pedal steer, which gives credence to what Blake told me.

I can ride the V20 with only one arm, but not when pedaling hard. I try to balance out the load evenly between both arms so that one is pulling while the other is pushing, so riding with only one hand on the handlebar feels awkward to me. On bents like the M5, I can do it quite comfortably because the arms aren't involved in pedaling.

Riding for 10-50 hours is inconceivable to me. I don't know how anyone's body can tolerate that, although there obviously are people who can manage it. All I can say is that based on my 12 hour motorcycle rides, the tiniest discomfort which may be barely noticeable at first, will be magnified a thousand fold after many hours in the saddle.

 

[LarryOz]

I had wanted to buy a V20 but my medical condition scared me off. My left arm and hand is very weak and sometimes painful to the point I ride one handed for periods of time. I came to the conclusion (no facts, just thinking about it) that pulling on MBB bars to counter the leg action would take some effort especially on very long rides like brevets of 10-50 hours riding. Do you actually have to pull the V20 bars or is it more a little wiggle? Can you ride the V20 with one arm giving the other one a rest?

It has been my experience that eventually there is no real "pulling or pushing" on the handlebar to counteract what you all "the leg action". I think the legs just eventually take over entirely. Many people can ride no hands for long periods of time. I ride with the tiny little stubby handlebar and can easily ride with one hand, and can get bottles or do other things with my other hand - or even stretch it out over the top of the boom to relax it since it is always bent with my handlebar configuration. Of course when you are putting is sudden "big power" you are going to bring the whole upper body to that show.

 

[3bs]

interesting look. very curious how it handles and feels. the original set up is identical to my tica, except i have front rings too.

 

[paco1961]

Over the last year since I started w the S40 (first bent) I’ve progressed from death grip to gorilla grip to firm handshake and now to a very light touch. As @LarryOz described, big efforts are a different story but are usually short lived. The death grip is not only unproductive but for me also resulted in serious tennis elbow that is just now fading. Still not great without hands but 1 handed is no problem. Not sure how I would feel after 30 1-handed miles.

 

[bladderhead]

I can ride my Silvio no-hands for ever, or until I start going uphill. No-hands is no power.

 

[Osiris]

I just got back from a short test ride in an empty parking lot. I'm pleased to say that the upside down brakes work just fine, which means I now have this option to consider in future. With it, I can cover the brake levers at all times without pressure building up in my fingers as would be the case with a conventional lever side up brake arrangement. The only adjustment I had to make was to rotate the Di2 shifter pod inward slightly to get a bit more clearance between my thumb and the brake lever when downshifting. Handling was unaffected and felt quite natural despite my palms now facing each other rather than directly ahead. All things considered, a very good result, and something I'm tempted to try on my M5 as well. Later today I hope to have time to take it out for some more speed testing.

 

[tiltmaniac]

I finally completed the new handlebar setup for my M1. The previous setup worked fine, but using a conventional V-shaped handlebar resulted in the brake levers facing the wrong direction, causing almost the entire surface area of my XL hands to be facing directly into the air stream. The picture below also shows how cluttered it looked. On a bent designed solely for speed, this was far from ideal, so some radical redesign had to be done.

This was the design I came up with to replace it:

The horizontal crossbar is just a piece of 7/8" aluminum tubing, sourced from a hardware store, while the grips on the ends are made from a set of Bontrager mountain bike grips with the curved ends cut off. The Di2 TT style shifter pod has an expander plug on the end which fit perfectly into the aluminum tube.

When I removed the existing handlebars, I noticed that the manufacturer of the tiller had done me the favor of drilling a large hole in the base of the handlebar clamp. This gave me the idea of routing the electrical wire from the shifter pod internally through the crossbar and down the length of the tiller, where it exits through a slot and plugs into the Di2 junction box. Very clean and aero. Eventually I'll want to wrap some bar tape over the grips, but I need to do a few test runs first in case any further tweaking is required.

After some experimentation, I angled the brakes outward slightly so that the levers would fit into the web of my hands for best leverage and comfort. This also made it possible for my thumb to press the shifter buttons without interference from the lever, so that I could operate the brake while shifting gears if need be. On the left side I installed a bar end mirror which had been in my parts bin for years. Positioning it as shown behind my left hand keeps it out of the airstream. As before, the width of the grips positions my hands directly behind my thighs when pedaling, thereby hiding them from the wind as much as possible. On the trainer, everything worked flawlessly. Shifting up and down through the gears is effortless, and the Cane Creek brakes seem to work quite a bit better than the ones they replaced. All that remains now is to take it for a test ride.

That bar end mirror has probably the worst cda component of anything on your bars...

 

[Osiris]

That bar end mirror has probably the worst cda component of anything on your bars...

It's almost completely shielded from the air stream by my hand.

 

[Osiris]

So my first test ride with the new tiller setup seems to have been a big success. Braking, shifting gears, and handling are all improved. I repeated the 16 mile course I ran a few weeks ago and smashed my previous records, bagging two KOM's in the process. Hard to say to what degree the new more aero tiller design played a role in this, though. The average power numbers were about ten watts higher than last time, but still low compared to the power I'm able to produce on the M5, and certainly the V20. The difference in speed compared to last time was so significant that I suspected I might have been benefiting from a tailwind, but I found no evidence of one when I got back to the trailhead. There was a little bit of breeze in the parking lot, but it was blowing perpendicular to my direction of travel, and the trail is heavily wooded on both sides, so it wouldn't have helped. More testing is definitely needed. The trail itself is rather monotonous. Below is all you see for about 25 miles, and then back again. But it's ideal for speed/power testing because it's almost perfectly flat, straight, and well paved. And because it's such a boring trail, hardly anyone rides it. I only had to yell at one person to get out of my way.

 

[ed72]

In the end, performance and comfort are the keys.

I have had significant aero improvements where I was left wondering if it was the wind even when there appears to be none. Eventually, you accept that the ride wasn't a fluke but you are correct to be suspicious.

 

[bazzawill]

Oh, it definitely is my size, despite it's tightness. Not a wrinkle in sight. I can't see wearing it for very long, though.

Seeing how smooth and aero my skinsuit has made me, I'm now more conscious of various parts of the M1 that could use a bit of smoothing, starting with the crankset, which I'd want to look more like this:

I would love to see some cda numbers or comparison of skinsuit vs rumpled jersey

 

[ed72]

I would love to see some cda numbers or comparison of skinsuit vs rumpled jersey

Off the top of my head...range given as error bars. Approximate, I'd have to check the actual numbers.

Pretty decent wool rando jersey and wool knickers = 0.205-0.215 for me (looks tight to the eye)

Tight Castelli Bodypaint or Assos S7 jersey with Assos T Centos bibs = 0.180-0.190 (actual might be 0.005 higher)

Skinsuit with arm covers and special socks and slightly more aero helmet = 0.150-0.160

Take with a grain of salt. I measured with Chung method. I also do 10 miles up and then 10 miles down a flat road at consistent effort, but in the end TT times don't lie. I do the road tests because wind is never zero and there is always yaw. Faster consistently is faster. Is it 0.005 or 0.015 improvement. I am confident in the relative magnitude. I don't care about absolute numbers, so, that is why my numbers should be taken with caution.

For a bike like Osiris', there isn't a lot of low hangin fruit. At 30 mph, one skinsuit to another can represent 15-20 watts savings. The advantages of one suit to another are also speed dependent.

Like Osiris' bike, my front end could use a more aero crank and pedals and shoes, which I probably need to clean up to chop 40 seconds off my 10 mile TT as hoped. I might have 10-15 more watts to tune the engine.

 

[Osiris]

Yesterday I rode the same trail for 54 miles with three iron man competitors on their TT bikes. One of them was enormous; at least 6'-6" and probably weighing in the neighborhood of 280 lbs. Throughout the ride, I noticed that the other two stayed behind him the whole way, no doubt to capitalize on his draft. I was curious to see whether the power his massive legs could produce would overcome the huge amount of drag created by his giant body, but he just wouldn't go any faster than 21-22 mph. Several times I picked up the pace to 24 mph and opened up a large gap between us, but the others just stayed at their own pace.

I was amazed when picking up the speed how much more power I could make on the V20 compared to the M1. I saw something like a 35-40 watt difference for extended periods, and this was near the end of the ride when I was already tired. If I could manage that on the M1, I would be within reach of a 30 mph cruising speed. That's a rough guess based on the fact that on Friday I held 26.4 mph at only 192 watts. With a skin suit and faster rolling tires, who knows what might be possible. The thing I noticed about long distances at maximum effort, though, is that within minutes my mouth and throat have completely dried out. By the time I reach the 7 mile marker, my tongue, gums, and throat feel like dry tree bark. It's an awful sensation, and it makes me wonder how guys doing 20 or 40 km TT's cope with it.

 

[LarryOz]

I would love to see some cda numbers or comparison of skinsuit vs rumpled jersey

I saw an interesting "result" happen with "rumpled jersey". I was at the A2 WindTunnel with Cruzbike a while ago. Jim Parker put his skin suit on (no small feat by the way) - went in the wind-tunnel, came out, switched to his super loose, flapping in the wind Jersey and go a lower cda value. That is where I stopped thinking about trying to pour myself into the skin suit. Not sure everyone would have the same result, but perhaps the skin-suit helps more when you are in the up-right position.

 

[LarryOz]

I was amazed when picking up the speed how much more power I could make on the V20 compared to the M1

I believe it is because of the lower seat angle. I have the same thing happen to me on my Raptor (which is 11-12 degrees) when compared to the V20 (at 20 degrees), and I have compared other bikes and models too. This makes a huge difference on Zwift, where we are not given any aero advantage for being flatter on the bike. Some people say you can make the same watts, you just have to do it "Long enough". Not sure how "long" I would like to try it, but I rode the Raptor for probably 6500 miles exclusively. Instantly hop on the V20 - and make at least 10% more power. Now, the Raptor can still probably go "faster" than the "v20" on 10% less power, but I would rather ride the V20 on the open road. (I really hate chain interference) If I am on a track, I would ride the Raptor, or my Arrowhead.

 

[Osiris]

I believe it is because of the lower seat angle. I have the same thing happen to me on my Raptor (which is 11-12 degrees) when compared to the V20 (at 20 degrees), and I have compared other bikes and models too. This makes a huge difference on Zwift, where we are not given any aero advantage for being flatter on the bike. Some people say you can make the same watts, you just have to do it "Long enough". Not sure how "long" I would like to try it, but I rode the Raptor for probably 6500 miles exclusively. Instantly hop on the V20 - and make at least 10% more power. Now, the Raptor can still probably go "faster" than the "v20" on 10% less power, but I would rather ride the V20 on the open road. (I really hate chain interference) If I am on a track, I would ride the Raptor, or my Arrowhead.

I've seen that Raptor. The amount of pedal/wheel overlap alone would make me nervous about riding it, even on the track.

I don't buy the claim some people make that eventually you'll be able to make the same watts on any platform. I've got thousands of miles of experience on various bents, and I've yet to see any evidence of that. I'm hoping that in the case of the M1, the thing limiting power production is that my legs can't get full extension like they can on my other bents. Hopefully lengthening the slot in the frame and sliding the BB forward will solve that.

 

[ed72]

I don't buy the claim some people make that eventually you'll be able to make the same watts on any platform. I've got thousands of miles of experience on various bents, and I've yet to see any evidence of that.

I have only ridden two bents extensively and I guess it would be shock, I agree.

How long is eventually? What transformations are expected to take place.