Cruzbike Time Trial Challenge 2020

[RojoRacing]

Yup I share my romantic approach because now many can or do in such detail. I may not like plans but my mind never turns off, I’m always processing something. I find most people sharing ideas of training always defer to some kind of plan or structure. My beef with structure is not that it doesn’t work, it’s obvious it can as it does for so many especially in the hands of elites. My issues is it I’ve seen so many promisingly talented people I’ve introduced and brought up in running and cycling fall into structured training and plans and I end up losing them as running or riding partners because our once rando adventures don’t fit into that weeks plan. Even worse they rarely ever match my race performances after years of training even though when they were first hanging out with me I could see their potential as greater than my own.

In reality the romantic method(I really like that name tag ) is a more difficult method to net results because it requires a person to really think for themselves and listen to their body. They need to make calculations on the fly and envision what ifs and whys instead of just doing the plan. This is why most people look to a trainer or plan, they want to eliminate their own uncertainties due to their lack of experience and that is ok.

I don’t share my view as a means to convince anyone it’s the right way. I share my methods to confirm there is another way rarely talked about in detail and even more rarely publicized in some book.

Chris I may have tripped up today but I’m still coming to take your title of wattage beast, the gauntlet has been thrown And pizza has been ordered :lol

 

[ratz]

My issues is it I’ve seen so many promisingly talented people I’ve introduced and brought up in running and cycling fall into structured training and plans and I end up losing them as running or riding partners because our once rando adventures don’t fit into that weeks plan

It's not really the Rando's that are the problem when people that aren't natures try to train or do structured training; it's the obsession with going hard and not resting that gets to them. They "get" the I must train part, but they don't "get" the I must rest part.

Here is some training data from a real person (not me) that was zwifting and pseudo training. Until April it was over train, crash hard the energy system; then loose gains; push hard to get going then fade. Almost like falling off the end of the pace line and having to punch to get back on; just not efficient.

If that pattern had continued the power would have leveled out at the march 5 level. In April the Rider got compliant rest; skipped a week of TTT racing and rested; growth slowed but immediately continued. If this rider does the rest week next week as prescribed they will head for great form end of June beginning of July.

Those randos can easily be substituted into a plan. The problem is almost always those people don't substitute then add on; skip rest; then fail, then they incorrectly blame the outdoor ride instead of their unwillingness to take a take a day off. Train Hard and Deep; rest even Deeper and Harder.

Also notice the Dark Blue line; That's pain tolerance / time to exhaustion; the correct rest help move that higher and higher versus loosing ground. That's the famous; "it never gets easier, you just go faster" line. Jason's blue line just naturally goes up and up every-time I've looked at the data; that's a gift for racing by perception.

 

[NeaL]

On the subject of “sandbagging.”

This will probably be somewhat a repeat of last year’s Time Trial, where I do the first ride after months of not riding. Then do remarkably better the 2nd time. Just like what happened last year.

On my first ride I wore a face covering. My breathing passage didn’t get as dry as usual, but I felt winded due to the restricted air flow. I also downshifted onto my smaller front ring whenever I felt like I was struggling. But then my chain derailed on one of those shifts. I was also fighting a lot of 25mph sustained winds.

My 2nd ride, I stayed on that front ring out of fear of another derailment. I just gritted my teeth and pushed harder. That probably made me go faster overall but I was struggling to keep going during those last four miles. There was also just gentle breezes the whole time. And I rode with no face covering this time so I was able to breathe a lot easier.

My times will level out more as these Time Trial rides progress but I’ll probably always have the slowest times again, just like last year.

 

[trplay]

Hello, my name is Hardy. I am a bikaholic, I don't ride for fitness. I don't ride for health. I don't ride for medals or fame. I ride because it's fun. I've seen 1,000's of those other guys come and go. They rarely last. Meanwhile my last ride was the best one yet. What's in your wallet?

 

[RojoRacing]

Hello, my name is Hardy. I am a bikaholic, I don't ride for fitness. I don't ride for health. I don't ride for medals or fame. I ride because it's fun. I've seen 1,000's of those other guys come and go. They rarely last. Meanwhile my last ride was the best one yet. What's in your wallet?

Hi my name is Jason I like to ride for food and scary descents. I’ve recently joined the MCA(moose clans anonymous) my TT for week number 3 was slower than week two. I hope we can become good friends.

 

[trplay]

Hi my name is Jason I like to ride for food and scary descents. I’ve recently joined the MCA(moose clans anonymous) my TT for week number 3 was slower than week two. I hope we can become good friends.

My training plan had me peaking two weeks ago and I hit the mark spot on. Success had to be due to the five year rest phase leading up to the record smashing run. Now I'm in another rest phase until 10 may 2025.

 

[ratz]

Hello, my name is Hardy. I am a bikaholic, I don't ride for fitness. I don't ride for health. I don't ride for medals or fame. I ride because it's fun. I've seen 1,000's of those other guys come and go. They rarely last. Meanwhile my last ride was the best one yet. What's in your wallet?

I train in the hope of riding with you and appearing to be in less pain, sometimes it works.

 

[trplay]

I train in the hope of riding with you and appearing to be in less pain, sometimes it works.

Well, you have another chance tomorrow. Just get ready to pull my butt around the course as long as I can hold on. And bring a buddy, we are one rider short!

 

[RojoRacing]

It's not really the Rando's that are the problem when people that aren't natures try to train or do structured training; it's the obsession with going hard and not resting that gets to them. They "get" the I must train part, but they don't "get" the I must rest part.

Here is some training data from a real person (not me) that was zwifting and pseudo training. Until April it was over train, crash hard the energy system; then loose gains; push hard to get going then fade. Almost like falling off the end of the pace line and having to punch to get back on; just not efficient.

If that pattern had continued the power would have leveled out at the march 5 level. In April the Rider got compliant rest; skipped a week of TTT racing and rested; growth slowed but immediately continued. If this rider does the rest week next week as prescribed they will head for great form end of June beginning of July.

Those randos can easily be substituted into a plan. The problem is almost always those people don't substitute then add on; skip rest; then fail, then they incorrectly blame the outdoor ride instead of their unwillingness to take a take a day off. Train Hard and Deep; rest even Deeper and Harder.

Also notice the Dark Blue line; That's pain tolerance / time to exhaustion; the correct rest help move that higher and higher versus loosing ground. That's the famous; "it never gets easier, you just go faster" line. Jason's blue line just naturally goes up and up every-time I've looked at the data; that's a gift for racing by perception.

View attachment 9462

:lol don't look at my graph for the last 6 months, you'll only shake your head in disappointment at how far I've fallen in my period of depressed laziness. On the bright side I'm gaining fitness just as fast as I lost it according to my graph.

 

[paco1961]

For me, no matter philosophical approach, it’s all about heart rate. I have ridden some w power meters and there are certainly plenty of things you can get from a pm you can’t get from hr data, but for regulating effort during a race/ride, hr is all I use. I know if I hit 175 I have about 7-10 minutes before I’m practically calling UberX. Used to be 185 years ago but time does march on. If I need that effort for 2-4 minutes to bridge a gap or power over the crest of a hill I know I will need 5 minutes of descent or sitting on back of a group to recover but recover I can. I can’t maintain 165 for hours but can for 30 minute bits spaced here and there over several hours. At 150 I can ride several hours. Any finer scale tuning of my energy management will require that I retire to be able to spend the requisite time on it.

 

[ElyDave]

I appreciate what @RojoRacing writes about his effort...often known as "fly and die". It's a romantic approach to riding hard. It makes you feel kind of macho. It also gives you a built-in excuse for failing to meet your target. But it is less likely to lead to the best times that you are capable of. Let me explain, and I emphasize that I mean no disrespect to Jason, I just want to suggest an alternative approach for those with a different mindset.

My background is in rowing, specifically on the indoor machine often called the "erg". We have organized indoor competitions attracting thousands of competitors, leading up to annual world championship races. I'm an ex-world champion in my age group, and until a few months ago held my age-group world record (65+), so I have some relevant experience. I'll never be a competitive bike racer because I'm too big and too old, but honestly I like riding on Zwift much better that rowing on the erg.

On the erg you have nothing to look at but the "power meter" in front of your face that shows your pace, both instantaneous and cumulative. Races are about 7 minutes long, so they are 70% aerobic and thus a little different from the 30-minute time trials that we are engaged in, but close enough that I think the same principles apply. Virtually every world record, and every championship race for many years, has been won by a competitor rowing even splits or negative splits (getting faster as the race progresses). Fly-and-die simply doesn't work, and I think there are two reasons. First is the exhaustion buildup in your legs, perhaps due to lactic acid or other reasons. You can ignore it in the beginning of the race because you feel pretty good, but it's happening behind the scenes anyway, and you will inevitably pay for it later. Second, there is a mental game going on and it's hard to exert yourself for very long at the edge of your capability.

If you have been riding with power meters for long, and testing your FTP, you have a very good idea of what you are capable of on a given day. Sure, there will be some variation due to "sensations" or your mindset, but the variation will be less than you might think. You will have more consistent results by riding with your power meter (the "Chris Froome" approach) vs. the how-I-feel approach (Alberto Contador). It's not as exciting but it works better because you disperse your energy in a flat power distribution throughout the whole ride, ideally ending up spent at the very end.

When I do a rowing race, which is 2000 meters, I usually break it into 4 intervals, looking at my time for the first 800m, next 600m, next 400m, and final 200m sprint. The first 800m is done at 1 second per 500m over my overall target pace. That makes it feel relatively easy, and almost halfway through the race I'm still feeling pretty good. Then I drop it to my target average pace for the next 600m. Third is 400m at 1 second below target pace. Sprinting at the end can shoot for 2 seconds below. This is not even pacing, it is negative splitting. It works for me because it minimizes my time in the "agonizing pain" zone.

This is harder to do on the bike because there is no cumulative power reading so it's hard to tell whether you are ahead or behind your target. Also there is a lot of variation in each pedal turn, unlike on the rowing machine which is pretty steady. But by watching the power readings continuously, or by taking times at various milestones, you can get a pretty good idea of how you are doing and adjust accordingly. This is why I think that taking a "watch the power meter" approach and try to ride even or negative splits will lead to the best times for most people. I urge you to try it.

I'm with this approach as well, I don't erg much these days but did so regularly for a long while, never quite got that elusive sub-7, but close. Much like you my best times came from flat or negative splitting, adn that's the approach I take to TT's as well, using HR as a guage of my effort as I don't have a power meter. My turbo trainer does have an accurate power meter though and I follow a structured plan on it over the winter, so I have a good idea where my HR should be and what is sustainable. What's going on outside the bike I can't control, but I do have a rough plan in my head as to where I'll be pushing hard, where I'm just trying to maintain, where I expect to lose or gain time etc.

For me Week 1 was OK, but on tired legs
Week 2 was windy, but oh so close! only 2 secs down
Week 3 - today was probably the best day, but I couldn't get out. Otherwise it's been even windier and the weekend will be worse. This week I was the nail!

 

[markciccio]

I have made a video with some analisys of my first two rides, week 1 and week 2:

 

[RojoRacing]

I have made a video with some analisys of my first two rides, week 1 and week 2:

as you said it’s dependent on each recumbent and as I always point out it is not as simple as how much it is reclined but overall how good the ergonomics are for power. Too many bent riders try to blame their lack of power on a recumbent just because it’s a recumbent and not because it’s not optimized to fit them to take advantage of power. You said yourself you could make changes to make it better if you choose to.

I’ve shown many times that my power between my standard bikes and V20 are so close to the same that it’s impossible to know which bike I rode by just looking at the data. I can do that because I made sure when building my bike I didn’t compromise at all on the performance of its ergonomics for control and power. Many could argue my V20 isn’t as aero as something like what you ride and they’re probably right. In the other hand what you ride probably would be as good for me descending technical mountains, which is more important to me than aero.

 

[markciccio]

Yes, in fact I will use three different bikes for these tests, just to have the most representative picture of all: a road bike, a replica of the V20 but with an optimized position for climbs (something similar to your V20 setup, I think) and that low racer. An optimized position on the bike and a specific training is of course primary. For example in the first week, with the low racer, I reached 265W average power, in the second 285W and today 300W. So I am costantly getting closer to the road bike average power (329W). And this is mainly due to the training of the last three weeks. The question is: can I achieve the average power of the road bike? I think it will be easy on the high racer, more difficult on the low racer, But I will try.

 

[LarryOz]

Yes, in fact I will use three different bikes for these tests, just to have the most representative picture of all: a road bike, a replica of the V20 but with an optimized position for climbs (something similar to your V20 setup, I think) and that low racer. An optimized position on the bike and a specific training is of course primary. For example in the first week, with the low racer, I reached 265W average power, in the second 285W and today 300W. So I am costantly getting closer to the road bike average power (329W). And this is mainly due to the training of the last three weeks. The question is: can I achieve the average power of the road bike? I think it will be easy on the high racer, more difficult on the low racer, But I will try.

Everybody is different, but in my tests I have proven (at least for me), that I loose power making capabilities as I lay in a more reclined position. There might be some amount of "training" in a position that might give your body the ability to adapt to its highest power level at that position. I also believe that laying in a more reclined position the body has more trouble getting and delivering Oxygen to the muscles. I suspect this is also impacted by age somewhat and may explain why someone as young as Jason may not have the same experience. I have much data from experimenting between a 30 degree to a 20 degree position on 2 different Cruzbike models, and I also have a lot of data experimenting between a 20 degrees to 10 degrees on similar platforms. I do not have a lot of data between a bent to an upright, only to say that it appears to be much easier to make a hold a certain power level son an upright platform compared to a bent.
Most recently I rode for about 500 hour son a 10 degree recline, much of the time pushing only 100 watts to develop endurance. When switching to a 20 degree see, my power for the same level of exertion jumped to 120 watts.
Like I said when I started, everyone is different and there is no right or wrong answered. In the end each of us finds out what works best for us. For me some of the pleasures of the exercise is testing, collecting and interpreting data.

 

[paco1961]

My lung capacity on a recumbent is about 6% better compared to a DF and that DF lung capacity was measured while on the hoods. In the drops it was even worse. On Cruzbikes I can generate higher watts on my S40 when compared to my V20 and on the S can climb a fair bit better than on the V. On the flats, despite the tendency to slightly lower watt output on the V, at the same power output I’m still somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0mph faster. I would expect w more tinkering and training on the V, performance will improve in several areas.

 

[ElyDave]

I think we are talking about both ergonomic factors driving absolute potential, and habituation which is about how that potential is delivered, then you can go and throw on top the aerodynamics. I did all of my winter turbo trainer sessions on the upright with reasonably regular S40 sessions on the road. According to the data my FTP did increase, but it's still a good FTP for a 45 year old, whatever my VO2. Feeling a lack of 'bent legs, I then swapped them round for about 6 weeks until the weather improved again. I immediately noticed a power drop on the S40 on the turbo vs the upright on the same sessions, which on the turbo translates directly to lower indicated speed as it doesn't account for the type of bike. About 6 weeks later there was a degree of adaptation, but not up to the same levels.

Now swapping back again, I seem to be quicker on the road on the S40, and holding higher power on the turbo on the upright, so there has been adaptation in both directions. The difficulty of riding both of course is that you never adapt optimally to either.

I really should do another FTP test, but they hurt soooo much

 

[markciccio]

Everybody is different, but in my tests I have proven (at least for me), that I loose power making capabilities as I lay in a more reclined position. There might be some amount of "training" in a position that might give your body the ability to adapt to its highest power level at that position. I also believe that laying in a more reclined position the body has more trouble getting and delivering Oxygen to the muscles. I suspect this is also impacted by age somewhat and may explain why someone as young as Jason may not have the same experience. I have much data from experimenting between a 30 degree to a 20 degree position on 2 different Cruzbike models, and I also have a lot of data experimenting between a 20 degrees to 10 degrees on similar platforms. I do not have a lot of data between a bent to an upright, only to say that it appears to be much easier to make a hold a certain power level son an upright platform compared to a bent.
Most recently I rode for about 500 hour son a 10 degree recline, much of the time pushing only 100 watts to develop endurance. When switching to a 20 degree see, my power for the same level of exertion jumped to 120 watts.
Like I said when I started, everyone is different and there is no right or wrong answered. In the end each of us finds out what works best for us. For me some of the pleasures of the exercise is testing, collecting and interpreting data.

Have you made a summary table of these data? I mean power vs angle of seat on the highest power lever you can sustain for a defined time. I also think that 20-25 minutes effort is a good test because in that time the lactate begins to accumulate and infact the FTP test is usually a 20 minutes effort. And infact this "virtual" 12 miles competition is a good occasion to collect many different, interesting and easy to repeat data.
I would like to make something very similar and would be nice to confront directly yours and mine values. We have very similar physical shape and power capability, so would be very interesting.

 

[LarryOz]

Have you made a summary table of these data? I mean power vs angle of seat on the highest power lever you can sustain for a defined time. I also think that 20-25 minutes effort is a good test because in that time the lactate begins to accumulate and infact the FTP test is usually a 20 minutes effort. And infact this "virtual" 12 miles competition is a good occasion to collect many different, interesting and easy to repeat data.
I would like to make something very similar and would be nice to confront directly yours and mine values. We have very similar physical shape and power capability, so would be very interesting.

I have some of the data in spreadsheet format and will send it to you via email Marco
As for similar physicality and power - you are too kind - as I can only aspire to come close to yours as a personal goal. I fear the only excuse I can use is "old age"!

 

[Brad R]

I have a question about cleat position.

I have been riding for years with sandals with the cleat as far toward the back of the foot as I can get it without modifying the shoe. The cleats are between the ball and the arch. I was using elliptical rings on my previous bike. I am using circular rings on this bike.

Yesterday and today, I rode with my old mountain biking shoes. The cleats are farther forward. On the recumbent it feels like they are a little bit in front of the ball of the foot. I think they feel like they are under the ball of the foot on my mountain bike.

I felt like I could climb better. (All my climbs are short (less 4 minutes. Usually less than 2 minutes.) More ankling allowing a higher cadence? Recruiting more or different muscles?

However, in almost perfect weather and road surface conditions, I was only a few seconds ahead of last week’s time on the TT and last week I lost time to the wind and water over the road. I was 40 seconds slower than 3 weeks ago in similar weather conditions when I was testing the route the week before week 1.

With my ankle joint lower (call it 2cm), it feels like having a lower bottom bracket. With the pedal closer to the toes, I need to engage more muscle to transfer the force from my ankle (leg) to the pedals. I think both of these factors exposed weakness in muscle groups that I haven’t been using as much as I needed to today.

With training, will I be able to get my speed back up? Or, do I need to move the cleats closer to mid foot to have any chance of getting the same performance?

Generally, what is the effect of the fore-aft positioning of the cleats? Is there a “best”? Or is it an everybody is different? Or, does it just take some hours of training for a new position to feel natural?

Before you ask, I am giving my riding sandals to my son for when he is riding my trike and we are riding together (at least until he outgrows them). So I got out my rarely used MTB shoes for myself. I don’t know if I can move the cleats on these shoes as they have been in the same place for 20 years. If I do move them, I would have to move them back on the rare occasions when I do ride my MTB in order to avoid tire-toe interference.

The answer might be a new pair of shoes or sandals for me, but I am curious to try to understand the contrast of feeling that I could power up the hills (2-4 minute effort) better but that my 36+ minute effort was less effective. And I am hoping to learn from your collective wisdom so that I don’t have to do a long series of experiments.

Thanks,
Brad